The Trinity Doctrine in the Bible

[BamaPapist]

He didn't create it at all -- Constantine did...

The thing is unlike your church, the Catholic Church has apostolic succession and can trace the leaders of their Church in an unbroken line of succession back to St Peter. Constantine made Christianity legal, Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

 

[BamaPapist]

But scripture doesn't say they do that. It says an angel offers up the prayers to God.

No it does not, the elders brought those prayers to God, all the angel does is cause the incense to rise through his hand. The prayers of the saints came from the elders.

 

[GaryA]

Brother, you need to read a few verses before the verse that says Christ is the one mediator. 1 Tim Ch 2:1

In that verse Paul tells us this:
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men”.

That makes us mediators.

No, it does not.

You are missing the obvious.

1 Timothy 2:5 very clearly and plainly establishes the fact that Christ is the only mediator 'between God and men'.

(Remember that phrase in single-quotes - it is a hint.)

Sooooo - if we believe by/in faith that the Word of God is not in error -- verse 1 cannot possibly be saying anything against it.

Verse 1 is not saying what you think it is.

I would like to suggest that you study it "a bit deeper" so that you may understand better what the passage is actually saying.

I literally showed you in the Bible where souls in heaven are offering the prayers of people on Earth to God.

What post was that?

 

[Truth7t7]

Can anybody help make The Doctrine of The Trinity clear to those who are new to the Faith using scripture alone?

There are only 2 known verses in all of scripture that even hint at the concept of a '3-person God' who is actually 'One'.

Matthew 28:19 lists the 3 persons of the Trinity, but does not describe their relationship in any way or teach the "concept" of the Trinity at all.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
(Mt. 28:19)
It is very significant to note that after this verse, the only baptisms that are related in detail describe baptizing in the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ. These are found in Acts 2:38 & 8:12

The other verse that comes close to describing the Trinity is Ephesians 4:4-6.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
(Eph. 4:4-6)
This verse, as well, fails to teach the actual "concept" of the Trinity.

There are many pagan religions with 3-person gods which go into great detail about the 3-person relationship of their gods and the history of how they came about, but in Christianity, there is no teaching anywhere in scripture about the Trinity. The word Trinity is found nowhere from Genesis to Revelation.

There is not a single book in the 66 books of the Bible, much less even a paragraph, that teaches the actual concept of the Trinity.

So how do we teach this concept to a new inquisitive Christian who is interested in learning about it in their Bible?

If you can teach this concept using the Bible alone, please supply those books, chapters and verses for the edification of those who are eager to learn.

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe using the concept of the rapture reference is effective;
The Bible does not contain that reference either. One paragraph heading....which was added by man. However, reference to the three is repeated in scriptures and man captured it as the Trinity.

The word used in the KJV to represent the three person of God as one is (Godhead)

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Roman's 1:20KJV
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Runningman]

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

This is the best verse to prove that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one.

 

[GaryA]

You showed your interpretation of Revelation 5:8. Unfortunately, your interpretation is wrong, because you wrongly conclude that the saints (who offered the prayers mentioned) are already in heaven. The text doesn't say that at all.

Nor does the text say that the elders were praying for the saints.

Nor were they performing any kind of mediation for the saints - whose prayers are "directed directly" to God.

 

[GaryA]

Lol no. The elders are offering prayers of the saints. You can try to twist it but that’s the clear text in verse 8 Ch 5.

clear-as-mud

 

[BamaPapist]

No, it does not.

You are missing the obvious.

1 Timothy 2:5 very clearly and plainly establishes the fact that Christ is the only mediator 'between God and men'.

(Remember that phrase in single-quotes - it is a hint.)

Sooooo - if we believe by/in faith that the Word of God is not in error -- verse 1 cannot possibly be saying anything against it.

Verse 1 is not saying what you think it is.

I would like to suggest that you study it "a bit deeper" so that you may understand better what the passage is actually saying.


What post was that?

If you ask me to pray for you, i would be asking for something on your behalf to God. That makes me a mediator. Paul says that is pleasing to God in verse 3. That does not mean Christ is not the one mediator between us and the father. He most definitely is.

Rev Ch 5:8 is the answer to your last question. The elders in heaven are bowing down to God on his throne in Heaven and they have with them the prayers of the saints.

 

[ewq1938]

No it does not, the elders brought those prayers to God, all the angel does is cause the incense to rise through his hand. The prayers of the saints came from the elders.

That's not what the passage says:

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The angel offered the prayers not the elders. Stop believing in things people told you are true and go to the bible and see if it is true or not. Rejecting Sola Scriptura has made ppl lazy and biblically ignorant.

 

[BamaPapist]

clear-as-mud

That’s what Sola Scriptura gets you. It’s every man for himself to figure out what the Bible means with that method.

 

[BamaPapist]

That's not what the passage says:

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The angel offered the prayers not the elders. Stop believing in things people told you are true and go to the bible and see if it is true or not. Rejecting Sola Scriptura has made ppl lazy and biblically ignorant.

Where did the angel get the prayers? The elders. The Elders brought the prayers before God, the fact that the angel had a ceremonial role in making the incense rise (8:4) doesn’t mean anything.

 

[ewq1938]

Where did the angel get the prayers? The elders.

Yes, but you claim the elders offered up the prayers to God but the bible says the angel did that.

The Elders brought the prayers before God, the fact that the angel had a ceremonial role in making the incense rise (8:4) doesn’t mean anything.

And all of that is biblically false. You are defending a false doctrine and narrative that contradicts the bible.

 

[BamaPapist]

Yes, but you claim the elders offered up the prayers to God but the bible says the angel did that.




And all of that is biblically false. You are defending a false doctrine and narrative that contradicts the bible.

The angel aspect of this is irrelevant. You just keep going back to it because you don’t have an explanation for why the elders (Christians in heaven) are in possession of prayers of saints on Earth. The angel doesn’t have prayers to offer God if the Elders don’t come forward to give the prayers to God.

As for biblically false, what in the world are you talking about? The ceremonial role of the angel?

 

[GaryA]

So let me get this straight...
You believe that Protestantism is the authentic Christian faith of the Early Church (that was present during at least the 2nd century)...but you cannot name one Christian during that time that wrote about these beliefs Protestants have today and held those beliefs themselves?

Do you not see how crazy that is?

Nope.

Protestantism came about after Catholicism; however, long before Catholicism existed as a whim in the mind of Constantine, the true churches were "the real deal"...

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Boo...g/Printed Books/trail_of_blood_jm_carroll.htm

 

[BamaPapist]

Nope.

Protestantism came about after Catholicism; however, long before Catholicism existed as a whim in the mind of Constantine, the true churches were "the real deal"...

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books, Tracts & Preaching/Printed Books/trail_of_blood_jm_carroll.htm

So if Constantine created the Catholic Church in the 4th Century, I should not be able to find any Christians that claim to be part of the Catholic Church before then right? Because he created it according to you.

Also, I should not find Christians before then that hold beliefs that are distinctly Catholic by today’s standard either right?

 

[ewq1938]

The angel aspect of this is irrelevant.

No, it isn't. Here's the issue:

You: claim the elders offer up the prayers to God.
Bible: says an angel offers up the prayers to God.

I am clearly going to side with what the bible says over your non-biblical, fictional claim.

 

[GaryA]

If you ask me to pray for you, i would be asking for something on your behalf to God. That makes me a mediator.

No, it does not.

Mediation is a two-way street.

That does not mean Christ is not the one mediator between us and the father. He most definitely is.

Do you not understand the conflict between this statement and what you wrote above?

 

[BamaPapist]

No, it isn't. Here's the issue:

You: claim the elders offer up the prayers to God.
Bible: says an angel offers up the prayers to God.

I am clearly going to side with what the bible says over your non-biblical, fictional claim.

If I put alms (money) in the offering plate at church and the usher takes the plate up to pastor, I’m still the one who offered the money to the church, not the usher.

That is all the angel was, an usher. That’s why it’s irrelevant, if you can’t see that then I don’t know what else to say to you.

 

[GaryA]

That’s what Sola Scriptura gets you. It’s every man for himself to figure out what the Bible means with that method.

And, somehow you think that a man (pope, priest, etc.) is going to help you understand scripture better than the Holy Spirit of God???