50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Runningman]

Let me ask you this:

Are you saying ^ (in that quote) ^ that there are TWO ITEMS (or, points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?

Or are you saying that there are THREE ITEMS (points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?


IOW, which of the following is it that you are saying:

[the sequence]

1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")

2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed, and with it [/AT WHICH TIME], the day of Christ will [thus] "be present" (or JUST "AT HAND" still?<--even though the Grk wording does NOT support such), at that same time


OR


1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")

2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed (at what you believe is) the 2:4 "OPPOSETH... EXALTETH... SITTETH in the temple of God" (when there is still approx "42 mos" remaining till the end of trib)

3) [THEN] AFTER ALL of the "42 mos" are completely spent, THEN "the day of Christ" will "BE PRESENT" (or still "AT HAND," according to you) which is the thing (according to your view) the "false conveyors" had been SAYING "IS ALREADY HERE" in the Thessalonians' day (which will include, according to you, the 'caught-up / 'caught-away' / 'SNATCH' / harpazo / 'rapture' / 'our gathering-together [noun-event] UNTO HIM' / 'delivering us OUT-FROM the wrath COMING' / etc...)



So, why do you believe the false conveyors would be SAYING such a thing TO the Thessalonians?

And why do you believe Paul found it necessary to WRITE a corrective and cautionary LETTER to them, which TOOK SUBSTANTIAL "TIME" (so that they don't let such an untruth "deceive" them or to "trouble" their minds, even though NOTHING in their present-day experiences gave them any reason to BELIEVE such a falsehood that Jesus Himself "IS ALREADY HERE" could even be remotely true, as though this is what v.2 is SAYING [it's NOT]).


Help me out, here, because I'm just not seeing THAT being THE POINT of vv.2-3, at all.

You seem like you're pretty close to getting what was happening. Paul addressed this issue because they were troubled about what the deceivers had said. Just going out of his way to set the record straight because the truth matters.

Like at the time of Paul, even now, there were deceivers going around spreading destructive heresies. They were trying to say that the day of Christ had come which would mean if they were still present then they missed the gathering.

Stick with what the texts in 2 Thess. 2 say and you'll eventually get it completely. Being especially mindful to not neglect that the apostasy must come first and the man of sin (in the great tribulation) then Jesus comes and gathers them (the church).

Paul was clearly teaching from what Jesus had said in the olivet discourse which states Jesus returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

This should be revealing who the elect are, when the are gathered, when the rapture is.

 

[Runningman]

When you respond to this question (noted in the link below) with an honest answer.......then and only then will we pick up this conversation and move forward. No more games no more stunts no more backpedaling........just answer the question.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...r-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-34#post-4535297

I asked a question and he deflected it by giving me an incorrect break down of the english language used in the verses we're discussing. It wasn't useful nor was there a reason to attempt to correct it.

I recommend you prayerfully and carefully read GaryA's post here:

https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534939

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You seem like you're pretty close to getting what was happening. Paul addressed this issue because they were troubled about what the deceivers had said.

So you're saying that Paul somehow heard that the Thessalonians were being told by someone (deceivers) that Jesus had already come (and thus "the Rapture" had already occurred), and that this thought GREATLY DISTURBED / SEVERELY TROUBLED their minds (even though ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in their sphere, city, or assembly had VANISHED, thus NO EVIDENCE of this "claim" was ANYWHERE "in view"--but it's supposed to TROUBLE THEM GREATLY), so that Paul took the time to compose a letter and then deliver it...

...(because, you know, they'd still be greatly disturbed thinking that Jesus had ALREADY COME by the time they'd be receiving Paul's letter, much later from the point in time of when Paul first learned of their dilemma/risk-of-being-deceived by this false idea...),
all so Paul can tell them, "don't be deceived by them, and don't let it trouble your mind, coz the SEQUENCE *IS* (contrary to what the false conveyors said):

1) FIRST, you'll [in MASS NUMBERS] BE DECEIVED[!]/"FALL AWAY"/"FALL INTO APOSTASY/UNBELIEF" (nothing TRIGGERING it)--oh, wait!! YOU *WERE* just deceived, coz you BELIEVED the false conveyors SAYING "Jesus is ALREADY HERE!"... let's see, ummm no, that doesn't count... you'll have to be REALLY "deceived" by some other UNKNOWN and UNKNOWABLE *thing*...

2) AFTER "the apostasy," THEN the man of sin BE REVEALED... but it'll be too late for y'all to even care by then, coz you'll already be goners, as far as TRUTH goes... since the false conveyors had such EASY TARGETS, in you, convincing you of the STUPID *idea* that "JESUS IS HERE ALREADY / RAPTURE ALREADY OCCURRED" with zero evidence whatsoever...

3) "42 months" AFTER that, uhhh... what else matters, at that point (well, except for all of the ones of y'alls who will suddenly turn into SUPERMEN!), coz all "believers" suddenly (at ONE unknowable point in time / NO "trigger" point) became "unbelievers" PRIOR TO #2, above, at Point #1 when there was NOTHING we can point to that will have triggered their "apostasy" (the man of sin NOT YET having been REVEALED, at that point)... [and Paul continues-->] "and, by the way, let this thought COMFORT YOU ALL!! (SO MUCH BETTER-SOUNDING from what the false conveyors were telling you, RIGHT?!) <3 ... 'TRUE DAT!' (it matters!) REJOICE!!"




Makes no sense to me, and does not "fit" what the TEXT ITSELF is TELLING US.

Paul addressed this issue because they were troubled about what the deceivers had said.

I don't disagree!

I DO disagree with what the CONTENT / SUBJECT WAS that the false conveyors were SAYING

(according to v.2 - "[purporting / alleging] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE*"... Then v.3a THAT DAY ^ will NOT be present if not shall have come...")

 

[Runningman]

So you're saying that Paul somehow heard that the Thessalonians were being told by someone (deceivers) that Jesus had already come (and thus "the Rapture" had already occurred), and that this thought GREATLY DISTURBED / SEVERELY TROUBLED their minds (even though ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in their sphere, city, or assembly had VANISHED, thus NO EVIDENCE of this "claim" was ANYWHERE "in view"--but it's supposed to TROUBLE THEM GREATLY), so that Paul took the time to compose a letter and then deliver it...

...(because, you know, they'd still be greatly disturbed thinking that Jesus had ALREADY COME by the time they'd be receiving Paul's letter, much later from the point in time of when Paul first learned of their dilemma/risk-of-being-deceived by this false idea...),
all so Paul can tell them, "don't be deceived by them, and don't let it trouble your mind, coz the SEQUENCE *IS* (contrary to what the false conveyors said):

1) FIRST, you'll [in MASS NUMBERS] BE DECEIVED[!]/"FALL AWAY"/"FALL INTO APOSTASY/UNBELIEF" (nothing TRIGGERING it)--oh, wait!! YOU *WERE* just deceived, coz you BELIEVED the false conveyors SAYING "Jesus is ALREADY HERE!"... let's see, ummm no, that doesn't count... you'll have to be REALLY "deceived" by some other UNKNOWN and UNKNOWABLE *thing*...

2) AFTER "the apostasy," THEN the man of sin BE REVEALED... but it'll be too late for y'all to even care by then, coz you'll already be goners, as far as TRUTH goes... since the false conveyors had such EASY TARGETS, in you, convincing you of the STUPID *idea* that "JESUS IS HERE ALREADY / RAPTURE ALREADY OCCURRED" with zero evidence whatsoever...

3) "42 months" AFTER that, uhhh... what else matters, at that point (well, except for all of the ones of y'alls who will suddenly turn into SUPERMEN!), coz all "believers" suddenly (at ONE unknowable point in time / NO "trigger" point) became "unbelievers" PRIOR TO #2, above, at Point #1 when there was NOTHING we can point to that will have triggered their "apostasy" (the man of sin NOT YET having been REVEALED, at that point)... [and Paul continues-->] "and, by the way, let this thought COMFORT YOU ALL!! (SO MUCH BETTER-SOUNDING from what the false conveyors were telling you, RIGHT?!) <3 ... 'TRUE DAT!' (it matters!) REJOICE!!"




Makes no sense to me, and does not "fit" what the TEXT ITSELF is TELLING US.




I don't disagree!

I DO disagree with what the CONTENT / SUBJECT WAS that the false conveyors were SAYING

(according to v.2 - "[purporting / alleging] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE*"... Then v.3a THAT DAY ^ will NOT be present if not shall have come...")

It sounds like you're skeptical of the Biblical narrative now. It says there were deceivers alleging the day of Christ is at hand. Some of them were troubled by it.

Destructive heresies like saying "the day of Christ is at hand" can and does trouble people because it can make them question their salvation if it went unchecked and unchallenged.

How many people have preached Jesus is returning on a precise date and they were wrong? How much damage did it to the faith of those who believed them?

Should Paul have left them to their own imaginations allowing them to be led astray, question their salvation, and the return of Christ? Absolutely not.

I think you're also misconstruing being deceived with apostasy. It isn't the same thing. Christians can be deceived about a lot of things and not abandon their saving faith in Christ.

I know Paul did the right thing by dispelling any deceptions that had taken place. When deceivers spread falsehoods, whether knowingly or unknowingly, it must be corrected.

He concludes by pointing out that the day of Christ and the gathering of the church will occur after the falling away and man of sin revealed.

Paul supported post-tribulatiion rapture in no uncertain terms.

 

[Runningman]

It sounds like you're skeptical of the Biblical narrative now. It says there were deceivers alleging the day of Christ is at hand. Some of them were troubled by it.

Destructive heresies like saying "the day of Christ is at hand" can and does trouble people because it can make them question their salvation if it went unchecked and unchallenged.

How many people have preached Jesus is returning on a precise date and they were wrong? How much damage did it to the faith of those who believed them?

Should Paul have left them to their own imaginations allowing them to be led astray, question their salvation, and the return of Christ? Absolutely not.

I think you're also misconstruing being deceived with apostasy. It isn't the same thing. Christians can be deceived about a lot of things and not abandon their saving faith in Christ.

I know Paul did the right thing by dispelling any deceptions that had taken place. When deceivers spread falsehoods, whether knowingly or unknowingly, it must be corrected.

He concludes by pointing out that the day of Christ and the gathering of the church will occur after the falling away and man of sin revealed.

Paul supported post-tribulatiion rapture in no uncertain terms.

Also, I might add, under the pre-tribulation belief, the church is raptured out before the great tribulation and anti-Christ. Yet a lot of people still believe in it.

When the great tribulation comes, and the anti-Christ come, the rapture will not have happened. I stand confident because I believe the scriptures.

People will be looking for the day of Christ. What will they say or do when the great tribulation starts? They'll probably be troubled in mind and spirit.

Many people will likely commit apostasy thinking the Bible was wrong, but the Bible isn't wrong. It's just very much misunderstood by the pre-tribulation theology.

I would also like to add that pre-tribulation is decidedly an "itching ears" doctrine. People love the idea of not having to be present for the great tribulation. I get that! But that just isn't what the Bible says about when the rapture happens.

Conversely, post-tribulation rapture is not for itching ears. It's for people who accept whatever the Bible says because the truth matters more than our preferences. Just something to consider.

 

[cv5]

I asked a question and he deflected it by giving me an incorrect break down of the english language used in the verses we're discussing. It wasn't useful nor was there a reason to attempt to correct it.

I recommend you prayerfully and carefully read GaryA's post here:

https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534939

GaryA is a preterist. Why in the world would I consult with somebody who has utterly failed to comprehend the clear meaning of Scripture? He is dead wrong as regards practically every other primary Biblical docrine pertaining to eschatology too.

 

[cv5]

It sounds like you're skeptical of the Biblical narrative now. It says there were deceivers alleging the day of Christ is at hand. Some of them were troubled by it.

Destructive heresies like saying "the day of Christ is at hand" can and does trouble people because it can make them question their salvation if it went unchecked and unchallenged.

How many people have preached Jesus is returning on a precise date and they were wrong? How much damage did it to the faith of those who believed them?

Should Paul have left them to their own imaginations allowing them to be led astray, question their salvation, and the return of Christ? Absolutely not.

I think you're also misconstruing being deceived with apostasy. It isn't the same thing. Christians can be deceived about a lot of things and not abandon their saving faith in Christ.

I know Paul did the right thing by dispelling any deceptions that had taken place. When deceivers spread falsehoods, whether knowingly or unknowingly, it must be corrected.

He concludes by pointing out that the day of Christ and the gathering of the church will occur after the falling away and man of sin revealed.

Paul supported post-tribulatiion rapture in no uncertain terms.

Did you say that you were an amillenialist? What denomination are you attending?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It sounds like you're skeptical of the Biblical narrative now. It says there were deceivers alleging the day of Christ is at hand. Some of them were troubled by it.

I'm not skeptical of the Biblical text / narrative... I'm skeptical of what YOU are suggesting the TEXT SAYS (i.e. '[those alleging] that THE DAY OF CHRIST *IS AT HAND*" rather than what the text ACTUALLY states INSTEAD).

I'm pointing out WHAT the text DOES SAY, in v.2, instead of what *you* want it to say.

I listed about 24 versions in a previous post.

I pointed out the grammar thing, which you continue to disregard as though I "made it up" off of the top of my head, or something.

I pointed out that v.1's Subject (the one PAUL is BRINGING TO their minds) is NOT the SAME SUBJECT in v.2 that the false conveyors were bringing to their minds (causing them a "SHAKEN IN MIND" kind of reaction).

I pointed out their "real-world" SETTING they were living (1:4), so as to "understand" the REASONING behind Paul finding it necessary to write them such a letter (b/c what the false conveyors were SAYING seemed PERFECTLY REASONABLE [EXACTLY "MATCHING" the CLAIM], not something TOTALLY IRRATIONAL and having NO EVIDENCE of such a [supposed (as suggested by post-tribbers, saying was the)] claim, anywhere in sight!!)...



The next thing I *was* going to do is look at the BIBLICAL definition of the "phrase" in v.2 (the thing that the false conveyors were saying is already here, playing out upon the earth in their present-day existence at that time, and which CORRESPONDED with their "real-life" circumstances, thus making that "false claim" others were "purporting," to be at least REASONABLE and PERFECTLY BELIEVABLE, instead of our making the Thessalonians out to be easily-duped IDIOTS with NO ability to "examine the evidence [that would be non-existent, in such a scenario]," if that were the case that v.2 were ACTUALLY SAYING such a thing, but it is NOT.)

 

[Runningman]

Did you say that you were an amillenialist? What denomination are you attending?

Though I don't fit neatly into a box, I most closely identify as a historical premillennialist, not to be confused with dispensational premillennialists.

I find that I can't agree with everything the various millennial doctrines state. I'm sure that none of them (premillennial, amillennial, postmillennial) have it completely right. Sometime I just say I don't know!

I'm non-denominational.

 

[cv5]

Though I don't fit neatly into a box, I most closely identify as a historical premillennialist, not to be confused with dispensational premillennialists.

I find that I can't agree with everything the various millennial doctrines state. I'm sure that none of them (premillennial, amillennial, postmillennial) have it completely right. Sometime I just say I don't know!

I'm non-denominational.

Historical premillenialism demands replacement theology. A heresy of the first order.

 

[Runningman]

Historical premillenialism demands replacement theology. A heresy of the first order.

Now I know you're just looking for reasons to slander me. No good faith discussion to be had with you.

But just to be clear you are wrong again.

Historical premillennialism states there there is only a unified body of Christ. No longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. Christ's plan of salvation is for all. 100% Biblical.

 

[Runningman]

Can't prove pre-tribulation rapture using the Bible: go for ad hominems, insults thinly veiled behind Bible verses and good Christian behavior, and character assassination. Very sad.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Try and find "the day of Christ" in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians.

Correct, Precious friend! In:

1 Thessalonians 5 : 2 = Day Of The LORD {gr: Kurios}!
but:
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither
by spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day
Of CHRIST {gr: Christos} is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2 : 2 KJB!)

By the way, good job looking up all those scriptures.

Thanks So Much for your kind words. It is a pleasure to have a
Great discussion with you. I know I still have a lot to learn, and
these kinds of pleasant postings are Very Encouraging!

Can you fit the Day of Christ into a scenario where you can explain why they were troubled?

How would you define the "Day of Christ?" Would that be the day He returns to Armageddon?

I will await your answer.

I will try to do my best with what I know:

Heavenly Aspect:
I previously had it defined as The "Day of Light" Where
The Body Of CHRIST Arrived In Heaven, for The Judgment
{Day?}/Seat Of CHRIST, some "members" being ashamed
{darkness?} losing rewards, but others receiving rewards,
rejoicing, and given Heavenly positions of ruling and reigning
With CHRIST!

Earthly Aspect:
Previously I considered The Day Of CHRIST, In Heaven, to be
Concurrent with The Day Of The LORD, on earth.

However, now that I am prayerfully/Carefully studying {or RE-studying}
God's Context, here in 2 Thessalonians, I will have to admit I am now
seeing an earthly aspect, to "fit in" with why they were troubled. i.e.:

Before Armageddon:
Could The Day Of CHRIST {Light In Heaven}, also be synonymous
With The Day Of The LORD {Great Tribulation, Darkness, on the
earth}? *

And, then further, after Armageddon, Also with JESUS CHRIST,
The "Light of the world," setting up HIS Kingdom, and Reigning
on the earth for 1000 years of Peace And Prosperity for ISRAEL,
to be a blessing to the world? *
------------------------------------------------
* In which case defining it this way would be similar to
defining God's Eternal Salvation, with HIS The Three Aspects of:
Justification, Sanctification, And Also Glorification, would it not,
lamad, my Precious friend?

 

[Truth7t7]

Historical premillenialism demands replacement theology. A heresy of the first order.

There is no such thing as (Replacement Theology)

There is Zionism that John N Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield Taught In Dispensationalism, That Falsely Teaches God Has A Existing Covenant With National Israel (A Lie)

The Church Is God's Israel,Children Of The Promised Seed.

They Which Are Children Of The Flesh (Jews) These Are Not The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[cv5]

Now I know you're just looking for reasons to slander me. No good faith discussion to be had with you.

But just to be clear you are wrong again.

Historical premillennialism states there there is only a unified body of Christ. No longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. Christ's plan of salvation is for all. 100% Biblical.

Blurring the distinction between the Church and Israel is a slippery slope to replacement theology. It's an inference that cannot be escaped.

What does historical premillennialism say about God's covenant with Abraham and David?
What does it say about ethnic Israelites in the time of the millennium?
What does it say about the The Church the Bride of Christ?
Where is the Church at the time of the millennium?

Answer these questions correctly and you will necessarily deny historical premillennialism.

 

[Truth7t7]

JESUS CHRIST,
The "Light of the world," setting up HIS Kingdom, and Reigning
on the earth for 1000 years of Peace And Prosperity for ISRAEL,
to be a blessing to the world? *
------------------------------------------------

Jesus Is Gonna Redeem The Earth, By (Fire)!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Runningman]

Blurring the distinction between the Church and Israel is a slippery slope to replacement theology. It's an inference that cannot be escaped.

What does historical premillennialism say about God's covenant with Abraham and David?
What does it say about ethnic Israelites in the time of the millennium?
What does it say about the The Church the Bride of Christ?
Where is the Church at the time of the millennium?

Answer these questions correctly and you will necessarily deny historical premillennialism.

Your premise is entirely wrong. The discussion you're wishing to have only demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the scriptures on both eschatology and the new covenant:

Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[cv5]

Can't prove pre-tribulation rapture using the Bible: go for ad hominems, insults thinly veiled behind Bible verses and good Christian behavior, and character assassination. Very sad.

Retreating into the fallback position of passive aggressive insults, then burrowing into the bunker of despair and whining is typical of those pushing false doctrine. Seen it a thousand times.

The root cause is cognitive dissonance. Let's pray you come out the other end with a biblical view that is accurate.

 

[cv5]

Your premise is entirely wrong. The discussion you're wishing to have only demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the scriptures on both eschatology and the new covenant:

Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One Scripture wonders are par for the course as far as false prophets are concerned. And no I'm not talking about somebody else.

 

[Runningman]

One Scripture wonders are par for the course as far as false prophets are concerned. And no I'm not talking about somebody else.

Now you're criticizing the usage of scripture. What does that say about you?