Do agnostics go to hell?

[Wansvic]

scripture alone is open to various interpretations, stamp your colours to the mast and say what ultimately you will say when you stand before Him

According to the word, all will be judged by God's word not one's personal interpretation. (John 12:48, 2 Peter 1:20-21) God's truth does not change. All of mankind is responsible to "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..." (Matt. 6:33) It is impossible to see/understand/comprehend the truth without first being obedient to His requirements to obtain the spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38)

Notice:
John 3:3 states unless a man is born again he cannot SEE the kingdom.
John 3:5 Unless is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom.

 

[Wansvic]

But they don't enter in as prostitutes or those who swindle others. Their hearts are changed through faith in Jesus.

Again by faith in God's promises (as Rahab did).

Just wanted to make an additional point regarding both cases you mention. In each case the person(s) faith was accompanied with obedience to the command given by the man/men of God.

1. Jesus statement that the harlots and publicans would enter was connected to their faith and obedience to water baptism contained in the message. Matt. 21:25-32

2. Rahab's story is the same. She believed the men of God and obeyed their command to place the scarlet cord in her window. (Joshua 2:18)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Ok. I'm all ears, let's discuss this. Present your case using Scripture.

Super busy. Here are the passages and notes that I've put together over the years. I may be wrong in what Purgatory is . . . I'm not a scholar, but more of a Biblical reporter. Here they are:

The first is from the Book of Jubilees. If you don't accept that literature, I get it. No need to argue your point.

Jubil 05:14 - Purgatory - "And there is nothing in heaven or on earth, or in light or in darkness, or in Sheol or in the depth, or in the place of darkness (which is not judged); and all their judgments are ordained and written and engraved."

1 Sam 28:16-19 - Samuel - NLT - "But Samuel replied, "Why ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy? The LORD has done just as he said he would. He has torn the kingdom from you and given it to your rival, David. The LORD has done this to you today because you refused to carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites. What's more, the LORD will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The LORD will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat." - Raised as a spirit, Samuel informs Saul that he and his sons will die the following day and would join him, Samuel, "below" to wait for the Judgment of Christ. - This certainly seems to indicate Purgatory, and it is. People must wait somewhere for Christ to arrive. We realized that it was Hades, the place where Jesus taught for three days, but felt that after placing their faith in Christ, they would then pass on to Heaven. But, 1 Thess 04:13-18 clearly indicate that even post the resurrection of Christ, all must wait until the return of Christ to be gathered up with Him.

Dan 12:02 - Purgatory - NKJV - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." - This passage seems to clearly indicate Purgatory, as the text says, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - But, we must remember that this prophecy is no longer about the distant future, but the near future.

1 Thess 04:13-18 - Purgatory - KJV - "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." - Well here it is. The doctrine is pretty difficult to deny, which is that the dead will not immediately cross over from death to life. No, the dead must wait for the return of Christ and they will first be caught up with the Lord, and then the living will be caught up with them.

As I said, I am not a scholar . . . just a reporter of what I read. Kick the ball . . . not the player.

 

[crossnote]

The first is from the Book of Jubilees. If you don't accept that literature, I get it. No need to argue your point.

Jubil 05:14 - Purgatory - "And there is nothing in heaven or on earth, or in light or in darkness, or in Sheol or in the depth, or in the place of darkness (which is not judged); and all their judgments are ordained and written and engraved."

Ok, not the Bible, nor did Jesus or the Apostles use Jubilee. Did your upbringing use it? Besides I see nothing in what you quoted to support your case.

Dan 12:02 - Purgatory - NKJV - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." - This passage seems to clearly indicate Purgatory, as the text says, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - But, we must remember that this prophecy is no longer about the distant future, but the near future.

This is similar to...

John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It shows the truth of 5 verses before...

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Thess 04:13-18 - Purgatory - KJV - "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." - Well here it is. The doctrine is pretty difficult to deny, which is that the dead will not immediately cross over from death to life. No, the dead must wait for the return of Christ and they will first be caught up with the Lord, and then the living will be caught up with them.

Purgatory? Nope, that is speaking of the rapture. Those who died in Christ (asleep) will not 'precede' those who are still alive. You are mixing two separate events...the rapture and Judgment. No purgatory there.

 

[crossnote]

Just wanted to make an additional point regarding both cases you mention. In each case the person(s) faith was accompanied with obedience to the command given by the man/men of God.

1. Jesus statement that the harlots and publicans would enter was connected to their faith and obedience to water baptism contained in the message. Matt. 21:25-32

2. Rahab's story is the same. She believed the men of God and obeyed their command to place the scarlet cord in her window. (Joshua 2:18)

Obedience accompanies true faith, and in a sense is inseparable from faith. But God justifies us by faith ALONE, even apart from water baptism.

Romans 3:28 (KJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:18-19 (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Salvation still is a free gift. No?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Ok, not the Bible, nor did Jesus or the Apostles use Jubilee. Did your upbringing use it? Besides I see nothing in what you quoted to support your case.

This is similar to...

John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It shows the truth of 5 verses before...

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



Purgatory? Nope, that is speaking of the rapture. Those who died in Christ (asleep) will not 'precede' those who are still alive. You are mixing two separate events...the rapture and Judgment. No purgatory there.

Okie Doke.

 

[Wansvic]

Obedience accompanies true faith, and in a sense is inseparable from faith. But God justifies us by faith ALONE, even apart from water baptism.

Romans 3:28 (KJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:18-19 (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Salvation still is a free gift. No?

Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is not an OT law. It is commandment for all as recorded throughout the NT. Jesus said it would BEGIN in Jerusalem, (Luke 24:47) and it did on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) If this were not so Paul would not have commanded it of the Ephesus disciples 20 years after the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 19:1-6)

 

[Rosemaryx]

Jesus spoke about hell 70 times , a place of weeping & gnashing of teeth and more...
He never spoke once about second chances after death , and the bible tells us Today is the day of Salvation...

If we die without Christ , there is no turning back...
...xox...

 

[crossnote]

Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is not an OT law. It is commandment for all as recorded throughout the NT. Jesus said it would BEGIN in Jerusalem, (Luke 24:47) and it did on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) If this were not so Paul would not have commanded it of the Ephesus disciples 20 years after the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 19:1-6)

I won't argue this point as it isn't the topic matter of this thread. I'll only point out the idea that if baptism is equivalent to faith, why did Paul state?...

1 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I won't argue this point as it isn't the topic matter of this thread. I'll only point out the idea that if baptism is equivalent to faith, why did Paul state?...

1 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

If water actually saved a person, then this remark by Paul would be fairly close to Blasphemy. Well . . . I wouldn't say this if physical water had a role in Salvation. Never. If water saves, then water ought to be spoken of with high Reverence.

 

[Wansvic]

I won't argue this point as it isn't the topic matter of this thread. I'll only point out the idea that if baptism is equivalent to faith, why did Paul state?...

1 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

It was not my intention to steer the thread in a different direction. You questioned me. I provided you with an answer. And do so with the following answer as well.

Paul's comment indicates he did indeed baptize in connection with the gospel message. His negative comment was directed exclusively to the group because they were placing importance on the person that assisted in their water baptism. Sadly missing the point of their being buried into Christ's death through baptism in His name.

A response is not necessary, however, feel free to start another thread if you would like to discuss it further.

 

[crossnote]

It was not my intention to steer the thread in a different direction. You questioned me. I provided you with an answer. And do so with the following answer as well.

Yes, but you first brought up water baptism (post #122)...a different topic.

Paul's comment indicates he did indeed baptize in connection with the gospel message. His negative comment was directed exclusively to the group because they were placing importance on the person that assisted in their water baptism. Sadly missing the point of their being buried into Christ's death through baptism in His name.

nevertheless, Paul, by his comment, highly devalued it's necessity.

A response is not necessary, however, feel free to start another thread if you would like to discuss it further.

It's not my area of interest, seeing it has nothing to do with our justification or the new birth.
Starting a separate thread would be of great help for this thread and should strike up the age old debate of the necessity of baptism and good works for salvation. I might pay it a visit, but no guarantee.

 

[Jocund]

Jesus spoke about hell 70 times , a place of weeping & gnashing of teeth and more...
He never spoke once about second chances after death , and the bible tells us Today is the day of Salvation...

If we die without Christ , there is no turning back...
...xox...

Show me the passage that says judgement happens before the day of judgement.

 

[Jocund]

Ok. I'm all ears, let's discuss this. Present your case using Scripture.

I think Lafftur had a great take on the topic. First there is death, and in some cases hell (Hebrews 9:27), but Revelation 20:11-15 discusses that all will be called out of hell for judgement. There are no passages that say that someone's fate is sealed at death, that is a Roman Catholic doctrine sometimes mistakenly assumed to be directly from scripture. That "limbo" of being in hell before the judgement (before hell too is cast into the lake of fire) could be thought of as Purgatory. Martin Luther was an example of someone that didn't believe in Purgatory. Maybe there is a missing piece of the puzzle that would bring clarity to this.

 

[crossnote]

I think Lafftur had a great take on the topic. First there is death, and in some cases hell (Hebrews 9:27), but Revelation 20:11-15 discusses that all will be called out of hell for judgement. There are no passages that say that someone's fate is sealed at death, that is a Roman Catholic doctrine sometimes mistakenly assumed to be directly from scripture. That "limbo" of being in hell before the judgement (before hell too is cast into the lake of fire) could be thought of as Purgatory. Martin Luther was an example of someone that didn't believe in Purgatory. Maybe there is a missing piece of the puzzle that would bring clarity to this.

Actually Hebrews 9:27 speaks of Judgment, not hell. Rev 20:11-15, especially v13 declares that they were judged by their works. Since, according to Romans 3, all are guilty if judged by their works and so that's why you see no one passing as not guilty in the White Throne Judgment.
These that were in hell were given a '2nd chance' that no man could pass.

...and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” (Rev 5:4-5)

 

[Lafftur]

These scriptures point out the destination one can expect relevant to their actions during their lifetime 1. those who do His commandments are given entrance into heaven. 2. those who opposed His commandments are barred from heaven.

Expecting to receive a second chance after death is a deception of the enemy. It is a ploy to take as many with him into the lake of fire for eternity. And sadly people don't see that.

No, in Revelation 22:14-15 it is NOT speaking of entrance into Heaven it is speaking of entrance into the Heavenly Holy City of the New Jerusalem.

The saved soul enters Heaven but, the saved soul must be restored to enter the Heavenly Holy City of the New Jerusalem.

Our soul is our mind, will and emotions which all 3 need to line up with God’s Mind, Will and Emotions. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in every saved Believer....to restore our souls.

Jesus Christ saves our soul and the Holy Spirit restores our soul.

Cooperate with the Holy Spirit by letting Him teach us the Word of God renewing our minds so we can rightly judge and know God’s perfect Will which will align our emotions with God’s Emotions....the restoring of our souls!

 

[Lafftur]

Lafftur, there are many spirits in this world saying many things. How will I know it’s the Holy Spirit if its not in accord with His Word. We aren’t Mormons looking for a burning in our bosom.
Please show me in Scripture where you find these claims of yours.

No worries, it’s not necessary for you to understand or agree with ANYTHING I am saying. Scripture is too easily twisted and misconstrued with human reasoning.

Just keep reading God’s Word and the Holy Spirit will reveal all things to you- line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

Our souls are saved but, I’m really looking forward to the complete and total restoring of my soul!!!

 

[true_believer]

What about all of the Old Testament prophets that did not know Christ?
Where are they?

 

[Lafftur]

Jesus spoke about hell 70 times , a place of weeping & gnashing of teeth and more...
He never spoke once about second chances after death , and the bible tells us Today is the day of Salvation...

If we die without Christ , there is no turning back...
...xox...

Hello sweet Rosemaryx,

Look at Rev. 20:10-15...

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then

Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10-15&version=NKJV

Notice the false prophet and beast(antichrist) were NEVER thrown into Hell - they went straight into the Lake of Fire alive.

Next, notice after 1,000 years Satan gets thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Then, notice there’s a great white throne judgment and all the dead appear from the sea, death and hell to stand before God to be judge if they are to be given Life or the Lake of Fire.

The Book of Life is searched for their names.....

If God has already judged and condemned them when He put them in Hell, why is He judging them again?

...and IF Hell was FINAL Judgment, why not just go ahead and throw them in the Lake of Fire like He did the false prophet and beast (antichrist)?

....and WHY give Jesus Christ (the ONLY Savior) the keys to Death and Hell?

Oh, the depths and heights of God’s LOVE!

ONLY the Lake of Fire is FINAL JUDGMENT.

 

[Lafftur]

If water actually saved a person, then this remark by Paul would be fairly close to Blasphemy. Well . . . I wouldn't say this if physical water had a role in Salvation. Never. If water saves, then water ought to be spoken of with high Reverence.

Water baptism is the sign of covenant just like circumcision. Neither saves but VERY important as a sign of covenant with God.