Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[PaulChristensen]

What would you say is happening in Corinthians, where they are behaving carnally but still have the gifts and the gifts are manifested a plenty ?

If you read the whole book of 1 Corinthians, you will see that Paul does not see them as totally carnal Christians as you suppose. Actually, a carnal Christian is not Christian at all, because he loves the world, and therefore the love of God is not in him.

Paul says that they come in no way behind according the Spiritual gifts, and that they were totally washed and cleansed. So they were not carnal at all. But because some in the church had a party spirit he said he had to speak with those ones as if they were carnal men.

Paul would say the same to those who put their denomination as a higher priority than faith in Christ Himself. These are the ones who say, "I am Presbyterian...Pentecostal...Charismatic...Methodist...Baptist, etc., and have no fellowship with those outside their separate denominations. Paul would see them as carnal, no matter how close they are to God, or how spiritual they think they are. He would see that they are no different in their attitude to anyone in the world.

So, if one is going to use the Corinthians as examples to carnality, then one should should to his own church and see how many enjoy free fellowship and equality with those outside their own denomination. Even those who refused to have fellowship with any church members at all outside their narrow circle of Christian friends, are just as carnal in their attitude as any who had a party spirit in the Corinthian church.

So those who see the Corinthian type mote in the eyes of Pentecostals or Charismatics, they should look in the mirror to see the great log in their own.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Your response is another evading of the truth that there are few (if any) true cases of speaking in tongues today. As such, it means everyone today does not wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but instead are all double minded, putting our faith in God and Mammon.
I will acknowledge this truth, as it will at some point set me free according to the Word. If on the other hand I continue to make up fables for why people today are not speaking in tongues or doing any of the other miracles that Christ said would follow those who believe in Him, then it will only result in my continuing to remain in darkness.

I hold to 1 Corinthians 14 as the standard. I just don't care about how Pentecostals, Charismatics decide to use their own standard. I also don't care about cessationist Evangelicals who ignore 1 Corinthians 14 altogether.

I have studied 1 Corinthians 14, and know it is just as applicable to us today as is all the other chapters of 1 Corinthians. We believe 1 Corinthians 12 about the body of Christ, 13 about love, 15 about the resurrection, and see those chapters as God's inspired Word, but we should also believe that chapter 14 is also God's inspired Word and is just as relevant today as are the other chapters.

It is a matter of whether one believes 1 Corinthians 14 as God's inspired Word for today, or one decides to deny it. If one decides to deny it, then that person is deciding to cherry pick what he decides to believe and what decides not to believe.

Of course, any part of God's Word that pricks his conscience, he can satisfies his conscience by deciding that those sections are not relevant to him and therefore he doesn't have to apply it to his own life.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation has requirements. One must believe the true Gospel of Christ, and put total faith and trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved. Although the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, when one turns from Christ and rejects Him rejects the gift of salvation and throws it back in God's face. The book of Hebrews tells us that if one who has tasted of the good things of God, turns away from Christ, he crucifies Christ afresh and treads His blood underfoot, and therefore there no further possibility of salvation.

I see, you are preaching the gospel of the kingdom there. I can understand better why you view signs like that too.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I see, you are preaching the gospel of the kingdom there. I can understand better why you view signs like that too.

There is only one Gospel and that is the Gospel based on Christ crucified and resurrected. Any other Gospel is about another Jesus and not the Jesus of the New Testament.

 

[Guojing]

There is only one Gospel and that is the Gospel based on Christ crucified and resurrected. Any other Gospel is about another Jesus and not the Jesus of the New Testament.

When you stated "The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved", you are preaching the gospel of the Kingdom preached by Jesus himself in Matthew 24:13.

So yes, it is still about Jesus of the NT.

 

[throughfaith]

If you read the whole book of 1 Corinthians, you will see that Paul does not see them as totally carnal Christians as you suppose. Actually, a carnal Christian is not Christian at all, because he loves the world, and therefore the love of God is not in him.

Paul says that they come in no way behind according the Spiritual gifts, and that they were totally washed and cleansed. So they were not carnal at all. But because some in the church had a party spirit he said he had to speak with those ones as if they were carnal men.

Paul would say the same to those who put their denomination as a higher priority than faith in Christ Himself. These are the ones who say, "I am Presbyterian...Pentecostal...Charismatic...Methodist...Baptist, etc., and have no fellowship with those outside their separate denominations. Paul would see them as carnal, no matter how close they are to God, or how spiritual they think they are. He would see that they are no different in their attitude to anyone in the world.

So, if one is going to use the Corinthians as examples to carnality, then one should should to his own church and see how many enjoy free fellowship and equality with those outside their own denomination. Even those who refused to have fellowship with any church members at all outside their narrow circle of Christian friends, are just as carnal in their attitude as any who had a party spirit in the Corinthian church.

So those who see the Corinthian type mote in the eyes of Pentecostals or Charismatics, they should look in the mirror to see the great log in their own.

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
( So clearly he speaks to them as carnal )

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
( And here Paul is telling them they are carnal .
The conclusion? Carnal believers .

 

[throughfaith]

If you read the whole book of 1 Corinthians, you will see that Paul does not see them as totally carnal Christians as you suppose. Actually, a carnal Christian is not Christian at all, because he loves the world, and therefore the love of God is not in him.

Paul says that they come in no way behind according the Spiritual gifts, and that they were totally washed and cleansed. So they were not carnal at all. But because some in the church had a party spirit he said he had to speak with those ones as if they were carnal men.

Paul would say the same to those who put their denomination as a higher priority than faith in Christ Himself. These are the ones who say, "I am Presbyterian...Pentecostal...Charismatic...Methodist...Baptist, etc., and have no fellowship with those outside their separate denominations. Paul would see them as carnal, no matter how close they are to God, or how spiritual they think they are. He would see that they are no different in their attitude to anyone in the world.

So, if one is going to use the Corinthians as examples to carnality, then one should should to his own church and see how many enjoy free fellowship and equality with those outside their own denomination. Even those who refused to have fellowship with any church members at all outside their narrow circle of Christian friends, are just as carnal in their attitude as any who had a party spirit in the Corinthian church.

So those who see the Corinthian type mote in the eyes of Pentecostals or Charismatics, they should look in the mirror to see the great log in their own.

Why are you adding ' totally ' ? And why are you adding another verse about ' loving the world ' . Your answering this eratically ..Theres no mention of loving the world '. Your adding your own spin on what a carnal believer is ( or a believer behaving the way they are in 1cor 3 ) . ?

 

[throughfaith]

Salvation has requirements. One must believe the true Gospel of Christ, and put total faith and trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved. Although the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, when one turns from Christ and rejects Him rejects the gift of salvation and throws it back in God's face. The book of Hebrews tells us that if one who has tasted of the good things of God, turns away from Christ, he crucifies Christ afresh and treads His blood underfoot, and therefore there no further possibility of salvation.

How do you 'throw back ' regeneration , and spiritual circumcision ( the operation of God ) Are you not just throwing terms around that sound virtuous but don't correlate to how a person is saved today. Could Adam reverse his situation After his fall ?

 

[throughfaith]

Salvation has requirements. One must believe the true Gospel of Christ, and put total faith and trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved. Although the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, when one turns from Christ and rejects Him rejects the gift of salvation and throws it back in God's face. The book of Hebrews tells us that if one who has tasted of the good things of God, turns away from Christ, he crucifies Christ afresh and treads His blood underfoot, and therefore there no further possibility of salvation.

///The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end /// Your taking this verse and misapplying it . It relates to the tribulation period .This is a perfect verse to mis use for those that teach conditional or lordship salvation.

 

[Aidan1]

really ?

Please remember what you have said :

• “today nobody could Show me that this Pentecostal doctrine was taught to the believers of the NT”
• “I mean the teaching what is called the 2nd blessing ore the empowerment with the Holy Spirit, which is taught in various forms since Azusa.”
• “You are right, all scriptures (66books) are from God. But if you believe all the scripture is for us Christians you are wrong. “
• “Thats correct., and they used it manly for jews, because the OT is about their history with God.

You do not know what you are talking about. And speaking in not proof one has been baptized in the Holy Spirit is one of the initial evidence that is recorded when the empowering of the Holy Spirit as you will see in Acts 2. Jesus said in Acts chapter one verse eight

" you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you. "

You will see this happen in Acts 2:4 Acts 11:15–16: , Acts 19:1–6 all done prior to and taught prior to the 1900s. Paul Who taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1corthinaians chapters 12 through 14 NEVER Said the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

Those in the 1900's that you like to speak about looked at only one book to formulate what you call Pentecostal doctrine, that was the bible.

You read still not what I wrote.
Speaking in tongues as Initial evidence for receiving the Holy Spirit, was never taught to Christians! You find no Single vers in the bible.
Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 speaking from events/ facts which taken place for to proof that the Holy Spirit came ( Acts 2) and that he came not only for the jews, but for all mankind (8, 10, 19). Not more and not less.

 

[CS1]

And church history gives the real reasons why the gifts dried up and declined. It was the church departed from God's standards for what the church should be, and so the Holy Spirit stopped supporting it, and for over 1000 years it became an idolatrous cult full of paganised ceremonies and rituals worshiping in paganised temples. There were attempts by groups of genuine Christians who tried to restore the church back to what God's Word says it should be, but these groups were brutally suppressed by the antichrist papal cult. It was only when genuine Christian groups got free from that bondage because of the Reformation that the Holy Spirit was able to start restoring the church to where it was in the 1st Century.

The trouble is, that most Evangelical churches have not got themselves free from the paganised temple type, man-programmed observance which quenches and grieves the Holy Spirit. But they won't admit that they are the ones at fault for the absence of the gifts of the Spirit, and so they carry on in the vain hope that the Holy Spirit might start supporting and working with them one day.

I would say the Holy Spirit did not dry up LOL I would say the silent / dark age of the church which called that was because God was not speaking anymore and the church became powerless because they no longer followed the word of God. It was the church that allowed atheism and pagan practice into the church.

The Holy Spirit did what HE all did when disobedience and offense to God HE departed and wrote Ichabod.


But the Holy Spirit will seek out those who desire God and reveal Himself to them as HE did down through the church age. Knowledge increased and so did pride and many trusted human intellect over the word of God because it was "impossible " for a global flood or the Red Sea account was metaphorical or symbolism. Many isms came over the years down through the church age and all were to bring doubt I the word of God.

 

[luigi]

I hold to 1 Corinthians 14 as the standard. I just don't care about how Pentecostals, Charismatics decide to use their own standard. I also don't care about cessationist Evangelicals who ignore 1 Corinthians 14 altogether.

I have studied 1 Corinthians 14, and know it is just as applicable to us today as is all the other chapters of 1 Corinthians. We believe 1 Corinthians 12 about the body of Christ, 13 about love, 15 about the resurrection, and see those chapters as God's inspired Word, but we should also believe that chapter 14 is also God's inspired Word and is just as relevant today as are the other chapters.

It is a matter of whether one believes 1 Corinthians 14 as God's inspired Word for today, or one decides to deny it. If one decides to deny it, then that person is deciding to cherry pick what he decides to believe and what decides not to believe.

Of course, any part of God's Word that pricks his conscience, he can satisfies his conscience by deciding that those sections are not relevant to him and therefore he doesn't have to apply it to his own life.

I totally believe 1 Corinthians 14, along with the rest of Corinthians to be the inspired Word of God. As such, I then have to ask myself, Why do I not see the miracles the Lord says follows those who believe in Him, which includes the speaking in tongues? The answer to this in my opinion is that the church today is far from what the church of the first century was, and that we do not believe in Christ as wholeheartedly as did the first century church. We are therefore more double minded in our faith.

 

[CS1]

You read still not what I wrote.
Speaking in tongues as Initial evidence for receiving the Holy Spirit, was never taught to Christians! You find no Single vers in the bible.
Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 speaking from events/ facts which taken place for to proof that the Holy Spirit came ( Acts 2) and that he came not only for the jews, but for all mankind (8, 10, 19). Not more and not less.

There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. The Book of Acts which I like to call the Acts of the Holy Spirit shows each time tongues or prophesying to confirm one who was baptized in the Holy Spirit That did not have to be taught it is clearly seen in the book of Acts. What did Simon the sorcerer want to buy? What was it he saw after the Apostles laid their hands on people?
The Proof of the HOly Spirt came was in Acts 2. it was Jesus who said in Mark 16 and it is John chapter one that says we are to be baptized with the baptism of Jesus wich you will see was the Holy Spirit who came upon Jesus as recorded in all gospels.

This was the power, this is the comforter to all Christians not just the jews or gentiles but to as many as call on the name of the Lord shall be saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit both men and women.

 

[Aidan1]

There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. The Book of Acts which I like to call the Acts of the Holy Spirit shows each time tongues or prophesying to confirm one who was baptized in the Holy Spirit That did not have to be taught it is clearly seen in the book of Acts. What did Simon the sorcerer want to buy? What was it he saw after the Apostles laid their hands on people?
The Proof of the HOly Spirt came was in Acts 2. it was Jesus who said in Mark 16 and it is John chapter one that says we are to be baptized with the baptism of Jesus wich you will see was the Holy Spirit who came upon Jesus as recorded in all gospels.

This was the power, this is the comforter to all Christians not just the jews or gentiles but to as many as call on the name of the Lord shall be saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit both men and women.

As I said, you read not what I wrote.
Btw there was in the days of Jesus on earth from the view of an jew. Only jews ore gentiles ( let we proselytes away which came out of gentiles)

 

[CS1]

As I said, you read not what I wrote.
Btw there was in the days of Jesus on earth from the view of an jew. Only jews ore gentiles ( let we proselytes away which came out of gentiles)

I'm sorry I do not know what you are saying. I find it hard to read what you have written.
What you did write was :


"You read still not what I wrote.
Speaking in tongues as Initial evidence for receiving the Holy Spirit, was never taught to Christians! You find no Single vers in the bible.
Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 speaking from events/ facts which taken place for to proof that the Holy Spirit came ( Acts 2) and that he came not only for the jews, but for all mankind (8, 10, 19). Not more and not less." post#690


there are many doctrines today that were named in the Word of God for example the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of Kenosis what is your point? What is seen is the gift of Tongues down through the AGES OF THE CHURCH and continuing today.
You think that at the canonization of the bible the Holy Spirit gifts ceased yet NOWHERE in church history was that taught
The cessationist doctrine arose in the Protestant Reformation, so your point is mote.

I know you think John Calvin wrote the gospel of John, but he did not. So I too can say something about Cessationism. Which I might add is just as new as the Gifts are for today and initial Evidence. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[ronair]

There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. The Book of Acts which I like to call the Acts of the Holy Spirit shows each time tongues or prophesying to confirm one who was baptized in the Holy Spirit That did not have to be taught it is clearly seen in the book of Acts. What did Simon the sorcerer want to buy? What was it he saw after the Apostles laid their hands on people?
The Proof of the HOly Spirt came was in Acts 2. it was Jesus who said in Mark 16 and it is John chapter one that says we are to be baptized with the baptism of Jesus wich you will see was the Holy Spirit who came upon Jesus as recorded in all gospels.

This was the power, this is the comforter to all Christians not just the jews or gentiles but to as many as call on the name of the Lord shall be saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit both men and women.

"There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. "

I find this sentence rather interesting. The Hebrews noticed that the supernatural falling of the manna stopped when they began eating of the food from the promised land. There was no mention from scripture that it was about to end, it just stopped without an official notice. Joshua 5:12

The same is true of tongues and the other supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It was meant for a time and that time is over, no need to be "taught" by the bible but "clearly seen".

If you were honest with yourself you could "clearly" see this.

 

[CS1]

"There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. "

I find this sentence rather interesting. The Hebrews noticed that the supernatural falling of the manna stopped when they began eating of the food from the promised land. There was no mention from scripture that it was about to end, it just stopped without an official notice. Joshua 5:12

The same is true of tongues and the other supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It was meant for a time and that time is over, no need to be "taught" by the bible but "clearly seen".

If you were honest with yourself you could "clearly" see this.

That is true it is mentioned when it stopped Joshua 5:12 BUT it was replaced with FOOD was it not the food did not cease to be provided. God did not stop languages in genesis he changed them.
There is nothing that says tongues or the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stoped. So God in 1cor chapter 12 does not do any of that huh? Or is it only tongues you have an issue with?

 

[ronair]

That is true it is mentioned when it stopped Joshua 5:12 BUT it was replaced with FOOD was it not the food did not cease to be provided. God did not stop languages in genesis he changed them.
There is nothing that says tongues or the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stoped. So God in 1cor chapter 12 does not do any of that huh? Or is it only tongues you have an issue with?

I am not really sure what to make of your response but God never told the Hebrews the date of its end or even if the supernatural falling of the manna was to stop, He just stopped it. If God desires to end something He is not bound by the weak and childish arguments of the modern day pentecostals.

I have read a number of your posts. You seem to reply rather quickly and so your responses are not clear. I suggest you slow down and think about what you are about to write. Also please preview what you write, your grammer is hard to follow.

 

[PaulChristensen]

When you stated "The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved", you are preaching the gospel of the Kingdom preached by Jesus himself in Matthew 24:13.

So yes, it is still about Jesus of the NT.

I don't see any difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Christ. There is only one faith and one baptism. The Gospel that Paul preached is exactly the same as the one Jesus taught. Actually I don't see how this is significant to the issue of cessationism or continuance.

 

[PaulChristensen]

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
( So clearly he speaks to them as carnal )

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
( And here Paul is telling them they are carnal .
The conclusion? Carnal believers .

He is talking to the church as a whole and not to them as individual believers. A church can be carnal, such as one that is riddled with cessationism, denominational party spirit, and ceremonies and wisdom of man, but to accuse a person of being carnal is to accuse him of not being born again of the Spirit of God.