50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

[plz include reading v.35... as I have done... so you can follow along with what I've put below]



I'm not saying "the wedding" takes place on the earth. I'm saying "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (whose "wedding" ALREADY took place in Heaven), b/c this text (and its parallels) are "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" passages.

And several of those types of contexts speak of the "LAMPS LIT" thing, which in past posts I've explained this speaks to the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period (i.e. the TRIB yrs), aka "the NIGHT WATCHES"... IOW, the "LAMPS LIT" takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period...

And this "LAMPS LIT" issue hails back to references in Scripture such as the following (bearing in mind my posts re: how Matt24:14 / 26:13 speak of that which will be being preached in the future trib years, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [after the Lord removes all of the "LIGHT BULBS," so to speak [i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"], and then the "IN THE NIGHT" [/trib yrs] begins to unfold upon the earth):

[quoting a small portion of those past posts]

[...]
6) Zechariah 4:14 -
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." [SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]


7) Zechariah 6:5 -
"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." [again, SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]

"olive-trees" (one word in Hebrew, in the passages below) -

The same word (singular word in Hebrew) that is used in Zech4:3 and 4:11 (translated there as "olive trees [H2132 - zayith/zê-ṯîm (one word)]") is also used in the following two passages (at bottom):

(which goes along with my posts re: the study of the "[olive] oil" and "the lamps LIT" and "in the night"/"the night watches" [and Matt24:14/26:13 (IN/DURING the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), Matt25:1-13/Matt22:9-14, and Lk12:35,36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal [G347]; etc...])


Exodus 27:20-21 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Leviticus 24:1–4)

20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.


Leviticus 24:2-3 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Exodus 27:20–21)

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come. 4 He shall tend the lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD continually.

[end quoting brief excerpts from old post]

____________

I realize you do not agree with me that Jesus is NOT coming to "MARRY" those in these texts (and their parallels) which I've pointed out in that post, but instead will be "RETURNING" to the earth as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom ("WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" which pertains to "the MARRIAGE" itself, having ALREADY TAKEN PLACE *in Heaven" at this point in the chronology, which is His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth point in time. He's ALREADY-WED by that point!

I'm NOT saying He's RETURNING to the EARTH "FOR the wedding/the MARRIAGE"... NO. NOT what I said or pointed out, at all). The ppl in these texts (both the "saved" persons and the "unsaved" persons) will be still-located on the earth UPON His "RETURN" there, and the "saved" ones (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will ENTER the *earthly* MK age "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him" [not "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" as we are said to be [and will ALREADY B, by that point in the chronology--i.e. Rev19, His "RETURN" to the earth... as ALREADY-WED, not "TO BE wed" at that point ])

I understand that.
You are placing the supper on earth.

Not true.
Jesus said " i will not drink of the vine again till i drink it anew with you in my fathers kingdom"

Supper is in heaven.

 

[Runningman]

you have been shown the verses.

In fact every rapture verse is in a NON DESTROYED EARTH setting.

And rev 14 has JESUS sitting on a cloud HOLDING A SICKLE.

NEVER TOUCHES EARTH.

Now compare his 2nd coming.
ON HORSES BLACKENING THE SKY AS A WAR ARMY COMMANDER to destroy and kill.....and in fact HAS THE CHURCH WITH HIM.....ORIGINATING FROM HEAVEN.
She becomes the wife in heaven and is on horses IN HEAVEN.

But hey just ignore it.

It'l be ok
You guys will get your great hope of staying.

No problem

Skip the rapture

There is no rapture postrib

You don't get rapture or not depending on what your eschatological views are. That's unBiblical.

 

[Absolutely]

I said "Jesus will return the same way He left."

Are you just looking for hairs to split?

" Like manner"

Solo with no horses or army and as a non warrior TO HIS PEOPLE.

like manner.

A...he turns
B...in like manner.

2 components.
Glossing over it is not exegesis.
It is glossing over a no brainer.
Like manner is the rapture.
Like manner is in no way resembling the 2nd coming.
2 different comings.
Irrefutable.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Lord came, was born, died, resurrected, ascended, then came back down again and taught them for 40 days, then ascended again.

Right! He ascended TWO times, some "40 days" apart.

The SECOND one was indeed "VISIBLE" (and will be how He "so comes in like manner" to the earth, per Acts 1); the FIRST one (ON "Firstfruit" [fulfilling Lev23:10-12]/His Resurrection Day) was SEEN by NO ONE... He only TOLD Mary Magdalene about it, and told HER to "GO... and SAY UNTO" (i.e. verbal testimony re: this)... however, no one SAW it take place (in that instance).

 

[Absolutely]

You don't get rapture or not depending on what your eschatological views are. That's unBiblical.

You don't get rapture or not depending on what your eschatological views are. That's unBiblical.

In other words you are not going there as i pointed out.

You completely glossed over my verses.
In fact completely ignored them

 

[Runningman]

In other words you are not going there as i pointed out.

You completely glossed over my verses.
In fact completely ignored them

I've addressed those verses before.

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture and when you and I have discussed it, it feels more like an argument and not a constructive study.

Every post-trib point I bring up you reject anyway.

You don't want to actually discuss the severe flaws in pre-trib which is why you started nitpicking my posts for anything you could find to charge against me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

That is the rapture

I've made many posts in the past, on this:

ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" speak with regard to His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19] FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age... (NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time)

 

[cv5]

I disagree with 19 - 24.

The partial rapture is depicted in mat 25 as well as mat 24.
Then Jesus said only the worthy ones escape the trib.
Worthy believers.
He told the CHURCH to pray to be found worthy in the 7 letters of rev.
Most of the 7 letters are depicting worthy ( rewards) vs unworthyness.

We will have to disagree on that. 19-24 are airtight pretrib in my opinion.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm sorry, my friend - but, it is you who do not correctly and properly understand the Great Tribulation [period]. You have fallen into the same 'trap' as most folks - having "constructed" your eschatology on things that are not biblical:

~ the 70th week of Daniel is a 'separated' 7-year span of time that is [referring to] the End Times Scenario, an antichrist individual, and a treaty between him and Israel.

(based on the severe misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27)

~ the Olivet Discourse is a chronological illustration of a series of 'events' contained within that 7-year span of time.

~ all Revelation prophecy is also contained within that same 7-year span of time.

I know it "hurts your pride" for someone to tell you that you are severely misinterpreting Daniel 9:24-27. Nonetheless, you are. With all of the Christian love I can muster, I implore you to reconsider your eschatology.

You are in error.

Swallow your pride and "suspend" everything you have been taught - and think you know - about eschatology. Then, prayerfully reconsider it - without allowing that which you have "suspended" (the whole idea) to interfere with your thinking or approach to interpretation of scripture.

You are going to have to "give up" the "great teachers" and their commentaries.

They are in error - and, the reason you are in error.

You must "let go" of all of that.

Just you and the Word and the Holy Spirit.

That's it. That's all. Nothing else.

No the great tribulation seen in Matt 24:21 didnt take place already as (Historicism) falsely teaches, (Preterism)

The Abomination of Daniel seen in Matt 24:15 "Causes" the Great Tribulation in Matt 24:21?

As clearly seen in Matt 24:29-30, Immediately After This Tribulation the second coming

Gary you arent going to perform historicist magic to remove the facts below, the three events are tied together by a time stamp inseparable, that ends for the (Eyewitnesses) in the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ.

(The Inseparable Time Stamp)

1. You therefore shall see the Abomination of desolation

2. For then shall be great tribulation

3. Immediately after the tribulation of those days

(Future Events Unfulfilled)

Matthew 24:15-21 & 29-30KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is not true in the slightest.

The historicist view is the "smoothest most continuous" view there is - with prophecy "spread out" rather evenly across history. The other views have enormous "gaps" while all prophecy is thought to be contained in a very short period of time.

Historicism is a false (Preterist) teaching in error, hiding the future (Man Of Sin/Antichrist) in deception.

Daniel 7:8-11 (Little Horn) Daniel's
2 Thess 2:3 (Man Of Sin) Paul's
Rev 13:1-5 (The Beast) John's

Gods words clearly teach that a "future" human man seen above in Daniel, Paul, John's account, will be revealed proclaiming to be God Messiah, at this time the future 3.5 tribulation starts

This human man will be present on earth, causing desolation unto (The End) in the second coming of Jesus Christ and the (Consummation) of all things.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[presidente]

Historicism is a false (Preterist) teaching in error, hiding the future (Man Of Sin/Antichrist) in deception.

Daniel 7:8-11 (Little Horn) Daniel's
2 Thess 2:3 (Man Of Sin) Paul's
Rev 13:1-5 (The Beast) John's

Gods words clearly teach that a "future" human man seen above in Daniel, Paul, John's account, will be revealed proclaiming to be God Messiah, at this time the future 3.5 tribulation starts

I am familiar with the passage about 'showing himself to be God', but where does the Bible say he will proclaim to be God's Messiah?

 

[cv5]

[plz include reading v.35... as I have done... so you can follow along with what I've put below]



I'm not saying "the wedding" takes place on the earth. I'm saying "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (whose "wedding" ALREADY took place in Heaven), b/c this text (and its parallels) are "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" passages.

And several of those types of contexts speak of the "LAMPS LIT" thing, which in past posts I've explained this speaks to the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period (i.e. the TRIB yrs), aka "the NIGHT WATCHES"... IOW, the "LAMPS LIT" takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period...

And this "LAMPS LIT" issue hails back to references in Scripture such as the following (bearing in mind my posts re: how Matt24:14 / 26:13 speak of that which will be being preached in the future trib years, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [after the Lord removes all of the "LIGHT BULBS," so to speak [i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"], and then the "IN THE NIGHT" [/trib yrs] begins to unfold upon the earth):

[quoting a small portion of those past posts]

[...]
6) Zechariah 4:14 -
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." [SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]


7) Zechariah 6:5 -
"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." [again, SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]

"olive-trees" (one word in Hebrew, in the passages below) -

The same word (singular word in Hebrew) that is used in Zech4:3 and 4:11 (translated there as "olive trees [H2132 - zayith/zê-ṯîm (one word)]") is also used in the following two passages (at bottom):

(which goes along with my posts re: the study of the "[olive] oil" and "the lamps LIT" and "in the night"/"the night watches" [and Matt24:14/26:13 (IN/DURING the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), Matt25:1-13/Matt22:9-14, and Lk12:35,36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal [G347]; etc...])


Exodus 27:20-21 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Leviticus 24:1–4)

20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.


Leviticus 24:2-3 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Exodus 27:20–21)

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come. 4 He shall tend the lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD continually.

[end quoting brief excerpts from old post]

____________

I realize you do not agree with me that Jesus is NOT coming to "MARRY" those in these texts (and their parallels) which I've pointed out in that post, but instead will be "RETURNING" to the earth as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom ("WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" which pertains to "the MARRIAGE" itself, having ALREADY TAKEN PLACE *in Heaven" at this point in the chronology, which is His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth point in time. He's ALREADY-WED by that point!

I'm NOT saying He's RETURNING to the EARTH "FOR the wedding/the MARRIAGE"... NO. NOT what I said or pointed out, at all). The ppl in these texts (both the "saved" persons and the "unsaved" persons) will be still-located on the earth UPON His "RETURN" there, and the "saved" ones (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will ENTER the *earthly* MK age "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him" [not "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" as we are said to be [and will ALREADY B, by that point in the chronology--i.e. Rev19, His "RETURN" to the earth... as ALREADY-WED, not "TO BE wed" at that point ])

I hope the post tribbers will finally recognize those very same keywords (more properly code words) in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. Praying for them......

 

[cv5]

The thing is that we need only one reason to believe. Scripture teaches we shall be taken up and all we need do is trust the promise of God. Those who do not desire to go probably will not go.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I am definitely worried that those who do not desire nor believe in the rapture will not participate in it. That's why I keep posting new threads maybe there's still hope....

 

[Truth7t7]

I am familiar with the passage about 'showing himself to be God', but where does the Bible say he will proclaim to be God's Messiah?

The future (man of sin/antichrist) will be revealed in Jerusalem, he will proclaim to be God, as Judaism is currently waiting upon the return of their Messiah God, as they rejected Jesus Christ, it's that simple.

 

[Runningman]

We will have to disagree on that. 19-24 are airtight pretrib in my opinion.

Point 22 & 23 in the link you posted are incorrect. The anti-Christ will make war with the saints, and everyone else for that matter, during the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:7-8
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[cv5]

Point 22 & 23 in the link you posted are incorrect. The anti-Christ will make war with the saints, and everyone else for that matter, during the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:7-8
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I think the nuances and finer points are escaping you my friend. I pray that you will take heed to TheDivineWatermark. I hate to put it this way but he's got you beat by a longshot. It's not even close....

 

[Truth7t7]

I am definitely worried that those who do not desire nor believe in the rapture will not participate in it. That's why I keep posting new threads maybe there's still hope....

I believe in the future (Catching Up) as seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17, however this takes place at the second coming, last day resurrection as clearly seen below.

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

(Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Runningman]

I think the nuances and finer points are escaping you my friend. I pray that you will take heed to TheDivineWatermark. I hate to put it this way but he's got you beat by a longshot. It's not even close....

The finer point here is that the saints can't be present in the great tribulation if they are raptured out as you claim they will be.

The only possible solution is the Bible is right and pre-trib theology is misunderstanding it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Point 22 & 23 in the link you posted are incorrect. The anti-Christ will make war with the saints, and everyone else for that matter, during the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:7-8
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The saints seen are the (Two Witnesses) not the entire church as many teach, that will be killed, just days before the second coming.

(Same Event Below)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

[cv5]

The finer point here is that the saints can't be present in the great tribulation if they are raptured out as you claim they will be.

The only possible solution is the Bible is right and pre-trib theology is misunderstanding it.

Maybe you would care to do a word study on Saints as it relates to the Old Testament.