The Books of Enoch.

[KingdomBrat]

so you say ?

Jude said, Enoch Prophesied...[14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these]...

Jude never implies if the Prophecy of Enoch was from Oral or Written Tradition.

 

[CS1]

The 2 verses of Scripture I presented to you where you replied to Luke, was from Jesus. He quoted 4 verses and said, Ye have HEARD, [or] Ye who have Read. He did not use this is Scripture. So Christ's example where He uses NO SCRIPTURE reference is just as equal to when He did in Luke.

Context yo why Jesus said before and immediately after " Ye have heard " or "it is said"

The Pharisees or scribes were the ones most of the time if not all tried to use what to trap Jesus? The book of Enoch? Nope.

The Law and writings of Moses and the Major Prophets. But Jesus always followed up with after those came to him with these traps

BUT I SAY UNTO YOU! When the devil came to Jesus in Luke chapter four to tempt him Jesus said, " it is written" who did he quote? Enoch or Moses?
We know Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 Every Time when Jesus said it is written we can find it in the bible

Deuteronomy, Psalms, Jeremiah, Isaiah, the words of King David, Moses, and others.

when Jesus says " Ye have heard one must go and see what he was talking about because Jesu was dealing with hearsay with what was Actually written and HE quoted it.

 

[CS1]

Jude has 25 Verses but only 2 are concerning Enoch. I am [only] referencing those 2 verses. Not sure why the rest of Jude matters towards Enoch?

I'm not sure why the rest don't matter it is the word of God? If Enoch is going to be perceived at inspired by God for only two verses in the Bible should we not look at all Jude wrote to draw out what the Holy Spirit is trying to say to those Jude wrote to?

But if we build only two verses Enoch is 100% inspired when we don't have a fraction of proof of the Book of Enoch that we have of Jude and Jude is the brother of James who also was an Apostle.

 

[CS1]

Technically, Genesis mentions 2 Enoch's, one being the son of Cain.
I am only discussing the man who did not die like Elijah and was caught up like Elijah.

the Enoch of the Bible, not the book of Enoch that someone took his name written between the time of Malachi and Matthew
Walked with God and was no more God took him.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Context yo why Jesus said before and immediately after " Ye have heard " or "it is said"

The Pharisees or scribes were the ones most of the time if not all tried to use what to trap Jesus? The book of Enoch? Nope.

The Law and writings of Moses and the Major Prophets. But Jesus always followed up with after those came to him with these traps

BUT I SAY UNTO YOU! When the devil came to Jesus in Luke chapter four to tempt him Jesus said, " it is written" who did he quote? Enoch or Moses?
We know Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 Every Time when Jesus said it is written we can find it in the bible

Deuteronomy, Psalms, Jeremiah, Isaiah, the words of King David, Moses, and others.

when Jesus says " Ye have heard one must go and see what he was talking about because Jesu was dealing with hearsay with what was Actually written and HE quoted it.

What does my post you quote have to do with Enoch?

 

[KingdomBrat]

I'm not sure why the rest don't matter it is the word of God? If Enoch is going to be perceived at inspired by God for only two verses in the Bible should we not look at all Jude wrote to draw out what the Holy Spirit is trying to say to those Jude wrote to?

But if we build only two verses Enoch is 100% inspired when we don't have a fraction of proof of the Book of Enoch that we have of Jude and Jude is the brother of James who also was an Apostle.

If you read Jude, leading into verse 14, Jude does tie Enoch's Prophecy to earlier verses. It's all relative to Jude's Viewpoint here.

 

[CS1]

What does my post you quote have to do with Enoch?

what does your response of " Ye have HEARD, [or] Ye who have Read. " have to do with Enoch?

 

[CS1]

If you read Jude, leading into verse 14, Jude does tie Enoch's Prophecy to earlier verses. It's all relative to Jude's Viewpoint here.

Jude:4-
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5. But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7. as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10. But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

12. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13. raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15. “to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
16. These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
17. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:



I'm not so sure the book of Enoch is being endorsed by Jude with the Commandment You remember the words which were SPOKEN BEFORE by Enoch! Oh wait, NO! Jude says BY the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude is addressing the Gnostics of his day who have crept into the church " For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

something is amiss here. But Jude after quoting "the book of Enoch" said :

. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[KingdomBrat]

what does your response of " Ye have HEARD, [or] Ye who have Read. " have to do with Enoch?

Nothing, it has to do with sometimes Jesus would say to his audience [" Ye have HEARD, [or] Ye who have Read"] in reference to "This is Scripture" without using the word Scripture to indicate what He is quoting. In the example of Matthew 5, 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill. Jesus is quoting 1 of the 10 Commandments, and using it to His audience as ORAL Tradition. We know the 10 Commandments as literal Commands from God to man found in Exodus. But Jesus does not say in the Book of Exodus, He says, [Ye have HEARD that IT WAS SAID].

 

[KingdomBrat]

Jude:4-
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5. But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7. as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10. But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

12. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13. raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15. “to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
16. These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
17. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:



I'm not so sure the book of Enoch is being endorsed by Jude with the Commandment You remember the words which were SPOKEN BEFORE by Enoch! Oh wait, NO! Jude says BY the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude is addressing the Gnostics of his day who have crept into the church " For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

something is amiss here. But Jude after quoting "the book of Enoch" said :

. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Our verse 14 of Jude differs.

Yours:
14. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Mine:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Yours says Enoch prophesied about [these men]

My KJV says Enoch prophesied of [these]


Where did you get MEN at/from?

 

[CS1]

Nothing, it has to do with sometimes Jesus would say to his audience [" Ye have HEARD, [or] Ye who have Read"] in reference to "This is Scripture" without using the word Scripture to indicate what He is quoting. In the example of Matthew 5, 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill. Jesus is quoting 1 of the 10 Commandments, and using it to His audience as ORAL Tradition. We know the 10 Commandments as literal Commands from God to man found in Exodus. But Jesus does not say in the Book of Exodus, He says, [Ye have HEARD that IT WAS SAID].

again you clearly did not see what I said each time Jesus said " Ye have heard" Jesus followed up with " BUT I say unto you".
And when Jesus said it is written it most definitely was " This is scripture ". Jesus was very clear as to what was the law, the word of God or what those have been told as HE said HIS WOES to the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

 

[CS1]

Our verse 14 of Jude differs.

Yours:
14. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Mine:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Yours says Enoch prophesied about [these men]

My KJV says Enoch prophesied of [these]


Where did you get MEN at/from?

I used the NKJV and we can use the NASB or any other you like.

 

[KingdomBrat]

again you clearly did not see what I said each time Jesus said " Ye have heard" Jesus followed up with " BUT I say unto you".
And when Jesus said it is written it most definitely was " This is scripture ". Jesus was very clear as to what was the law, the word of God or what those have been told as HE said HIS WOES to the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

Yes, another example with the Pharisees was over divorce according to Moses. I am just stating to the [AUDIENCE] of Jesus, whom the majority could not read/write, Oral Tradition was how the Scriptures were passed down. They had the Tanakh Scrolls, but not everyone could read them or have access to them.

It would be like going to Church without the existence of a Bible, and hope like eternity the Preacher is telling us the Truth.

 

[KingdomBrat]

I used the NKJV and we can use the NASB or any other you like.

Mine is the online KJV Bible.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[CS1]

Yes, another example with the Pharisees was over divorce according to Moses. I am just stating to the [AUDIENCE] of Jesus, whom the majority could not read/write, Oral Tradition was how the Scriptures were passed down. They had the Tanakh Scrolls, but not everyone could read them or have access to them.

It would be like going to Church without the existence of a Bible, and hope like eternity the Preacher is telling us the Truth.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Does thinking that Enoch prophesied about the 2nd Coming differ when you add MEN?
Now it makes it that Enoch prophesied about Men?

I prefer the KJV best.

 

[CS1]

Does thinking that Enoch prophesied about the 2nd Coming differ when you add MEN?
Now it makes it that Enoch prophesied about Men?

I prefer the KJV best.

if you prefer the KJV because it lines with your mid-set Biblically that is not a good thing, the KJV should be read because it is true.

Jude verse 4 KJV: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude verse 4 NKJV: For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


The context here is the same.

 

[Scribe]

I don't see how anyone can even entertain this nonsense. It seems so perverse and unbelievable.

It is because they are confused by Gen 6:2 not understanding the context of Gen 4:26 and because they have seen that many commentaries have included the angel theory and so they feel intimidated into taking it seriously.

There are those who are seriously wanting to figure out the meaning of Gen 6 and then there are those who have completely left the farm, and invented a total fantasy worthy of a science fiction movie.

They are those who are distracted by fanciful revelations they claim to have seen in between the lines and invent all sorts of explanations about angels and things they have intruded into (in their own minds, not in reality) but really know nothing about. Vainly puffed up about some secret knowledge and trying to get others to become one of the "initiated" elite who have the "secret" code unraveled. These are modern day gnostics and Enoch is one of their favorite hobbies.

Walk away. They oppose themselves.

 

[CS1]

It is because they are confused by Gen 6:2 not understanding the context of Gen 4:26 and because they have seen that many commentaries have included the angel theory and so they feel intimidated into taking it seriously.

There are those who are seriously wanting to figure out the meaning of Gen 6 and then there are those who have completely left the farm, and invented a total fantasy worthy of a science fiction movie.

They are those who are distracted by fanciful revelations they claim to have seen in between the lines and invent all sorts of explanations about angels and things they have intruded into (in their own minds, not in reality) but really know nothing about. Vainly puffed up about some secret knowledge and trying to get others to become one of the "initiated" elite who have the "secret" code unraveled. These are modern day gnostics and Enoch is one of their favorite hobbies.

Walk away. They oppose themselves.

What I can't wrap my head around and I spoke to my pastor yesterday about this topic, how is it we have such a great scientific approach to the textual criticism 66 books of the bible, yet we ignore the Book of Enoch or fail to hold it in the same measurement as the other 66? Enoch no eyewitness accounts, Not the actual person who wrote the books, came to be during the dark age of God silence between Malichi ----- Matthew.

 

[SophieT]

Walk away. They oppose themselves.

you do not seem able to disagree without putting people down which is why I basically never reply to anything you write

I honestly see that as a weakness on your part. no need to dismiss others that way. you could be wrong. anyone could be wrong.

guess we will all find out one day.