50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Ok i read the 0p.
I noticed he has " tribulation saints"
They are the left behinds of. Mat 25 &24.
He apparently has another source.
Saved during the gt??
I can see that as well.
However i see no jewish gathering and nothing at all about the bride.
Just a comment. Not shooting the message down.
I do agree with some of it.
One thing is overly apparent.
The non bride views and comments are vastly different than the bride/ groom/ 10 virgin centered views.
Here is the very core of the matter.
Jesus has a bride. He will return for her. The rapture is the gathering and separation of that bride.
The gentile church ends.
The time of Jacobs(Israels) trouble begins..
In the 3 hebrew children story the 3 HEBREWS are israel.
The furnace is the trib.
The 3 hebrews were unhurt. Protected supernaturally in the tribulation. Taken out by Jesus.
In rev the saints are killed by the ac. All refusing the mark are killed. That is what it says.
In rev the Jews are ushered to safety ( as were in the furnace).
In fact the 144 k are sealed against the flying scorpions.
Born again and following Jesus....but needed sealing.
Special sealing . extra protection beyond salvation ( sealed at conversion but needing the second seal).
So a lot of things need to be reconciled.
A lot of things
I noticed he has " tribulation saints"
They are the left behinds of. Mat 25 &24.
He apparently has another source.
Saved during the gt??
I can see that as well.
However i see no jewish gathering and nothing at all about the bride.
Just a comment. Not shooting the message down.
I do agree with some of it.
One thing is overly apparent.
The non bride views and comments are vastly different than the bride/ groom/ 10 virgin centered views.
Here is the very core of the matter.
Jesus has a bride. He will return for her. The rapture is the gathering and separation of that bride.
The gentile church ends.
The time of Jacobs(Israels) trouble begins..
In the 3 hebrew children story the 3 HEBREWS are israel.
The furnace is the trib.
The 3 hebrews were unhurt. Protected supernaturally in the tribulation. Taken out by Jesus.
In rev the saints are killed by the ac. All refusing the mark are killed. That is what it says.
In rev the Jews are ushered to safety ( as were in the furnace).
In fact the 144 k are sealed against the flying scorpions.
Born again and following Jesus....but needed sealing.
Special sealing . extra protection beyond salvation ( sealed at conversion but needing the second seal).
So a lot of things need to be reconciled.
A lot of things
No rapture verse has a postrib setting
Neither noah or lot or the baby Jesus were delivered/ taken away post judgement
Way too much to gloss over.
Mat 25 is undeniable rapture depiction with half the church left behind....no postrib setting at all.
Mat 24 'one taken'..is definately not a postrib setting.
Acts 1....no postrib setting
Baby Jesus taken away is in a peacetime setting
Noah...the same
Lot...the same
The case for postrib rapture is impossible to honestly have any traction.
Way too much to gloss over.
Neither noah or lot or the baby Jesus were delivered/ taken away post judgement
Way too much to gloss over.
Mat 25 is undeniable rapture depiction with half the church left behind....no postrib setting at all.
Mat 24 'one taken'..is definately not a postrib setting.
Acts 1....no postrib setting
Baby Jesus taken away is in a peacetime setting
Noah...the same
Lot...the same
The case for postrib rapture is impossible to honestly have any traction.
Way too much to gloss over.
Would you please do everyone a favor?
(I am being very serious.)
1) Start a new thread.
2) Title it 'ALL of the Pre-Trib Rapture Verses'
3) In the OP --- place an exhaustive "cover-to-cover" (Gen. - Rev.) any-and-all every-last-one no-verse-missing listing of ALL of "The Pre-Trib Rapture Verses" --- so that we may all reference it when discussing Pre-Trib Rapture.
Please place in the OP nothing-but that list.
Thank you.
(I am being very serious.)
1) Start a new thread.
2) Title it 'ALL of the Pre-Trib Rapture Verses'
3) In the OP --- place an exhaustive "cover-to-cover" (Gen. - Rev.) any-and-all every-last-one no-verse-missing listing of ALL of "The Pre-Trib Rapture Verses" --- so that we may all reference it when discussing Pre-Trib Rapture.
Please place in the OP nothing-but that list.
Thank you.
Not the rapture.
The 144k are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
That dynamic ESTABLISHES main harvest of Jews. Messianic Jews.
The tribulation is Jacobs/israels trouble.
The entire point of the gt is the harvest of the covenant jews.
As romans declares.
In no way is rev14 anything to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4. That is the church..
Besides that 1 thes has the dead rising first and meeting those alive in the air..
Now you have the dead rising AFTER FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
Sloppy exegesis.
The 144k are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
That dynamic ESTABLISHES main harvest of Jews. Messianic Jews.
The tribulation is Jacobs/israels trouble.
The entire point of the gt is the harvest of the covenant jews.
As romans declares.
In no way is rev14 anything to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4. That is the church..
Besides that 1 thes has the dead rising first and meeting those alive in the air..
Now you have the dead rising AFTER FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
Sloppy exegesis.
Rev 19
Rev 14
Two COMPLETELY different appearances by Jesus.
In no way is it the same.
So you can not overcome that.
Give me a link where any postrib tries to combine the 2 to be the exact same thing.
I can save you some time...there is none.
They and you skip it.
They and you skip the word " before" in mat 24
They and you skip acts 1 " in like manner"
They and you skip " all take the mark"
And on and on....way too much to reconcile...so it is ignored.
You guys without a doubt have the living raptured in rev 14 AHEAD OF the dead in christ by declaring the rapture is Rev 19.
You guys are sooooo busted!!!
Rev 14
Two COMPLETELY different appearances by Jesus.
In no way is it the same.
So you can not overcome that.
Give me a link where any postrib tries to combine the 2 to be the exact same thing.
I can save you some time...there is none.
They and you skip it.
They and you skip the word " before" in mat 24
They and you skip acts 1 " in like manner"
They and you skip " all take the mark"
And on and on....way too much to reconcile...so it is ignored.
You guys without a doubt have the living raptured in rev 14 AHEAD OF the dead in christ by declaring the rapture is Rev 19.
You guys are sooooo busted!!!
I think you're just grasping wildly for anything that you feel will confirm your pre-trib bias.
For example, you just demonstrated you're willing to project into the scripture that Jesus comes back more than once.
Where in Revelation 14 and 19 does it says Jesus returned then left? What makes you think He left after returning. There isn't a verse for that.
There is only scriptural support for a singular return of Christ.
For example, you just demonstrated you're willing to project into the scripture that Jesus comes back more than once.
Where in Revelation 14 and 19 does it says Jesus returned then left? What makes you think He left after returning. There isn't a verse for that.
There is only scriptural support for a singular return of Christ.
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It's heresy to say what you just said and here you are judging people to eternal damnation because they don't agree with your false doctrine.
May you repent of your error and may God gave mercy on you.
James 2:13
13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
May you repent of your error and may God gave mercy on you.
James 2:13
13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
According to context he addresses the doctrine as false and damnable. Not the messanger
False doctrine is what Jesus attacked.
You can not claim high ground by omitting verses.
Amil and histotoricist views are undebateable really.
Way too far apart.
Hermit started a thread on historicist views.
I challenged his take on the mark.
Guess what.
The mark is spiritual and abstract.
The debate is over at that point.
Waste of time.
Obvious blatant heresy.
False doctrine is what Jesus attacked.
You can not claim high ground by omitting verses.
Amil and histotoricist views are undebateable really.
Way too far apart.
Hermit started a thread on historicist views.
I challenged his take on the mark.
Guess what.
The mark is spiritual and abstract.
The debate is over at that point.
Waste of time.
Obvious blatant heresy.
Heresy is anything unbiblical such as saying Jesus comes back twice or that that rapture occurs pre-tribulation. If you aren't sure, it's much better to say "I don't know." Nothing wrong with not knowing.
What's a problem is going year after year on this message board, remaining unteachable, and rejecting all scripture that doesn't conform to pre-trib. It's sad and it grieves the Holy Spirit I believe.
What's a problem is going year after year on this message board, remaining unteachable, and rejecting all scripture that doesn't conform to pre-trib. It's sad and it grieves the Holy Spirit I believe.
So you are saying rev 14 and the coming on millions of white horses are EXACTLY THE SAME THING????
Jesus rides a horse with a sickle.?
Is the saddle a cloud?
Please help me to combine the two into one.
I will wait.
Show me the proper reconciling of the 2
Remember jesus is alone on a cloud....sitting on it....with no other intention but to harvest main harvest of Jews. Waiting for an angel to command him to begin harvesting.
....and remember...the firstfruit jews are already in heaven.
So if rev 14 harvest with sickle is the rapture
..you just placed the dead in christ resurrected AFTER the living.( the 144k)...no matter what the 144k are first { as In BEFORE the ones gathered by Jesus on a cloud}
On 3 or 4 dimensions your ENTIRE theory is just been debunked.
Jesus rides a horse with a sickle.?
Is the saddle a cloud?
Please help me to combine the two into one.
I will wait.
Show me the proper reconciling of the 2
Remember jesus is alone on a cloud....sitting on it....with no other intention but to harvest main harvest of Jews. Waiting for an angel to command him to begin harvesting.
....and remember...the firstfruit jews are already in heaven.
So if rev 14 harvest with sickle is the rapture
..you just placed the dead in christ resurrected AFTER the living.( the 144k)...no matter what the 144k are first { as In BEFORE the ones gathered by Jesus on a cloud}
On 3 or 4 dimensions your ENTIRE theory is just been debunked.
Jesus said His coming will be like the flood in the days of Noah in Matthew 24. The Rider on the White Horse is a description of Jesus coming on the clouds with His angels. He'll gather His elect and kill the wicked.
You should also try to suspend the assumption that Revelation is entirely sequential. It teaches the same concept using different terminology sometimes. This is partly why Revelation is a difficult book to understand. Just when you think you got it there's a plot twist.
Numerous things happen simultaneously at the return of Christ after the Great tribulation: the rapture, the resurrection of the dead, the harvest of the earth, defeat of the anti-Christ and false prophet, binding of Satan, the Earth destroyed, New Heavens and Earth.
Suspend the assumption that Jesus keeps leaving and coming back. If the Bible says just returns after the Tribulation then you need to recognize that that is when the rapture happens.
You should also try to suspend the assumption that Revelation is entirely sequential. It teaches the same concept using different terminology sometimes. This is partly why Revelation is a difficult book to understand. Just when you think you got it there's a plot twist.
Numerous things happen simultaneously at the return of Christ after the Great tribulation: the rapture, the resurrection of the dead, the harvest of the earth, defeat of the anti-Christ and false prophet, binding of Satan, the Earth destroyed, New Heavens and Earth.
Suspend the assumption that Jesus keeps leaving and coming back. If the Bible says just returns after the Tribulation then you need to recognize that that is when the rapture happens.
Good point.
it’s not simply a disagreement over timing, but the introduction of a falsehood about a second prior event.
Instead of encouraging the body to look forward, focussed on the visible return of our King in vindication & glory, pretrib is a
self-centred doctrine seeking escape & distracting the church from it's function during the tribulation period.
it’s not simply a disagreement over timing, but the introduction of a falsehood about a second prior event.
Instead of encouraging the body to look forward, focussed on the visible return of our King in vindication & glory, pretrib is a
self-centred doctrine seeking escape & distracting the church from it's function during the tribulation period.
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the mark is literal.
That is solid and obvious.
Saying it is abstract symbolic is clear error.
Or that nero had any such component to his rule is rediculous.
Here is the deal. We can all be decieved. The bible can assist is in our deception.
Jesus can not be decieved and so we need assistance. He left us the Holy Spirit to guide is IN THE WORD.
The lord showed me that ALL FALSE DOCTRINE carries along side of it as a companion " an impossibility"
When we see that dynamic ( the impossibility) we have to stop and go back.
IOW , Once that impossibility is exposed, i must, at that point jettison something.
It does not feel good.
I have jettisoned many things.
Part of shooting right down the middle is living in the bible because the bible itself AUTHENTICATES itself.
I have the bible on dvd playing nonstop 24..7. I never turn it off.
The page being read is on the screen. So i am reading and listening at the same time. My goal is to be FULL of his word.
Repitition does just that. Sometimes i sleep with it on.
It takes 3 days to go through the bible. Playing day and night.
Not that i am anything or have any knowledge but that word of God is a fragrance. And i fill my home with it. ...and myself.
So when something is off...there is a foul smell to it.
We are all looking through a smokey lense as paul said. But we can still discern with supernatural discernment.
I do not say ANYTHING about what the Holy Spirit shows me.
This forum is not the place. I have seen visions of heaven and the rapture.
I strictly stick to the bible and use only the bible in ANY discussion
Maybe one day i will share what Took place over many years of visions from heaven.
This aint the venue.
That is solid and obvious.
Saying it is abstract symbolic is clear error.
Or that nero had any such component to his rule is rediculous.
Here is the deal. We can all be decieved. The bible can assist is in our deception.
Jesus can not be decieved and so we need assistance. He left us the Holy Spirit to guide is IN THE WORD.
The lord showed me that ALL FALSE DOCTRINE carries along side of it as a companion " an impossibility"
When we see that dynamic ( the impossibility) we have to stop and go back.
IOW , Once that impossibility is exposed, i must, at that point jettison something.
It does not feel good.
I have jettisoned many things.
Part of shooting right down the middle is living in the bible because the bible itself AUTHENTICATES itself.
I have the bible on dvd playing nonstop 24..7. I never turn it off.
The page being read is on the screen. So i am reading and listening at the same time. My goal is to be FULL of his word.
Repitition does just that. Sometimes i sleep with it on.
It takes 3 days to go through the bible. Playing day and night.
Not that i am anything or have any knowledge but that word of God is a fragrance. And i fill my home with it. ...and myself.
So when something is off...there is a foul smell to it.
We are all looking through a smokey lense as paul said. But we can still discern with supernatural discernment.
I do not say ANYTHING about what the Holy Spirit shows me.
This forum is not the place. I have seen visions of heaven and the rapture.
I strictly stick to the bible and use only the bible in ANY discussion
Maybe one day i will share what Took place over many years of visions from heaven.
This aint the venue.