Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[presidente]

The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes

That contradicts your previous post.

I do no know old French but I suspect the lexicographer was reinterpreting tge definition through his religious bias. Maybe he was Reformed and got that definition from Calvin or was influenced by the Reformed movement.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus did want He saw the Father doing. God is a compassionate God.

We know from the Bible that Jesus had compassion before feeding the 5000.

Are you aware that Israel was told in the OT that they would recognize the Messiah by the many healings he would be doing among them, as Luke 7:18-22 had Jesus reminding the disciples of John the Baptist?

 

[presidente]

They performed as one’s intended to do so and the time for such things but your and your’s now? Not the same, just short lived emotional trip’n with no lasting value.

What are you talking about by "your's now". Did I say I do miracles. Some people I have laid hands on said they were healed, got better, etc. That is all I have mentioned.

As for the idea that miracles do not still perform their Biblical role today, you do not have a Biblical role today. Show me one scripture that backs up that idea. You wasn't people to believe some parts of the Bible are not true for us today.

 

[presidente]

Are you aware that Israel was told in the OT that they would recognize the Messiah by the many healings he would be doing among them, as Luke 7:18-22 had Jesus reminding the disciples of John the Baptist?

The idea that there was just one purpose for miracles etc. does not line up with scripture.

The OT also predicts that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh...prophesying, etc. Jesus said that He that believes in Him, "the works that I do shall He do also..." The Bible teaches there are gifts of the Spirit given to the body of Christ "as He wills.

 

[Evmur]

You see you are ignorant in the meaning and use of the words you use.....the word prophesy was used in the act of teaching the word, expounding on it in the bible’s original intent. It was not till later did the word take on the meaning if foretelling the future, but would you actually look up the meaning and history of the words you use? Or just blindly chase after your emotional trip’n?
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes (see prophet

Prophets came down to Antioch and took Paul's belt and bound themselves with and prophesied "so will the owner of this belt be bound"

 

[Guojing]

The idea that there was just one purpose for miracles etc. does not line up with scripture.

The OT also predicts that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh...prophesying, etc. Jesus said that He that believes in Him, "the works that I do shall He do also..." The Bible teaches there are gifts of the Spirit given to the body of Christ "as He wills.

There is one purpose for signs, which is spelt out by Jesus to the disciples of John the Baptist in that Luke 7 passage I gave you.

As I already state to you, all signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

 

[CS1]

Give me the sermon by John calling himself a prophet, hahaha, you can’t. Nut i betcha i could find it! The word has only been used as in the foretelling of future events in more so recent times. It’s intent biblically was to teach the bible or expound on the meaning of the words in it (something you could use some help with before your actions take you to hell’s flames), so we are all to be prophets teaching God’s word and the truth that is in God’s word and the meaning of the words there in. C

a troll

 

[presidente]

And yet you refuse to see that the things you seem to need were for another time and not now,

The Bible teaches the gifts are given to members of the body of Christ. There is no reason from scripture to think healing and miracles are not for the body of Christ now. Some commentators assume they are not then try to reinterpret some vague patterns they think they see in scripture to support that, like your buddy John MacArthur. But that is bad hermeneutics.

why do you need these things in a time when they are not needed

I honor the scriptures on this topic which you reject. Scripture even uses 'needs in reference to other members of the body of Christ who have a number of gifts.

but for emotional trip’n?

I do not believe gifts are "emotional trip’n ". If you want to argue with a straw man, why don't you create another account and post the viewpoint you want to argue with under that username...in some forum where that is allowed?

Why can’t you accept the gifts given through the challenges of life and leaning into the nreast of Jesus for the strength to go on and not these supernatural shenanigans you so desperately seem to need to escape the challenges of life that teach us submission into the Saviour to savour the learning time and not try to escape from it through instant gratification?

Spiritual gifts in the church in the first century did not keep saints from leaning into Christ? Gifts of the Spirit are manifestations of grace, and you should not have a negative attitude about them.

Have you ever bothered to read I Corinthians 12. Read it and ask yourself if the passage teaches you to have a negative attitude about spiritual gifts. Does the passage teach they are for the church?

 

[presidente]

Social media sites, hummmm....rrrriiiight, there are oodles and oodles of healings in movies from out of hollywood too, gee it’s gotta be true then. Jesus and the boy’s wiped out sickness and disease in their area and time via the real miracles they were doing.....where is that happening today in the very same way?

Again, where evidence, you discount it as fake. If you do not even consider this type of evidence, then consider what the scripture teaches. You clearly do not believe what it says on this topic.

 

[notuptome]

Why would Jesus fret over the ailments of the flesh. He repeatedly healed people of such ailments.

Jesus declared He was God by His works. He knew that even with their bodies healed they needed to be forgiven of their sins to enter eternal life. Priorities are important. The sermon on the mount sets the priorities. Entering into heaven lame is better than not entering.

Many instances of tongues fit what is described in I Corinthians, both the disorderly version and more akin to what Paul recommends, depending on what church it is. But, on occasion, someone speaks in a tongue that someone else present understands. There were numerous accounts of this in the Azusa Street Revival's newsletter 'The Apostolic Faith'. It is possible to find them online, maybe from Flower's library. Anyway, these testimonies were not just from Azusa Street but from revival meetings all over the world. I counted many in just a couple of editions of the newsletter. I remember someone identifying another's tongue as Armenian. A missions director hoped that someone could identify speaking in tongues. He wrote that someone he knew spoke in an Indian language he had learned in his childhood, but she was from the opposite side of the country from where this native language was spoken. Canada is a big place. 'Fire on Azusa' by Val Dez has a testimony about this in Russian. Historian Vinson Synan interviewed participants of the Azusa Street Revival, and one of them said that speaking in tongues in languages of the people, Japanese, etc., is what drew the crowds.

There have been numerous other events. I have spoken with or corresponded with a number of people who testify to either speaking in tongues in a language that was identified by others as a language they knew or hearing 'tongues' in a language they knew. There were testimonies of this sort of thing in the Assemblies of God, also. There was a book in the '70's, 'Spoken by the Spirit' that reported 70 or so similar testimonies.

Nothing more than the unverified statements of questionable men. What you claim as truth is not found in the bible. You are way out of context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

You see you are ignorant in the meaning and use of the words you use.....the word prophesy was used in the act of teaching the word, expounding on it in the bible’s original intent. It was not till later did the word take on the meaning if foretelling the future, but would you actually look up the meaning and history of the words you use? Or just blindly chase after your emotional trip’n?
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes (see prophet

Pp]

There is one purpose for signs, which is spelt out by Jesus to the disciples of John the Baptist in that Luke 7 passage I gave you.

As I already state to you, all signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live and not die. The shadow moved the opposite direction from normal. Are you saying the only purpose of that sign was the one you describe above?

The apostles asked Jesus about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Was the only purpose of these signs so that Jews could know that Jesus was the Messiah who had come? I would imagine just about every eschatological system has some of these signs occurring after the ascension.

You cannot support from scripture that there was only one purposes for signs, and there are scriptures that contradict your viewpoint

 

[Guojing]

Pp]
Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live and not die. The shadow moved the opposite direction from normal. Are you saying the only purpose of that sign was the one you describe above?

The apostles asked Jesus about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Was the only purpose of these signs so that Jews could know that Jesus was the Messiah who had come? I would imagine just about every eschatological system has some of these signs occurring after the ascension.

You cannot support from scripture that there was only one purposes for signs, and there are scriptures that contradict your viewpoint

So what is your understanding of Luke 7:18-22 that I have used?

 

[CS1]

So the ending of the need to reveal to the Israelites that the Holy Spirit is now gone to the gentiles has not finished and we have to keep telling the world that this is the church age to the gentiles? That is what the signs were for and so why do you need to keep doing it or encouraging it? Who are the Israelites you and yours are revealing this message to when your doing your thing?

you really don't read your bible, do you? I think you are more a troll and very much speaking babble known as anecdotal.

You have not used ONE Biblical text or passage or verse to support your unbiblical claims or opinion.

You are suggesting that the only reason for the Holy Spirit working of signs & wonders was to reveal to the Israelites and then to the gentiles and both are finished?

What are you saying? Jesus is the authority on the subject In Luke chapter 4 :18-19

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Here is Jesus is saying why HE came in addition to dying on the cross for the sins of the world

He told Pilate in John 18:37

To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.


These works Jesus said HE did and to His disciples, you shall do them also. And Jesus instructed the Apostles to teach those to follow me and do the same things.

Are there people still Poor? have broken hearts? Need deliverance and held captive? YES!

The Lord has placed the power and commissioned HIS Body to GO out and do the same things HE did. How many have you led to the Lord this year? How many Hospitals have you visited and prayed with People? What is your testiphony , I mean Testimony?


You quote the verse as many of those who attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a fake rebuke to those who are Pentecostals

Matthew 12: 39

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign"

yet that is not the full context of the partial verse the latter part of that very is

; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Who was Jesus speaking to? Was Jesus speaking to those who came to HIM believing HE could heal as Mulitdues came for as the Bible states? This verse has nothing to do with a pentecostal or anyone for that matter who believe God can do and seeking HIM for.

The seeking after a "sign" is in context to those who told Jesus in verse 38

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

They were demanding Jesus to prove to them who HE said HE was because you read the whole Chapter you will see up in the verses like at 14 they plotted how to destroy HIM.

Jesus is not saying to those words to those WHO are seeking HIM to do what HE said HE came to do and believe HE can.

HE said those words to those who said nor did they believe He is who he said He is.

So, when you try to use that us a pentecostal please look in the mirror we do not seek a sign to have Jesu Prove who HE is

I believe Jesus can and still does and willing to ask HIM to do it again today. We are not seeking after a sign like you, we believe Jesus, and the signs follows those who Believe as Jesus said in Mark 16.

 

[Magenta]

You see you are ignorant in the meaning and use of the words you use.....the word prophesy was used in the act of teaching the word, expounding on it in the bible’s original intent. It was not till later did the word take on the meaning if foretelling the future, but would you actually look up the meaning and history of the words you use? Or just blindly chase after your emotional trip’n?
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes (see prophet

So now you finally agree with me on the meaning of the word "prophesy." Thanks!

Funny/peculiar how you have been wrong all along while seeking to project your error.

 

[CS1]

Jesus declared He was God by His works. He knew that even with their bodies healed they needed to be forgiven of their sins to enter eternal life. Priorities are important. The sermon on the mount sets the priorities. Entering into heaven lame is better than not entering.

Nothing more than the unverified statements of questionable men. What you claim as truth is not found in the bible. You are way out of context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is your testimony in the Bible? If Not why do you tell it? Your hateful venom to those you disagree with is why you need to go. You are a troll. it is truly one's experience that doesn't validate the word of God BUT it can bring glory to HIM IF the person is saying God did it

Such foolish person you are to attack those with some fake self-righteous response like you gave :

"What you claim as truth is not found in the bible."

And neither is your claim of God saving you in the bible, But you tell people you are, why? Oh my, you are saying something that was not written in the bible of an experience you believe God did so you better NOT tell anyone. Your hypocrisy knows no level.

 

[presidente]

Jesus declared He was God by His works. He knew that even with their bodies healed they needed to be forgiven of their sins to enter eternal life. Priorities are important. The sermon on the mount sets the priorities. Entering into heaven lame is better than not entering.

I agree there are priorities. Forgiveness of sin is much more important than physical healing. but physical healing has a role in the priorities, also. If it did not, you would not take care of your own health.

Nothing more than the unverified statements of questionable men. What you claim as truth is not found in the bible. You are way out of context.

Testimony of witnesses is a Biblical form of evidence. Your approach to the topic is to try to fit an idea into a passage where it does not fit well, and use that as 'proof' of your position.

 

[presidente]

You see you are ignorant in the meaning and use of the words you use.....the word prophesy was used in the act of teaching the word, expounding on it in the bible’s original intent. It was not till later did the word take on the meaning if foretelling the future, but would you actually look up the meaning and history of the words you use? Or just blindly chase after your emotional trip’n?
The English noun "prophecy", in the sense of "function of a prophet" appeared from about 1225, from Old French profecie (12th century), and from prophetia, Greek propheteia "gift of interpreting the will of God", from Greek prophetes (see prophet

Before, you were arguing that the word meant to predict the future. When Magenta disagreed, you wrote,

....you play with words “prophesy isn’t always”, just like satan twisted God’s words in the garden to Eve the serpent said to the woman “Surely you won’t die!”, your being just like him by twisting the meaning of the words. No, you won’t die right this moment Eve, but your sweet innocence is now destroyed!

So now you are agreeing that prophecy isn't always predicting the future. So are you fulfilling 'being just like him' [Satan] now by arguing that prophesy does not always mean to predict the future? You just leveled all those accusations against someone for arguing against your previous position.

The bigger issue here is one of sin. Slandering people is a sin. You go around accusing left and right in this thread. Here, you are proven to be in error and backtracked, changing your previous stance. That would not be a big deal, except you just accused someone of being like Satan for not agreeing with your previous position.

The issue here is a sin issue. It is a sin to slander others, according to the Bible. The Bible does not say that it is a sin to believe that God does miracles, does miracles through individuals in the current age, heals through gifts of the Spirit, gifts some individuals to prophesy. In fact, I can show you scripture that teaches that these gifts are distributed among the members of the body of Christ.

 

[notuptome]

I agree there are priorities. Forgiveness of sin is much more important than physical healing. but physical healing has a role in the priorities, also. If it did not, you would not take care of your own health.

We know that God brings suffering and infirmity to believers to use them as a testimony of how to suffer for His names sake. Those who suffer are drawn closer to God and they testify of the goodness of God in suffering.

Testimony of witnesses is a Biblical form of evidence. Your approach to the topic is to try to fit an idea into a passage where it does not fit well, and use that as 'proof' of your position.

Only if the testimony is aligned with the word of God. Much of what men claim is false and does not align with the scripture. It will only increase until the Lord returns for His church. Strong delusion is increasing in the world but then lost souls are going to believe what lost souls believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ronair]

Most people spend most of their time getting on with the routine aspects of their lives without any emotional highs or lows. Charismatics are no different. What makes a Charismatic is that they believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit and seek to have them manifest in their services. Just because they go to church to have fun and laughter in their worship of God instead of feeling like they have to go to the dentist, doesn't mean they are seeking emotional highs. Many evangelic churches are so boring in their Sunday programmes, that any sense of enjoyment is seen as an emotional high.

This is your reply to my doubting your 50 years of being in the Charismatic church without seeing any emotional highs??? Really?

 

[presidente]

To @Lookupnotback and others on the definitions of 'prophecy' and 'prophesy.'

I do not believe that the general understanding of the word 'prophesy' in Old French was to accurately interpret scripture. I won't believe that until someone shows me an overwhelming number of instances of that in Old French and persuades me that there are not numerous counter examples. The Bible was translated into French in the 1550's, which would be Middle French. I suspect they used the word to translate the concept of the Greek word from which 'prophecy' is derived into Old French using the word.

My guess is your lexicographer who came up with the definition actually think that 'prophesy' means to interpret scripture, and he was reading that concept back into scripture. That is a very sloppy understanding of the word, and not very accurate as to how it is used in scripture.

Most of us on a Bible forum would use 'prophesy', 'prophecy' and 'prophet' to refer to the same types of things the Hebrew and Greek words so translated mean in the text of scripture. We might also allow for the fact that there is a 'secular' definition of prophesy, which means to predict the future, which could even be used in a non-religious context.

If you look up references, usually, the verse 'prophesy' in the Old Testament is often used in cases of predictive prophecy. But it is used of utterances spoken as God moved individuals to speak, who spoke words He gave them to speak. Deuteronomy mentions prophesying in the name of the LORD. Not all prophetic utterances are about the future. For genuine prophetic utterances, the unique characteristic of it is described by Peter when he refers to prophecies of times past, "...holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The architypical prophecy in the Old Testament is a first person quote from God that may start, "Thus saith the Lord" in some translations. But not all prophecies conform to this pattern, especially in the Psalms.

Someone prophesying, speaking a message from God on this way, could comment on scripture if that is what God has Him say. But commenting on scripture, 'preaching' or 'teaching' are not prophecy per se. Paul lists prophesying, teaching, exhortation, as different spiritual gifts in Romans 12. There is other evidence along these lines in I Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.

Some preachers in the Reformed movement equate prophesying with faithful preaching of the scriptures. They get this from John Calvin, who did not have a very accurate understanding of the term based on his commentaries in I Corinthians, though John Calvin's position on this was rather nuanced. To say that he equated preaching scripture with prophecy would not be accurate. His commentary on I Corinthians chapter 12, I think, or possibly 14, explains his view.