Pope Francis recently condemned capital punishment. R. De Souza (writer) disagrees w/ him

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JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
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#1
I read this article called


The Death Penalty… Is it according to Sacred Scripture? written by Raymond DeSouza



"Pope Francis declared... that the death penalty is 'contrary to the Gospel.’ He said that ‘however grave the crime… the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person’” (America, the Jesuit magazine, October 11, 2017)"
the author says that it seemed the whole body of Catholic teaching on the matter had been set aside, from the Old Testament to the New.

The author mentions that Pope John Paul II opposed the application of the death penalty, but hoped it would never be necessary to apply it, yet did not oppose it in principle.

Pope Francis modified the Catechism of the Catholic Church to exclude the death penalty... yet the God of the Old Testament is the… same God of the New, says De Souza. He asks: Did God change His mind?

Were all those in the Church including canonized saints who came before Francis wrong? The author reminds us that Jesus promised to protect the Church until the end of times (Mt 16:18), that the gates of Hell would not prevail?

The author asks if canonizations are infallible? If so, he wonders how could those saints be canonized if their teaching on capital punishment was “contrary to the Gospel”?

"I prefer to do a little Bible study," says De Souza, "and, by leaving aside the Old Testament, which is evidently in favor of the death penalty, see what our Lord says in the gospel [that] is supposedly contrary to capital punishment:

"First, the Parable of the King’s Marriage Feast:

“The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come.” We know that the invited guests abused the servants, and even actually killed some of them.

“But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burn their city” (Matthew 22)

Yes, the king had them all killed and their city was burned to the ground. No one remained to tell the story…"

Then De Souza mentions the Parable of the Wicked Wine dressers:

“There was a man who planted a vineyard… and let it out to husbandmen and went into a strange country. And when the time of the fruits drew nigh, he sent his servants to the husbandmen that they might receive the fruits thereof. And the husbandmen laying hands on his servants, beat one… killed another, and stoned another.”

They did the same with other servants then in the end killed the very son of the owner. Jesus asked the disciples: When, therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen?”

“They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end.” (Mt 21). Jesus accepted their judgment and did not correct them… did not say that their desire to give an evil end to those evil men attacked “the inviolability and the dignity of the person.”

Then there is the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:

In Luke 17, we learn of a man who owed much to his lord and begged to be given time to pay [the debt] which the lord, out of pity, agreed to. The servant… had a small debt to be paid him from another servant but he did not give the… man the time he needed, and sent him to prison. What happened next?

“And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.”

Jesus did not say that the unforgiving servant should be immediately killed, but should be tortured until he paid his debt. Torture obviously can be worse than death.

The author mentions other passages in the Bible.. I will address them later but really, this seems sufficient..
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
43
#2
De Souza brings up Mk 9:43: "And if thy hand scandalizes thee, but it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed then having 2 hands to go into Hell, into unquenchable fire"

I guess his point is that mutilation, something Jesus does not (the Catholic Church does not) normally condone and even teaches against.. is better than letting your hand or foot cause u to sin so as to end up in Hell..

De Souza says "Our Lord did not care very much for the 'inviolability and the dignity of the persons' of the Scribes and Pharisees when He shouted:

'Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; blind guides, foolish, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! You make clean the outside of the cup... but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness... full of all filthiness... outwardly... appear[ing] to men just, but inwardly... full of hypocrisy and iniquity.. Serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Hell?"

Lastly, the author mentions how a whole city, Capharnaum (that's how he spells it) is cast into Hell:

"And thou Capharnaum... thou shalt go down even unto Hell... I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for thee (Mt 11).

"Sodom was the object of a divine capital punishment by fire and brimstone..."
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,916
2,846
113
#4
I read this article called


The Death Penalty… Is it according to Sacred Scripture? written by Raymond DeSouza



"Pope Francis declared... that the death penalty is 'contrary to the Gospel.’ He said that ‘however grave the crime… the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person’” (America, the Jesuit magazine, October 11, 2017)"
the author says that it seemed the whole body of Catholic teaching on the matter had been set aside, from the Old Testament to the New.

The author mentions that Pope John Paul II opposed the application of the death penalty, but hoped it would never be necessary to apply it, yet did not oppose it in principle.

Pope Francis modified the Catechism of the Catholic Church to exclude the death penalty... yet the God of the Old Testament is the… same God of the New, says De Souza. He asks: Did God change His mind?

Were all those in the Church including canonized saints who came before Francis wrong? The author reminds us that Jesus promised to protect the Church until the end of times (Mt 16:18), that the gates of Hell would not prevail?

The author asks if canonizations are infallible? If so, he wonders how could those saints be canonized if their teaching on capital punishment was “contrary to the Gospel”?

"I prefer to do a little Bible study," says De Souza, "and, by leaving aside the Old Testament, which is evidently in favor of the death penalty, see what our Lord says in the gospel [that] is supposedly contrary to capital punishment:

"First, the Parable of the King’s Marriage Feast:

“The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come.” We know that the invited guests abused the servants, and even actually killed some of them.

“But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burn their city” (Matthew 22)

Yes, the king had them all killed and their city was burned to the ground. No one remained to tell the story…"

Then De Souza mentions the Parable of the Wicked Wine dressers:

“There was a man who planted a vineyard… and let it out to husbandmen and went into a strange country. And when the time of the fruits drew nigh, he sent his servants to the husbandmen that they might receive the fruits thereof. And the husbandmen laying hands on his servants, beat one… killed another, and stoned another.”

They did the same with other servants then in the end killed the very son of the owner. Jesus asked the disciples: When, therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen?”

“They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end.” (Mt 21). Jesus accepted their judgment and did not correct them… did not say that their desire to give an evil end to those evil men attacked “the inviolability and the dignity of the person.”

Then there is the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:

In Luke 17, we learn of a man who owed much to his lord and begged to be given time to pay [the debt] which the lord, out of pity, agreed to. The servant… had a small debt to be paid him from another servant but he did not give the… man the time he needed, and sent him to prison. What happened next?

“And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.”

Jesus did not say that the unforgiving servant should be immediately killed, but should be tortured until he paid his debt. Torture obviously can be worse than death.

The author mentions other passages in the Bible.. I will address them later but really, this seems sufficient..
Lord Jesus spoke in parables. The "prison" for the unjust servant is spiritual. Unforgiving Christians do not get their prayers answered and are bound by fear, unhappiness, resentment and bitterness. The tormentors are evil spirits, not physical beings.

In principle, capital punishment is fine. However, the legal system is so flawed and corrupt than too many innocent people are put to death while the guilty escape. In this life at least. No one escapes God's judgement.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,857
26,019
113
#5
no idea why there is a strike through

?
Lastly, the author mentions how a whole city, Capharnaum (that's how he spells it) is cast into Hell:

"And thou Capharnaum... thou shalt go down even unto Hell... I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for thee (Mt 11).

"Sodom was the object of a divine capital punishment by fire and brimstone..."
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#7
I read this article called


The Death Penalty… Is it according to Sacred Scripture? written by Raymond DeSouza



"Pope Francis declared... that the death penalty is 'contrary to the Gospel.’ He said that ‘however grave the crime… the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person’” (America, the Jesuit magazine, October 11, 2017)"
the author says that it seemed the whole body of Catholic teaching on the matter had been set aside, from the Old Testament to the New.

The author mentions that Pope John Paul II opposed the application of the death penalty, but hoped it would never be necessary to apply it, yet did not oppose it in principle.

Pope Francis modified the Catechism of the Catholic Church to exclude the death penalty... yet the God of the Old Testament is the… same God of the New, says De Souza. He asks: Did God change His mind?

Were all those in the Church including canonized saints who came before Francis wrong? The author reminds us that Jesus promised to protect the Church until the end of times (Mt 16:18), that the gates of Hell would not prevail?

The author asks if canonizations are infallible? If so, he wonders how could those saints be canonized if their teaching on capital punishment was “contrary to the Gospel”?

"I prefer to do a little Bible study," says De Souza, "and, by leaving aside the Old Testament, which is evidently in favor of the death penalty, see what our Lord says in the gospel [that] is supposedly contrary to capital punishment:

"First, the Parable of the King’s Marriage Feast:

“The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come.” We know that the invited guests abused the servants, and even actually killed some of them.

“But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burn their city” (Matthew 22)

Yes, the king had them all killed and their city was burned to the ground. No one remained to tell the story…"

Then De Souza mentions the Parable of the Wicked Wine dressers:

“There was a man who planted a vineyard… and let it out to husbandmen and went into a strange country. And when the time of the fruits drew nigh, he sent his servants to the husbandmen that they might receive the fruits thereof. And the husbandmen laying hands on his servants, beat one… killed another, and stoned another.”

They did the same with other servants then in the end killed the very son of the owner. Jesus asked the disciples: When, therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen?”

“They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end.” (Mt 21). Jesus accepted their judgment and did not correct them… did not say that their desire to give an evil end to those evil men attacked “the inviolability and the dignity of the person.”

Then there is the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:

In Luke 17, we learn of a man who owed much to his lord and begged to be given time to pay [the debt] which the lord, out of pity, agreed to. The servant… had a small debt to be paid him from another servant but he did not give the… man the time he needed, and sent him to prison. What happened next?

“And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.”

Jesus did not say that the unforgiving servant should be immediately killed, but should be tortured until he paid his debt. Torture obviously can be worse than death.

The author mentions other passages in the Bible.. I will address them later but really, this seems sufficient..
Little hard to believe that from the church that started the Crusades and the Inquisition...
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,193
6,536
113
#8
Don't know the Writer, and I am not Catholic, so I don't care what the Pope thinks. However, there are scriptural passages in both the Old and New Testaments that support the death penalty.

FYI, while I recognize that it is Biblical, I personally do not believe I ever could (were I serving on a Jury) vote to put someone to death. Each person must decide that for themselves if they are ever faced with the situation. The fact that it does not go against Scripture, does not mean a Christian MUST vote to impose that punishment.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
1,434
477
83
#9
The Pope and a convicted felon... I suppose God could use anyone to share/interpret the word of God, but I would be especially careful in this case.
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
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#10
Lord Jesus spoke in parables. The "prison" for the unjust servant is spiritual. Unforgiving Christians do not get their prayers answered and are bound by fear, unhappiness, resentment and bitterness. The tormentors are evil spirits, not physical beings.

In principle, capital punishment is fine. However, the legal system is so flawed and corrupt than too many innocent people are put to death while the guilty escape. In this life at least. No one escapes God's judgement.
i u/stand the 2nd sentence here but not the first..

please explain and I do agree w/ the 2nd sentence. Many have been put to death who later were foundto be innocent through DNA testing... Well, I don't know about "many" but obviously ONE is too many...
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
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#11
The Pope and a convicted felon... I suppose God could use anyone to share/interpret the word of God, but I would be especially careful in this case.
huh?

who is "convicted felon"??
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
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#12
Little hard to believe that from the church that started the Crusades and the Inquisition...
The Church didn't start anything nefarious. Certain members thereof w ere sinners

shocking but true

another shocking thing: there are sinners in all "churches"
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
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#13
so, who is wrong, the pope or Mr De Souza?

that is what I w ant to discuss
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
275
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#14
The pope is wrong. He is heretical, hasbeen for a long time.

I dont think he has "taught" anything "ex cathedra" so it doesn't matter what he SAYS in casual conversation.

in other words, what he says is NOT dogma just by saying it. He hasto go by the criteria set for infallibility..
 

JesusWhereRU

Active member
Apr 16, 2021
840
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#15
This kind of brings up that old

Whatever happend to God's wrath

question....
 

BigSky2021

Active member
Apr 23, 2021
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#16
The Pope and a convicted felon...
I believe the other DeSouza, Mr. Dinesh is the one you are thinking of as to having a conviction. This Fr. Raymond DeSouza is a different fellow

Easy mistake to make though, as Mr. Dinesh is often at odds with the NWO types, including the Pope
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,416
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#17
I am not Catholic, so I don't care what the Pope thinks.
The pope has tremendous influence among those who believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church of Christ. What these gullible Catholics have failed to notice is that Pope Francis is a RADICAL LEFTIST GLOBALIST (Communist would be appropriate) whose main purpose in life is to undermine and destroy Western and Christian societies and nations. So while non-Catholics may dismiss his evil words, Catholics are torn between listening to him or what their church teaches. He should have been forced to resign long ago, but that may never happen.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
1,434
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#19
I believe the other DeSouza, Mr. Dinesh is the one you are thinking of as to having a conviction. This Fr. Raymond DeSouza is a different fellow

Easy mistake to make though, as Mr. Dinesh is often at odds with the NWO types, including the Pope
Yes indeed. lol
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,916
2,846
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#20
i u/stand the 2nd sentence here but not the first..

please explain and I do agree w/ the 2nd sentence. Many have been put to death who later were foundto be innocent through DNA testing... Well, I don't know about "many" but obviously ONE is too many...
God ordained capital punishment for many offences. Nowhere in the NT does it say to outlaw capital punishment. It's not the role of the church to dictate the law to the world system. We should be praying for our governments that they be pleasing to God. Then the laws will be pleasing to God also.