Not By Works

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I'll spell it out: Just as ducklings are to abide in momma duck, lest they be devoured by predators, Jesus "the Vine" commands His Christian "branch" followers to abide in Him, lest we end up in the fire destruction. The Christian can either choose to continually "abide" aka "surrender our will", or cease from doing so and wind up in the fire of destruction.
You do realize Jesus constantly taught spiritual lessons from the natural world, right? Your argument is both irrelevant and asisnine.
That's why I reject religion that limits our experience to only "physical observation and following practices and rules, ect."

I also reject OSAS advocates characterizing their opponents as Legalists because none of us believe salvation can be earned, maintained, or lost by our actions. We believe salvation is accepted and retained by "belief" - but not "trembling demon" belief that OSAS teaches - but true belief that always leads to surrender of the will, per Matthew 26:39 KJV and Luke 22:42 KJV.
no sir. dead wrong.

i am literally looking at the K J V translation of the greek word abide right now, the word meno used over a 100 times , including John 15, and not one definition is to surrender.

it means, as in said earlier, and also what the word plainly means

i mean , i do not have to surrender to my house to abide in my house..


so, i suggest you retract the wrong statement you just made about " abide" meaning " surrender", it clearly does not.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
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No need to apologize, in fact I apologize for being short with you.

It's all about wanting to be like Jesus. Some grow up quicker than others.

Some are growth stunted based on their past hurts and also based on crap they have been fed by their church. I know from experience.

God bless you brother in Jesus.

Bill.
I concur no need for apology from you either my biig brother lol

I like what you said there about “ it’s all about wanting to be like Jesus “ that is it brother he’s our hero and perfect role model, the one we can trust with our everlasting souls . The o e who we can believe and take to the bank his word . Jesus the lord and our very best friend

your one statement there sums up Christianity in my own thinking even when we end up falling short of his glory , we now know that he’s for us and. Not against us and he isn’t willing that we perish

I often think the way we tend to view God is the issue because we think he’s wanting to destroy us for our wrongs , when really he’s reached so far to save us from them

God bless and hold you close bro
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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John:
15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, AND THEY ARE BURNED.
Thats before Jesus comes and abides in believers today . Thats before the cross and he's talking to his diciples . The details matter .
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,269
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the greek word for abide can be translated- to be held, kept continually , to wait for, or wait for someone.

so, letting Christ keep you is abiding.
I love the to be held. :love:
 
Aug 3, 2019
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An Open Letter To Posthuman

Some of you know that I have brought an unanswerable challenge to the doctrine of OSAS by appealing to Matthew 24:12-13 KJV where two classes of people are contrasted: Class A is "the love of many shall wax cold" and Class B is "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." Class B clearly describes those whose love stays warm and alive, allowing them to endure to the end and be saved -- in complete contrast to Class A -- which depicts those whose love grows cold and dead because of iniquity, leaving them unable to endure to the end, and thus lost.

In verse 12, Jesus specifically uses the Greek "agape" to describe the "love" of these many which grows cold in them, which means "unconditional love of God". This proves these "many" can only be Saints -- because sinners by virtue of their spiritual disconnection from God cannot partake of such unconditional, divine, Godly love.

Posthuman has presented a counter argument that any Christian worth the "salt of the Earth" that he is supposed to be should find both shocking and offensive: Sinners are indeed able to partake of agape aka "unconditional, divine, Godly love".

This is heresy, in my opinion, that ranks right up there with the Pope's claim to be "Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh". It is nothing more than an insane leftist attempt to unite the impenitent, wicked carnal with He who is divinely righteous; something the occult world has sought to do since time immemorial. Posthuman supports this claim by pointing out that in several verses of Scripture, "agapao" -- which is the verb form of "agape" -- is used in connection with sinners, such as in John 3:19 KJV where it says "men loved ("agapao") darkness". I informed Posthuman that "agapao" has several different meanings that do not include the concept of "unconditional, Godly love" such as merely "to prefer", and that this is no evidence at all to support his ridiculous claim that the wicked can partake of unconditional, divine, Godly love.

I asked him to write a public retraction for having possibly lead or further ensconced anyone into a belief in OSAS, but he has doubled down. I then challenged him to provide just one single verse in all of Scripture where the love of a wicked person is specifically said to be "agape", and have been waiting three days.

I like Posthuman and I think he is sincere, but sincerely wrong, There is a clearly defined line of demarcation between wickedness and righteousness. The wicked are spiritually dead (1 Timothy 5:6 KJV), cannot obey God's law (Romans 8:7 KJV), and by virtue of that certainly are not able to partake of unconditional, divine, Godly love.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Thats before Jesus comes and abides in believers today . Thats before the cross and he's talking to his diciples . The details matter .
Too bad the text says the exact opposite, right?

"NOW you are clean......I am the Vine, ye are the branches." - John 15:3,5 KJV

See what I did there? I showed you that Jesus was talking to cleaned up Christian branches to whom He commanded to abide in Him.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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no sir. dead wrong.

i am literally looking at the K J V translation of the greek word abide right now, the word meno used over a 100 times , including John 15, and not one definition is to surrender.

it means, as in said earlier, and also what the word plainly means

i mean , i do not have to surrender to my house to abide in my house..


so, i suggest you retract the wrong statement you just made about " abide" meaning " surrender", it clearly does not.
Sorry, but were you really expecting a word used as a euphemism for a thing to be actually defined as that thing? Let's not be obtuse. It's a euphemism for being a slave to Christ our Master, right or wrong?

The sinner's will is surrendered to Satan to do his bidding as his slave...then the goodness of God leads him to repentance, at which time the sinner withdraws his surrendered will from Satan and surrenders it to Christ, making him a slave to Christ, according to Paul.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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no sir. dead wrong.

i am literally looking at the K J V translation of the greek word abide right now, the word meno used over a 100 times , including John 15, and not one definition is to surrender.

it means, as in said earlier, and also what the word plainly means

i mean , i do not have to surrender to my house to abide in my house..


so, i suggest you retract the wrong statement you just made about " abide" meaning " surrender", it clearly does not.
Do people not realize that in order to do all that stuff in bold, one has to first submit aka surrender his will to do these things?

G3306 μένω : "abide" (61X)
  1. to remain, abide
    1. in reference to place
      1. to sojourn, tarry
      2. not to depart
        1. to continue to be present
        2. to be held, kept, continually
    2. in reference to time
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
        1. of persons, to survive, live
    3. in reference to state or condition
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
  2. to wait for, await one
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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Too bad the text says the exact opposite, right?

"NOW you are clean......I am the Vine, ye are the branches." - John 15:3,5 KJV

See what I did there? I showed you that Jesus was talking to cleaned up Christian branches to whom He commanded to abide in Him.
Jesus had that power and authority to forgive sins ect . But not until he went to the cross , the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit did people get redemption . They were not regenerated or indwelt until Acts 2 .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Too bad the text says the exact opposite, right?

"NOW you are clean......I am the Vine, ye are the branches." - John 15:3,5 KJV

See what I did there? I showed you that Jesus was talking to cleaned up Christian branches to whom He commanded to abide in Him.
A believer today has christ in them . He is indwelt by the Holy Spirit . He is always ' abiding ' , permanently. This was not happening until after Acts 2 .
 
Aug 3, 2019
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the greek word for abide can be translated- to be held, kept continually , to wait for, or wait for someone.

so, letting Christ keep you is abiding.
The way I see it, if Jesus commands us to abide, that means we have a choice: we either rebel and do what we want or submit (surrender) our will to Him and do what He says, right or wrong?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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A believer today has christ in them . He is indwelt by the Holy Spirit . He is always ' abiding ' , permanently. This was not happening until after Acts 2 .
So, you agree that Jesus was talking to Christian "clean" branches when He commanded them to "abide in the Vine"....and that it's up to the Christian to either submit his will to Him and obey His command, or to not submit his will and do his own thing...good to know.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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The way I see it, if Jesus commands us to abide, t that means we have a choice: we either rebel and do what we want or submit (surrender) our will to Him and do what He says, right or wrong?
Not a single Christian was in the audience . Are we not distinguished as being in the body of Christ. No Christian was told the things in John 15 ,so why are you applying it as instruction to the Church ( the body of Christ) ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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So, you agree that Jesus was talking to Christian "clean" branches when He commanded them to "abide in the Vine"....and that it's up to the Christian to either submit his will to Him and obey His command, or to not submit his will and do his own thing...good to know.
Not a single Christian was in the audience . Are we not distinguished as being in the body of Christ. No Christian was told the things in John 15 ,so why are you applying it as instruction to the Church ( the body of Christ) ?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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A believer today has christ in them . He is indwelt by the Holy Spirit . He is always ' abiding ' , permanently. This was not happening until after Acts 2 .
"Not my will but Thy will" has been what defines a right relationship with God since Eve's first sin and will be until the close of Earth's probation when the last saint accepts the Savior.

The only change Acts 2 brought was Holy Spirit power to spread the Gospel and edify the church - it had ZERO effect on how we accept, retain, or lose salvation, which has been the same since the beginning: grace through faith in our Savior from sin AND Lord to which we surrender.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Not a single Christian was in the audience . Are we not distinguished as being in the body of Christ. No Christian was told the things in John 15 ,so why are you applying it as instruction to the Church ( the body of Christ) ?
Oh, so Jesus wasn't giving directions to the church when He said "Abide in the Vine"... I guess He wasn't directing the church either when He said, "ye also ought to wash one another's feet" and "this do in remembrance of Me", right? Strange how churches do this all the time, but we're not to "abide in the Vine'", right? :unsure:
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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"Not my will but Thy will" has been what defines a right relationship with God since Eve's first sin and will be until the close of Earth's probation when the last saint accepts the Savior.

The only change Acts 2 brought was Holy Spirit power to spread the Gospel and edify the church - it had ZERO effect on how we accept, retain, or lose salvation, which has been the same since the beginning: grace through faith in our Savior from sin AND Lord to which we surrender.
Therein lies your error . This is a huge presupposition you have that will colour your entire understanding of the bible. I don't say that lightly. //The ONLY ( Emphasis mine ) change Acts 2 brought was Holy Spirit power to spread the Gospel and edify the church - it had ZERO effect on how we accept, retain, or lose salvation, // This has to to date the saddest comment . Wow !! I'm not sure where to begin with that.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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Oh, so when Jesus said "ye ought also to wash one another's feet" and "this do in remembrance of Me", He wasn't giving directions to the church. :unsure:
No . The body of christ was not known until its revealed to Paul. Yes I know there's some wacky churches that do teach foot washing as part of salvation. The ' Church ' is not the ' disciples.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Not a single Christian was in the audience . Are we not distinguished as being in the body of Christ. No Christian was told the things in John 15 ,so why are you applying it as instruction to the Church ( the body of Christ) ?
There IS NO distinction!
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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Oh, so Jesus wasn't giving directions to the church when He said "Abide in the Vine"... I guess He wasn't directing the church either when He said, "ye also ought to wash one another's feet" and "this do in remembrance of Me", right? Strange how churches do this all the time, but we're not to "abide in the Vine'", right? :unsure:
There are no teachings to the body of christ to wash feet . Always check who the verse is addressing.