Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Oh, I see. You have conveniently substituted the word "rule" with the totally different word "destroy". Cute. But no dice. They aren't the same words, nor do they mean the same thing.

Unless you have the preposterous view that when kings "rule" their people, they are destroying them. lol"

You conveniently twist Gods very plain words, Jesus ruling with a (Rod Of Iron) is (Destruction) of the wicked at his return, as a potter destroy's his clay vessels

No offense, but this is getting just totally ridiculous. You have very clearly equated "rule" with "destroy". So I'm not the one who is conveniently twisting God's very plain words. That belongs to you.

Right before your eye, simple, clear, and easy to understand, and you deny this rod of iron is a tool of destruction, willful ignorance

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

Sure. Kings rule (destroy) those they rule. Nonsense.

As Clearly Seen Below, Jesus Christ Delivers The Fierceness And Wrath Of God, With A Rod Of Iron, BeforeYour Eyes!
Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Discernment is the key to understanding Scripture.

The destruction refers to WHEN Jesus casts those who's names are not in the Book of Life (Rev 20:15). Since Jesus will be ON that GWT, He surely will be ruling with a rod of iron.

But not before. Sure, about half of the world's population will be killed during the time of the Tribulation, and that is about God's wrath, but that's NOT about Christ ruling with a rod of iron.

What you persist in rejecting is that Rev 20 clearly speaks of 1,000 years, multiple times. You can deny all you want, but it's there, clear as crystal. And since Jesus IS King of kings, and Lord of lords, you can bet your bottom dollar that He will be ruling the nations for 1,000 years, then Satan is loosed from prison for a short time, to again deceive the nations (all on earth, obviously) and then Jesus defeats Satan and the Beast and casts them into the lake of fire, and THEN sits on the GWT and judges all the unbelievers from all of history.

And you are free to deny whatever you want.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""But there isn't any solid scripture that says the rapture happens pre-tribulation.""

You omit.
Your stand is a stand ON OMISSION.

Once the REST OF THE VERSES (the ones you leave out) are on the table.
Postrib rapture is destroyed.

No. What is destroyed is the obvious rejection of Scripture. You keep insisting the rapture is pre-trib, but you have FAILED to provide a single verse that Jesus takes those who belong to Him back to heaven.

It is that simple.

It sure is.

Still not convinced?

Nope.

The dialogue at the last supper plus rev 19 should do it.

Please explain what you think the last supper and Rev 19 prove.

Still not convinced???

I am convinced of Scripture, but not your imagination.

Jesus used lot and Noah as examples of his return.
And he framed both as PREJUDGEMENT...uh,that equals pretrib rapture.
100% pretrib rapture. The verses you requested.

Wow. What a leap.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh you guys definitely have convinced yourselves.

No, Scripture convinces us to know that the rapture occurs when Jesus returns to earth at the end of the Trib.

But keep noting that your stand does not have any traction once the rapture verses are factored in.

So when are you going to provide any?

The second coming on white horses is NOT THE RAPTURE...as I have proven hands down.

You've proven nothing at all.

Matt 24-
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

This establishes that the context is about the Tribulation.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

These verses establish Christ's Second Coming.

Now for the key verse about the Second Coming.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

There it is: loud trumpet and the gathering of His elect (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23).

Proven.

Yes. You have been proven to be incorrect.

 

[Truth7t7]

@Truth7t7 ,

No, I really do not see what it is about my posts, you're pointing out this time, that are so different from your own recent posts... I'm just trying to follow in your pristine foot-steps:there ya go

--your Post #1114 - your use of bold and (parenthesis) and italics and blue-colored links - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4488793

--your Post #1120 - your use of bold and CAPS and a number of (parentheses) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4488902

--your Post #1141 - your use of numerous (parentheses) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4489882

(but... you can be assured Eye have already had a tracker on it, for a long time, so "your" [sic] not the only one --the jig is up, man)

There ya go, thats readable

 

[Truth7t7]

[pre-tribber, here (me ) ]

Abs, what do you perceive the following verse to be about? (I may have asked you before, but I forget, lol ) :

"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." - Daniel 12:12

A mystery to me, what do you believe the 1,335 is?

 

[Truth7t7]

IOW it is a fact that the coming on white horses of rev 19 WITH THE SAINTS WHO ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN and have become the wife IN HEAVEN....
CAN NOT POSSIBLY BE the rapture.

All the rapture verses are framed in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT dynamic.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Revelation 19 is nothing more than the"Second Coming" day of the Lord

Rev 19:1-10 is a prelude to the movie, showing the result or end of the movie at the beginning of the story

Rev 19:11-21 shows the day ofthe Lord returning to battle in the second coming (The End)

The Marriage supper takes place after (The Day Of The Lord) in his Second Coming

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes there are postrib return verses. He comes with millions of saints On HORSES.

But gathers his saints pretrib.
IN MAT 24 BEFORE THE FLOOD.
BEFORE THE FLOOD
BEFORE SODOM DESTROYED.
That one coming deal is so very debunked.
Totally debunked

Is all the scripture shows below,is that the living Church is removed (Rapture/Catching Up) as Lot was removed from Sodom, "Before" Gods fire in destruction

Yes when Jesus Christ is "Revealed" in the Second Coming its fire time!

"Destroyed Them All"!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Oh you guys definitely have convinced yourselves.

But keep noting that your stand does not have any traction once the rapture verses are factored in.

You just did that once again.
The second coming on white horses is NOT THE RAPTURE...as I have proven hands down.

Proven.

You haven't proved a pre-trib rapture,only in your own imagination

 

[Truth7t7]

""But there isn't any solid scripture that says the rapture happens pre-tribulation.""

You omit.
Your stand is a stand ON OMISSION.

Once the REST OF THE VERSES (the ones you leave out) are on the table.
Postrib rapture is destroyed.

It is that simple.

Omission.
Your deal is omission.

""This wouldn't even be a debate if there was a clear verse saying the rapture is an event entirely separate from the return of Christ""

Huh???

Oh yeah. That in fact also destroys postrib rapture.
Rev 14 should do it (if we do not tamper with the scripture)
But mat 25,plus acts 1 should be enough.

Still not convinced?
The dialogue at the last supper plus rev 19 should do it.

Still not convinced???
Jesus used lot and Noah as examples of his return.
And he framed both as PREJUDGEMENT...uh,that equals pretrib rapture.
100% pretrib rapture. The verses you requested.

But no...you will ignore all of that. You will not go there.


What about the AC?
Is that also omitted????

Psssst...he KILLS ALL REFUSING THE MARK.
ALL DIE OR TAKE THE MARK.
Yet another roadblock for a postrib rapture.
Yes. He kills all christians.

You have no case at all

You claim Matthew 25 shows a pre-trib rapture?

Please provide your scripture and explanation, "Waiting"?

 

[Truth7t7]

I said:
"Oh, I see. You have conveniently substituted the word "rule" with the totally different word "destroy". Cute. But no dice. They aren't the same words, nor do they mean the same thing.

Unless you have the preposterous view that when kings "rule" their people, they are destroying them. lol"

No offense, but this is getting just totally ridiculous. You have very clearly equated "rule" with "destroy". So I'm not the one who is conveniently twisting God's very plain words. That belongs to you.


Sure. Kings rule (destroy) those they rule. Nonsense.


Discernment is the key to understanding Scripture.

The destruction refers to WHEN Jesus casts those who's names are not in the Book of Life (Rev 20:15). Since Jesus will be ON that GWT, He surely will be ruling with a rod of iron.

But not before. Sure, about half of the world's population will be killed during the time of the Tribulation, and that is about God's wrath, but that's NOT about Christ ruling with a rod of iron.

What you persist in rejecting is that Rev 20 clearly speaks of 1,000 years, multiple times. You can deny all you want, but it's there, clear as crystal. And since Jesus IS King of kings, and Lord of lords, you can bet your bottom dollar that He will be ruling the nations for 1,000 years, then Satan is loosed from prison for a short time, to again deceive the nations (all on earth, obviously) and then Jesus defeats Satan and the Beast and casts them into the lake of fire, and THEN sits on the GWT and judges all the unbelievers from all of history.

And you are free to deny whatever you want.

You deny that the word (Rule) is in (Judgement) of the wicked, (Destruction) by a (Rod Of Iron) as a potter destroys his vessels

Just One Example, Of A Ruler And Judge, Moses.

Acts 7:35KJV
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Right before your eye, simple, clear, and easy to understand, and you deny this rod of iron is a tool of destruction, willful ignorance

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

As Clearly Seen Below, Jesus Christ Delivers The Fierceness And Wrath Of God, With A Rod Of Iron, Before Your Eyes!

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The Horse Is Really Dead, Its All Yours!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Oh, I see. You have conveniently substituted the word "rule" with the totally different word "destroy". Cute. But no dice. They aren't the same words, nor do they mean the same thing.

You deny that the word (Rule) is in (Judgement) of the wicked, (Destruction) by a (Rod Of Iron) as a potter destroys his vessels

Yes, I DO deny what you imagine. Absolutely. Jesus is King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Kings RULE the people under him. Jesus will rule the world, obviously.

Just One Example, Of A Ruler And Judge, Moses.

Acts 7:35KJV
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

How does this help your imagination? Though the people rejected Moses, as a ruler and judge, he certainly WAS their ruler and judge. So what is your point?

Right before your eye, simple, clear, and easy to understand, and you deny this rod of iron is a tool of destruction, willful ignorance

No, the obvious ignorance here is denying that Jesus will rule the nations for 1,000 years.

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

No. In the case of Jesus' Millennial rule over the nations for 1,000 years, it means the rule will be strict.

How strict, you MIGHT ask? Very strict. In fact, Jesus has given us a very clear glimpse into His strict rule in Matt 5

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

This verse prophesies that Jesus lived a perfect life. He fulfilled the law perfectly. Unlike any other human being.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

This verse refers to the future, specifically Rev 21:1 when AFTER the Millennial rule, the present earth will be dissolved and a new heaven and earth will be created.

And now, for just how strict Jesus' Millennial rule will be, in His own words:

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

In the OT, those who violated the law were judged. But during the Millennium, those who break the spirit of the law will be judged.

You may not grasp the difference, but judging someone for violating the spirit of the law (what they think) is WAY MORE strict than just judging those who violate the letter of the law.

As Clearly Seen Below, Jesus Christ Delivers The Fierceness And Wrath Of God, With A Rod Of Iron, Before Your Eyes!

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

These verses refer to the battle of Armageddon, when Jesus returns to earth, before He sets up His 1,000 reign.

The Horse Is Really Dead, Its All Yours!

Your horse is deader than a doornail. lol

 

[saintrose]

I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

""Hebrews 9:28

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I know you like KJV so here it is

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.""

Yes. His first mission was to defeat sin.

And at the rapture he collects his spotless bride.

Good pretrib verses
Ty

You've consistently failed to prove anything on a scriptural basis.
All you have done is keep insisting that an extra-biblical doctrine must be believed.
This isn't bible study or exploration of prophetic themes.

You are relying on speculative dogmatism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.

... we get our English word "RAPTURE" from the Latin Vulgate translation of this SAME WORD which is translated from the same Greek "harpazo [G726]" word (used in 1Th4:17 - harpagēsometha [G726]).


The SAME 14 occurrences of the Latin word "rapio [and variants]" (i.e. our English word 'rapture') as its exact Greek word "harpazo / harpagēsometha" (G726), shown in the Latin Vulgate (approx. 400ad), below:


1) Matthew 11:12 - "A diebus autem Joannis Baptistæ usque nunc, regnum cælorum vim patitur, et violenti rapiunt [G726] illud."

- https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/latin_vulgate_textus_receptus_king_james/matthew/mat11.htm


2) Matthew 12:29 ['STEAL [/snatch/take-by-force] his goods'] - "Aut quomodo potest quisquam intrare in domum fortis, et vasa ejus diripere [G726], nisi prius alligaverit fortem? et tunc domum illius diripiet [<--made up of G1223 dia and G726 harpazo]."

- https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/latin_vulgate_textus_receptus_king_james/matthew/mat12.htm


____________


Aside from that, Paul speaks of this more than in merely the ONE verse (meaning, in 1Th4:17; though that particular Grk word is only found here in his two Thessalonian epistles); rather, he refers to this item we commonly call "Rapture" using other terms and phrases something like 8-10 times in these two epistles.

 

[cv5]

Perhaps You Need To Understand, Jesus Christ Returns, Appears, Reveals, in Fire and (Final Judgement)

You Give Total (Disregard) The Scripture Below, (Why)?

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

2 Thessalonians 7:8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yes, there will indeed be a millennial reign on the earth. The nation Israel will be redeemed.
The descendants of David and of the Levites will be in the land.
Note the unequivocal terms: seed. nation. sons. descendants.

Jer 31:35-37
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):

“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Jer 33:17-22
“For thus says the LORD: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
‘nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ”

And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

“Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season,

‘then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”

 

[cv5]

We all have the same scriptures.
There is no verse that states he returns to gather- then he returns with a bride at another time.
If there was one you could show it.

You say we have no case because you are holding up Pre-trib doctrine as fact, then measuring everything according to that.
If we study the word without the lens of doctrine it speaks for itself.

Hebrews 9:28

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I know you like KJV so here it is

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The Gathering.
2 Thess 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
This term used TWICE, always of the Church.
https://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm

Jude 1:14
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
https://biblehub.com/greek/agio_n_40.htm
“to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Rev 19:14
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(See Rev 3:4-5, 18, Rev 4:4)

 

[cv5]

^ @Truth7t7 , I thought you said I could bold for emphasis (like you yourself use).


BTW, the blue in that post is the auto-links... I didn't change them to blue myself.
You yourself use bold and color, so it can't be that. ( )

And the italics shows the different language (namely, Greek, as opposed to the English... like most editors use, to differentiate). JFYI

When you paste with your mouse, "paste as"...."plain text", using third mouse button options. You can also change the default.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The Gathering.
2 Thess 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
This term used TWICE, always of the Church.
https://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm

[/QUOTE]
concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Exactly.
His coming and our gathering.
We are gathered at his second coming. Just like it says.
Absolutely disqualifies pretrib theory.

 

[cv5]

A mystery to me, what do you believe the 1,335 is?

Verses pertaining to the Millennial reign. A gradual deliberate reconstruction reclaiming and terraforming of a planet ravaged by judgments. Same goes for the 1290 days...probably.

Good summary here. See "Changes in the topography of Jerusalem" halfway down the page. Jerusalem will be the tallest mountain. Possibly in the world. The great earthquakes of the Tribulation will literally knock mountains to rubble. The topography, climate and ecology of the world will be much more like before the flood.

http://www.johnsnotes.com/archives/Millennium-Changes_in_the_Land.htm

 

[cv5]

The Gathering.
2 Thess 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
This term used TWICE, always of the Church.
https://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm

Gathering by gradual waves of beheadings? Spaced out over 7 years of Gods wrath? Absolutely not.
We (the Church) are gathered INSTANTANEOUSLY, VIOLENTLY by a snatching, and all at once.
Furthermore, we are not appointed to wrath. The Tribulation is the time of Gods prophesied wrath.
We are undoubtedly the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5. The Bride has been SNATCHED AWAY by the Son to abide and be hidden from the time of wrath.

Isa 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This trumpet is the trumpet of assembly. (see 2 Thess 2)
Not the trumpet of alarm, not the trumpet of battle, not the trumpet of judgment.