50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

It's a good post, but you made it look as if the 5th seal martyrs were martyr during the days of GT. That simply cannot be true, The days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until the last half of the week. Then from John we learn that the Beast and False prophet or responsible for these days. Then we see God warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, and finally, we see the martyrs of the tribulation starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15: those mentioned in 20:4-5. The truth is, the 5th seal martyrs are church age martyrs. Most people reading about the seals are 2000 years again of Jesus and John. John does not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal.

Rev 14 starts with firstfruit JEWS gathered and in HEAVEN.
Then angels preach the gospel to the entire earth. Heaven says BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DIE IN THE LORD FROM THIS DAY FORWARD.
then main JEWISH harvest by Jesus on a cloud ,with a sickle IMMEDIATELY before wrath.

You are looking at the last harvest. Jewish harvest.

Those commanded to refuse the mark are stragglers.

If you study harvest it is 4 parts.
Firstfruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

Rev 14 is a separate harvest. Jews.

Complete with firstfruit Jews as gathered first ( 144k)

 

[FreeGrace2]

mat 25 tells us who are left behind.
Virgins
Believers
Carnal christians. Uncommited with no intimacy.

Really? Matt 25 doesn't even mention a rapture.

Are you aware of Acts 24:15? How many resurrections are mentioned? And who is the subject of each resurrection?

Now, with that information, how does the Bible describe tribulation martyrs who are resurrected? Hint: Rev 20:5.

Which of the 2 resurrections mentioned in Acts 24:15 occurs before the other one?

Can you connect these dots?

 

[Truth7t7]

"""The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees"""

sealed church?
where is that?
any verse that there is a sealed church in the gt?
the ac kills the sealed church?

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Evmur]

No, because the church is going pretrib. Those left behind who then turn to God - the tribulation saints - cannot escape God's wrath, OR the devil's wrath. It is written that they will be overcome.

Left behind? that is Hal Lindsay muck. None of God's children will be left behind.

On what basis would God's blood bought people be left behind?

Hal Lindsay has made more money out of his left behind nonsense than the so - called "healers" have made.

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 14 starts with firstfruit JEWS gathered and in HEAVEN.
Then angels preach the gospel to the entire earth. Heaven says BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DIE IN THE LORD FROM THIS DAY FORWARD.
then main JEWISH harvest by Jesus on a cloud ,with a sickle IMMEDIATELY before wrath.

You are looking at the last harvest. Jewish harvest.

Those commanded to refuse the mark are stragglers.

If you study harvest it is 4 parts.
Firstfruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

Rev 14 is a separate harvest. Jews.

Complete with firstfruit Jews as gathered first ( 144k)

Matthew 13:37-43KJV
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Evmur]

You know, our theology could only be inches apart.

You consider Tribulation Saints, part of the Church Age.

I do not, a Separate group of Saints, so we have to be Raptured before the first Head of the Tribulation Saints is Chopped off.

The reason I say that is the Tribulation Saints pop up in Heaven after we are already their.

O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints are those according to Mal. 3:6, the LORD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore both are Saved and both are not destined to wrath, and it maybe these that did not make the RAPTURE, but KNOW WHY, are given a second chance at HIS MERCY and Grace.

Here is were I get the fact that we are already there, when the Tribulation Saints arrive.

Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.


ELDERS of the CHURCH AGE, is a UNIQUE Office of the CHURCH AGE, that does not happen in Jewish Synagogue. Yes the Village has Elders, but not the Synagogues. OH, and that is a BIG PRETRIBULATION CLUE.

The Jews will not be raptured, the nation of Israel will be converted when they look upon Him whom they have pierced. They become a nation of priests and kings in the new age, the millennium. ... the Wrath of God begins in the house of God, the temple when Jesus will destroy Antichrist and the wrath is poured out upon all who came up with him to invade Israel. God will fight against them as He fought in Israel's defence in olden days.

The church is gone, not a hoof or horn of it will remain.

The reign of Christ will be rolled out from Jerusalem, all who surrender and submit to Christ through the Jews will be saved, all who continue to rebel [always a 1/3 in revelations] will be subject to God's wrath.

THAT'S the way it will be.

 

[Truth7t7]

Left behind? that is Hal Lindsay muck. None of God's children will be left behind.

On what basis would God's blood bought people be left behind?

Hal Lindsay has made more money out of his left behind nonsense than the so - called "healers" have made.

Dallas Theological Alumni, Adulterer Hal Lindsey, Lots Of Money From Book Sales, and like four wives along the way

Add to that Dallas Theological Alumni Tim La Haye In His (Left Behind Series), Books And Movies $$$

 

[Runningman]

Left behind? that is Hal Lindsay muck. None of God's children will be left behind.

On what basis would God's blood bought people be left behind?

Hal Lindsay has made more money out of his left behind nonsense than the so - called "healers" have made.

I'm convinced that part of the pre-trib doctrine involves Hollywood propaganda rather than as actual Biblical concepts.

For example, believing in the pre-trib rapture doesn't effect one's standing with God. They may be wrong and deceived, but God promised that whosoever shall put their faith in His Son they'll receive mercy and forgiveness on judgment day and eternal life.

The problem with the pre-trib doctrine is that I'm actually worried it's an end times deception that will be instrumental in the great apostasy or falling away [of the church] described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

According to the Bible, the return of Christ, rapture, first resurrection don't happen until after the great tribulation. There are a lot of people who flatly reject this, but once the GT comes they will not recognize it as the GT because they'll be looking for their rapture first. The pre-trib rapture will never come. This could cause a lot of people to fall away or commit apostasy like the Bible says.

After the great apostasy the man of sin is revealed sitting in the temple of God. There is not currently a temple of God built to old testament specifications so this is a prophecy that a future third temple will exist and guess who will be sitting in it claiming to be God? The anti-Christ.

By the time Jesus returns the AC will be on of the first casualties who is destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

We are fortunate enough to know all of this in advance, praise God. So when tribulation comes don't lose heart because we know the end is near.

 

[Evmur]

Pretty much so.
The ac kills all believers early in the trib

We agree on that ...

 

[Truth7t7]

The Jews will not be raptured, the nation of Israel will be converted when they look upon Him whom they have pierced. They become a nation of priests and kings in the new age, the millennium. ... the Wrath of God begins in the house of God, the temple when Jesus will destroy Antichrist and the wrath is poured out upon all who came up with him to invade Israel. God will fight against them as He fought in Israel's defence in olden days.

The church is gone, not a hoof or horn of it will remain.

The reign of Christ will be rolled out from Jerusalem, all who surrender and submit to Christ through the Jews will be saved, all who continue to rebel [always a 1/3 in revelations] will be subject to God's wrath.

THAT'S the way it will be.

Your Claim Of A Future Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Is False

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[VCO]

It's a good post, but you made it look as if the 5th seal martyrs were martyr during the days of GT. That simply cannot be true, The days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until the last half of the week. Then from John we learn that the Beast and False prophet or responsible for these days. Then we see God warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, and finally, we see the martyrs of the tribulation starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15: those mentioned in 20:4-5. The truth is, the 5th seal martyrs are church age martyrs. Most people reading about the seals are 2000 years again of Jesus and John. John does not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal.

John is Called up to HEAVEN, either spiritually or in a vision at REV. 4:1, which is ALL FUTURE PROPHECY from that point ON.
I do not know Who taught you that wild theory, but it is the Wrong Interpertation. I can HIGHY recommend that 37 hours series by Dr. John MacArthur. YES, it is all part of the Great Tribulation which last 7 years, but it INTENSIFIES as it GOES ALONG. The RED HORSE is WAR, and can only be World War III, full scale nuclear war. Towards the end of Chapter 6, GOD WRATH intensifies to wear it becomes obvious. https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=66&chapter=0

Sorry about the typos, in the last post. I typed that LATE after midnight last night and was very tired.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Jews will not be raptured, the nation of Israel will be converted when they look upon Him whom they have pierced. They become a nation of priests and kings in the new age, the millennium. ... the Wrath of God begins in the house of God, the temple when Jesus will destroy Antichrist and the wrath is poured out upon all who came up with him to invade Israel. God will fight against them as He fought in Israel's defence in olden days.

The church is gone, not a hoof or horn of it will remain.

The reign of Christ will be rolled out from Jerusalem, all who surrender and submit to Christ through the Jews will be saved, all who continue to rebel [always a 1/3 in revelations] will be subject to God's wrath.

THAT'S the way it will be.

Your Claim Of A Future Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Is False

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[lamad]

No it is NOT. Rev. 4:1 is the beginning of John VISION.

Revelation 4:1 (HCSB)
1 After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said,
“Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Yes, of course, but I was talking about INSIDE THE VISION. Jesus started this vision of a time before Jesus ascended.

 

[Truth7t7]

We agree on that ...

You Agree With Absolutely That All The Church Is Killed, Because You Disregard Gods Words Below

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Evmur]

That depends what YOU mean by Great Persecution. From GOD, NO. From the World, COULD BE, unless chooses to remove us First.

I believe this VERSE will absolutely answer your question.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 (ESV)
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


It also depended on which group of Saints HE is talking to.
O.T. Saints are part of the Dead in Messiah, and will be raised first at the Rapture.
N.T. Saints that have died, are part of the Dead in Messiah, Christ.
N.T. Saints still living at the Rapture, we will be CAUGHT UP to forever be with CHRIST, in the clouds.
Tribulation Saints, will be beheaded by the Antichrist, but the very last one will be beheaded near the Mid-Trib or shortly there after.


Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


I used to be Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain. I would explain to the inmates, who got all MACHO and say I can take whatever the Antichrist wants to dish out, including the beheading if I do not take the Mark. You say that, "BUT CAN YOU WATCH AS HE CHOPS OFF THE HEADS OF YOUR CHILDREN AND NOT TAKE THE MARK, TO SAVE THEM." That made them think a lot.

Through much tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God. Acts 14 - 22
tribulation is not God's wrath.

 

[lamad]

John is Called up to HEAVEN, either spiritually or in a vision at REV. 4:1, which is ALL FUTURE PROPHECY from that point ON.
I do not know Who taught you that wild theory, but it is the Wrong Interpertation. I can HIGHY recommend that 37 hours series by Dr. John MacArthur. YES, it is all part of the Great Tribulation which last 7 years, but it INTENSIFIES as it GOES ALONG. The RED HORSE is WAR, and can only be World War III, full scale nuclear war. Towards the end of Chapter 6, GOD WRATH intensifies to wear it becomes obvious. https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=66&chapter=0

Sorry about the typos, in the last post. I typed that LATE after midnight last night and was very tired.

No, sorry, but this is not true. A vision can be of any time: we must determine the time by what is seen in the vision. The truth is, God started this vision while Jesus was still on earth or under the earth, then took the reader through His resurection and then finally His ascension and sending down the Holy Spirit.

Who taught me? Jesus Christ, the head of the church. HE taught me. He spoke to me, asked me questions. I heard His voice and His words. Perhaps you would like to answer the questions He asked me?

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

After some weeks of frustration, Jesus came to assist again, and took me to Chapter 12. But that is another story.
So, since you know this is all "wild theory" and "Wrong Interpertation," answer His questions yourself.
We will all be awaiting your answers.

I will add one more thought: most people are thinking future in the first few seals, but God and the Holy Spirit were thinking early church. That is how far off most people are.

 

[lamad]

Through much tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God. Acts 14 - 22
tribulation is not God's wrath.

Evmur, if you wish to remain behind and "tribulate," I believe God would honor that. But WHY, when God has promised a way of escape?

 

[Evmur]

mat 25 tells us who are left behind.
Virgins
Believers
Carnal christians. Uncommited with no intimacy.

We's the Bride, we will not need to knock ....

 

[Evmur]

Evmur, if you wish to remain behind and "tribulate," I believe God would honor that. But WHY, when God has promised a way of escape?

Through much tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God. Acts 14 - 22

Tribulation comes from man, God's wrath comes from God.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, sorry, but this is not true. A vision can be of any time: we must determine the time by what is seen in the vision. The truth is, God started this vision while Jesus was still on earth or under the earth, then took the reader through His resurection and then finally His ascension and sending down the Holy Spirit.

Who taught me? Jesus Christ, the head of the church. HE taught me. He spoke to me, asked me questions. I heard His voice and His words. Perhaps you would like to answer the questions He asked me?

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

After some weeks of frustration, Jesus came to assist again, and took me to Chapter 12. But that is another story.
So, since you know this is all "wild theory" and "Wrong Interpertation," answer His questions yourself.
We will all be awaiting your answers.

I will add one more thought: most people are thinking future in the first few seals, but God and the Holy Spirit were thinking early church. That is how far off most people are.

Wow, your claim of God talking to you was like the Revelation, are you going to write a book on your Revelation from God?