50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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lamad

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We agree on that ...
You should not be so quick to agree! Did you not read? The AC does not even SHOW UP until the midpoint of the "trib." And the days of GT Jesus spoke of really don't start until late in chapter 14.

The truth is, the first half of the "trib" or 70th week is the first 6 trumpet judgments.

(I know, many people imagine the "trib" starts with the first seal. They are mistaken, pulling that seal out of its context.)

The 70th week really starts at the 7th trumpet and ends with the 7th vial.
 

Evmur

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You Agree With Absolutely That All The Church Is Killed, Because You Disregard Gods Words Below

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
The seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians is not the seal in the Revelation which is upon the Jews
 

lamad

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Wow, your claim of God talking to you was like the Revelation, are you going to write a book on your Revelation from God?
It is written, my sheep hear my voice..." It is not unusual. We ALL should hear Him.
 

Truth7t7

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Evmur, if you wish to remain behind and "tribulate," I believe God would honor that. But WHY, when God has promised a way of escape?
Your claim of a Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a man made false teaching found of John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofields 1909 reference bible known as Dispensationalism
 

lamad

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Left behind? that is Hal Lindsay muck. None of God's children will be left behind.

On what basis would God's blood bought people be left behind?

Hal Lindsay has made more money out of his left behind nonsense than the so - called "healers" have made.
No, not Hal, it came from PAUL. Who do you think will get the "sudden destruction?" It will be all those "left behind." That is very scriptural.

What basis? Suppose a child of God has NO FAITH In a pretrib rapture? They will not be expecting Him. Everything we get from heaven we get by and through faith. I suspect the rapture will be the same. When Jesus comes to the air, HE will certainly know who is expecting Him and who imagines He will not come until after the AC comes. How many times has God told us to WATCH?
 

lamad

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Really? Matt 25 doesn't even mention a rapture.

Are you aware of Acts 24:15? How many resurrections are mentioned? And who is the subject of each resurrection?

Now, with that information, how does the Bible describe tribulation martyrs who are resurrected? Hint: Rev 20:5.

Which of the 2 resurrections mentioned in Acts 24:15 occurs before the other one?

Can you connect these dots?
This is just human reasoning gone wrong. All the righteous will take part in the first resurrection, but in their order. Christ was first, then the church when He comes to the air, then the 144,000, then the OT saints along with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded.
 

lamad

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Rev 14 starts with firstfruit JEWS gathered and in HEAVEN.
Then angels preach the gospel to the entire earth. Heaven says BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DIE IN THE LORD FROM THIS DAY FORWARD.
then main JEWISH harvest by Jesus on a cloud ,with a sickle IMMEDIATELY before wrath.

You are looking at the last harvest. Jewish harvest.

Those commanded to refuse the mark are stragglers.

If you study harvest it is 4 parts.
Firstfruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

Rev 14 is a separate harvest. Jews.

Complete with firstfruit Jews as gathered first ( 144k)
Do you really believe Jesus will harvest with a sickle? This is symbolic and I also thing prophetic. The harvest does not take place in the timeframe of chapter 14, some unknown time after the midpoint of the week. This is prophecy looking ahead to chapter 15 when the beheaded begin to show up in heaven, and then to Armageddon when the wicked get "harvested."

I think you know this: the Jews, for the most part, won't trust in Jesus until the SEE HIM and see the holes in His hands and feet. That will not come until HE comes as in Rev. 19.

Heaven says BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DIE IN THE LORD FROM THIS DAY FORWARD.
That would be, from chapter 12, the remnant of those that love Jesus, first, and then any Jew who refuses the mark and loses his or her head. It is a warning that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are about to start.

IMMEDIATELY before wrath.
How in the world can you say that? What wrath? WHO'S wrath? God's wrath begins with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal, before any part of the 70th week. This theory that God's wrath comes after He comes or late in the week is bogus. We need to follow the script!
 

Truth7t7

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The seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians is not the seal in the Revelation which is upon the Jews
Your claim is false, God has one seal, and that is God the Holy Spirit

You now falsely teach Zionism's (Dual Covenant Theology) a seal for Jews, and a different seal for the Church

God has one plan for all mankind, the finished work upon Calvary

Belief, Repentance, Sealing, Salvation

The 144,000 Are Sealed, Saved, And Added To The Church On Earth

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 22:1-5KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
 
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This is just human reasoning gone wrong. All the righteous will take part in the first resurrection, but in their order. Christ was first, then the church when He comes to the air, then the 144,000, then the OT saints along with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded.
Nope. Scripture is clear about the "number" of resurrections. Acts 24:15 specifically says there will be A resurrection of the righteous (that would be "those who belong to Him") and A resurrection of the wicked (that would be unbelievers).

And Rev 20 clearly indicates which of these TWO resurrections occurs first. Believers. All of them at the same time.

1 Cor 15:23 makes that clear. Christ is the "firstfruits" and then "those who belong to Him". The wording is quite clear. All of those who belong to Him are in the same resurrection.

And Acts 24:15 confirms that all believers are in the FIRST resurrection. Those who want to split up and divide the FIRST resurrection into parts have no biblical support for such an idea.
 

Evmur

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Your claim is false, God has one seal, and that is God the Holy Spirit

You now falsely teach Zionism's (Dual Covenant Theology) a seal for Jews, and a different seal for the Church

God has one plan for all mankind, the finished work upon Calvary

Belief, Repentance, Sealing, Salvation

The 144,000 Are Sealed, Saved, And Added To The Church On Earth

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 22:1-5KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Just look at your inconsistency

The seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians is GUARANTEE of our salvation "unto redemption" that is redemption of our bodies, that is the rapture. The rapture is GUARANTEED to every believer.

Yet you say some will be left behind
 

lamad

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Nope. Scripture is clear about the "number" of resurrections. Acts 24:15 specifically says there will be A resurrection of the righteous (that would be "those who belong to Him") and A resurrection of the wicked (that would be unbelievers).

And Rev 20 clearly indicates which of these TWO resurrections occurs first. Believers. All of them at the same time.

1 Cor 15:23 makes that clear. Christ is the "firstfruits" and then "those who belong to Him". The wording is quite clear. All of those who belong to Him are in the same resurrection.

And Acts 24:15 confirms that all believers are in the FIRST resurrection. Those who want to split up and divide the FIRST resurrection into parts have no biblical support for such an idea.
As I said, all this is human reasoning not understanding the scriptures. Did Jesus resurrect from the dead? Yes, we all know He did. Therefore HIS resurrection must fit in ONE or the OTHER shown in Rev. 20. I will let you choose which one.
 

Truth7t7

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Just look at your inconsistency

The seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians is GUARANTEE of our salvation "unto redemption" that is redemption of our bodies, that is the rapture. The rapture is GUARANTEED to every believer.

Yet you say some will be left behind
Your claim is false, God the Holy Spirit seals all believers

As stated, the 144,000 are sealed and "Added to the Church" on earth during the tribulation, and will be resurrected and caught up with the Church at the second coming (immediately after the tribulation)

You espouse Zionism's (Dual Covenant Theology) a seal for Jews, and a different seal for the Church

You falsely teach of Jews ruling in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place, (Zionism) in (Dual Covenant Theology) a fact
 

Evmur

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No, not Hal, it came from PAUL. Who do you think will get the "sudden destruction?" It will be all those "left behind." That is very scriptural.

What basis? Suppose a child of God has NO FAITH In a pretrib rapture? They will not be expecting Him. Everything we get from heaven we get by and through faith. I suspect the rapture will be the same. When Jesus comes to the air, HE will certainly know who is expecting Him and who imagines He will not come until after the AC comes. How many times has God told us to WATCH?
Here is your fallacy

"the dead in Christ will rise first ... " how are they watching and waiting?
 

Evmur

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Your claim is false, God the Holy Spirit seals all believers

As stated, the 144,000 are sealed and "Added to the Church" on earth during the tribulation, and will be resurrected and caught up with the Church at the second coming (immediately after the tribulation)

You espouse Zionism's (Dual Covenant Theology) a seal for Jews, and a different seal for the Church

You falsely teach of Jews ruling in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place, (Zionism) in (Dual Covenant Theology) a fact
The prophets say they will
 

Truth7t7

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The prophets say they will
You espouse Zionism's (Dual Covenant Theology) a false teaching

There is one covenant between God and Man, the finished work on Calvary, period
 

Truth7t7

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They will be converted
The Remnant, chosen elect Jew will repent, be sealed by God the Holy Spirit, and added to the Church, just as all believers have

Your teaching a seal for the Church, and a different seal for the Jew is a false Zionist teaching, (Dual Covenant Theology)