TONGUES TODAY

[Absolutely]

it is not tongues or no tongues or minimizing the supernatural or reframing the dynamics.
The NT was written by Holy Spirit baptized men to other Holy Spirit baptised men.
In acts the baptism in the Holy Spirit came first. Tongues followed.

Without the prerequisite there is no understanding.
Tongues becomes theory and logic ...WHICH REQUIRES the NECESSARY reframing as NEEDED.

 

[Major]

it is not tongues or no tongues or minimizing the supernatural or reframing the dynamics.
The NT was written by Holy Spirit baptized men to other Holy Spirit baptised men.
In acts the baptism in the Holy Spirit came first. Tongues followed.

Without the prerequisite there is no understanding.
Tongues becomes theory and logic ...WHICH REQUIRES the NECESSARY reframing as NEEDED.

In the book of Acts 2.......Peter, AN APOSTLE was the one speaking.

Then those who were there heard him.

Far be it from me to tell you or anyone what the Bible actually says. EVERYONE will belive what they have already decided it is that they choose to belive.

However, allow me to post the LITERAL words of the Scriptures for all to read and consider this tongues phenomenon.

Acts 2:2-4......
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Notice please that There were twelve Apostles there and they spake other tongues that were different than their own native tongue.

Verse #5...."And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

Verse #6....."Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man HEARD them speak in his own LANGUAGE."

The BIBLE Confirmation is that tongues are LANGUAGES.

Now the question is and has been from the start of this thread...
IS WHAT YOU SEE AND DO AS DONE IN CHURHES TODAY UNDER THE NAME OF "SPEAKING TONGUES" KNOWN LANGUAGES?????

Verse #7......"And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?"

Galileans = APOSTLES! THE TWELVE.

Verse #8........"And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Some of the different languages they spoke were:

Acts 2:9-11.......
[9]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, [10]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[11]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of Alahayim.

The Apostles received the Holy Spirit and she gave them utterance to speak in other tongues. The scriptures showed the Apostles spake languages that the people of other tongues could understand because it was the people's own language respectively that they could hear. That is why they said "how hear we every man in our own tongue wherein we were born?"(Acts 2:8)

The scripture didn't say the Spirit was on the people to hear the Apostles speak, rather the Spirit was on the Apostles to give them utterance of other tongues, so the people truly understood because it was their respective languages they were hearing from their respective areas wherein they were born being spoken by the Apostles from what the scriptures show .
Acts 2:8 [8]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

THAT is what the Scriptures actually say but of course you are free to believe what you have been taught!

 

[randyk]

I don't believe in degrees of spirituality. We are all equal in Christ. No one is more spiritual than another, or in any way superior.

For me, tongues is just a spiritual tool, in the same way as a jigsaw is a workshop tool. Owning a jigsaw doesn't make me superior as a wood worker than any other home wood worker. It just makes some jobs easier than using a handsaw.

The concept of spirituality is more a New Age concept than a Christian one. It comes out of monastic mysticism that developed in the Middle Ages, where separation of the world, poverty, and self-imposed suffering makes one closer to God. Some Charismatics have viewed the prophetic as having different levels of spirituality where one could graduate to being a "seer" where they could "see" things in the Spirit which ordinary believers couldn't. I don't believe in any of it, because it departs from walking by faith and enters into a mystical area of walking through "inner sight", which is basically New Age spirituality. In the past there was a craze among some Christians for the "deeper life" where they could rise to a deeper spiritual relationship with God that the ordinary rank and file believer didn't have. This type of thinking is also New Age mysticism and edges toward paganism where adherents go into a trance and move closer to their guiding spirit.

To deal with your comment, "Do all speak in tongues?", most cessationist use that statement to actually say, "No one speaks in tongues these days", but they are not prepared to be honest enough to come right out and say it.

My answer to "Do all speak in tongues?" is "I don't know about others, but I pray in tongues and love every minute of it!"

Your answer seems to be an intentional deflection--you'd rather focus on what you do have than on the question of whether all "can have it,," or "do have it?" Otherwise, some really good stuff there. I agree on the "equality" thing, as well as on the history of Mysticism.

Nevertheless, I do believe in degrees of spirituality in the sense that although all are equally loved by God, some simply choose to not cooperate with God in all they are called to do. There will be some limited "shame" at Christ's return, suffered by genuine Christians.

We are not competing to be closer to God, or to be greater than one another. We are all equally desired by God, who created all to be needed in a single collective. The body equally needs the little toe as the ear! But the little toe does not compete with the ear to be an ear!

I won't equivocate, however, about the cessationist question. The gifts have not ceased, but we aren't all given the same or all gifts. When Paul asks, rhetorically, if all speak in tongues, he is suggesting, "of course we don't all speak in tongues, because the Spirit decides who has what gifts." Paul then argues that when we're given more than one gift, we should focus more on trying to edify others than just on ourselves.

Tongues is self-edifying, and is very important to those who have it. Unless you're well-edified yourself, how can you minister, spiritually, to others?

But tongues is only one way of self-edification. Prayer, praise, and Bible Study also accomplish the same. Not all are vested students of the Bible, or teachers. And so, God distributes gifts based on what He wants out of a person--not necessarily what we want.

Thanks!

 

[CS1]

I am not angry at all.

I am not heart broken.

I am not playing a game.

My feelings are not hurt.

What I am disappointed in is that people like YOU use such inflammatory words when HIDING behind a computer screen.
Your brash, rude, unchristian behavior is on display and I guarantee you that YOU would not have the abilry neither the courage to face these things to anyone FACE TO FACE!

Anonymity certainly does give some people courage.

PLEASE place me on IGNORE just as I have done for YOU as of this minute.

anytime you in CA look me up I will be happy to tell you this in person

 

[PaulChristensen]

Your answer seems to be an intentional deflection--you'd rather focus on what you do have than on the question of whether all "can have it,," or "do have it?" Otherwise, some really good stuff there. I agree on the "equality" thing, as well as on the history of Mysticism.

Nevertheless, I do believe in degrees of spirituality in the sense that although all are equally loved by God, some simply choose to not cooperate with God in all they are called to do. There will be some limited "shame" at Christ's return, suffered by genuine Christians.

We are not competing to be closer to God, or to be greater than one another. We are all equally desired by God, who created all to be needed in a single collective. The body equally needs the little toe as the ear! But the little toe does not compete with the ear to be an ear!

I won't equivocate, however, about the cessationist question. The gifts have not ceased, but we aren't all given the same or all gifts. When Paul asks, rhetorically, if all speak in tongues, he is suggesting, "of course we don't all speak in tongues, because the Spirit decides who has what gifts." Paul then argues that when we're given more than one gift, we should focus more on trying to edify others than just on ourselves.

Tongues is self-edifying, and is very important to those who have it. Unless you're well-edified yourself, how can you minister, spiritually, to others?

But tongues is only one way of self-edification. Prayer, praise, and Bible Study also accomplish the same. Not all are vested students of the Bible, or teachers. And so, God distributes gifts based on what He wants out of a person--not necessarily what we want.

Thanks!

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

 

[randyk]

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

Man, I enjoyed that! You have the gift of "describing things! " Yes, you've set me straight on the "superiority" thing. Anyway, I had started to think you weren't suggesting that anyway--just needed to be sure. Sounds like you're very well-rounded. I'm surprised that a Presbyterian Church is so charismatic, though??

 

[PaulChristensen]

Man, I enjoyed that! You have the gift of "describing things! " Yes, you've set me straight on the "superiority" thing. Anyway, I had started to think you weren't suggesting that anyway--just needed to be sure. Sounds like you're very well-rounded. I'm surprised that a Presbyterian Church is so charismatic, though??

While there are Charismatic Presbyterians (In New Zealand anyway), the one I went to in Auckland didn't want to be Charismatic, although there were some Charismatics in the membership. My church was half way between two suburbs, Papakura and Manurewa. The Papakura church was Charismatic, and the Manurewa church was Calvinist. The elders of my church wanted to be middle of the road between the two. There were members who clearly testified of their own healing by the power of God. And there were other members who said quite clearly that they didn't want the church to become a Pentecostal one. But we all had fellowship with each other as Christian believers, and lost sight of the mixture of Baptists, Anglicans, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some Presbyterians we had in our fellowship. In fact, I had to be careful about what I preached, because I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want to alienate anyone, so when I preached, I was a "one message man" - Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead.

When we lost our minister through lack of finances and became an elder-run church, I had the job of arranging visiting preachers. Instead of using the list of elderly dried up retired Presbyterian ministers, I arranged for my Charismatic mates to come and preach to us. One Sunday morning one gave prophecies to every member present and they were remarkably accurate, seeing that the preacher was a total stranger to the congregation; and no one complained at all. They just drank it all in!

I think that the people in the church felt that the gifts of the Spirit were an unknown quantity for them, and they did not want to go overboard in things they didn't know about. Presbyterians can be very cautious that way. Yet, my friend who runs a prophetic ministry and itinerates around different churches tells me that the most powerful prophecies came from Charismatic Presbyterian elders!

When there were people in the church with medical conditions, when I offered prayer for them, none of them refused. I told them that they didn't need faith, because I had enough faith for both of us, and I just took their wrist and said, "Jesus heals you". They might have resisted if I had got them up to the front of the church and started publicly laying hands on their heads and prayed dramatic Pentecostal prayers over them. When I pray for a sick person, I am so discrete that even someone sitting nearby would think I was just having a normal talk with them. That way, people are not embarrassed by theatrical displays and their privacy is preserved.

So those people didn't care that I prayed in tongues (not in front of them of course), gave prophecies ("If Jesus was here He might have said this to you"), and prayed for sick people. They saw me as just another brother in Christ, who was prepared to do the work of church treasurer, be an elder, and lead from behind so as to encourage others to take more prominent roles in the church. Therefore they view me as a person first, and not just as a Charismatic. Isn't that the way we should view all our brothers and sisters in Christ?

It means that I can join any non-Charismatic church and be fully accepted if I present myself as a genuine, Christ-centred believer and brother in Christ, without trying to push my idealized theology on to them. It's a matter of respecting who they are in themselves and working with them as the Spirit leads.

 

[randyk]

While there are Charismatic Presbyterians (In New Zealand anyway), the one I went to in Auckland didn't want to be Charismatic, although there were some Charismatics in the membership. My church was half way between two suburbs, Papakura and Manurewa. The Papakura church was Charismatic, and the Manurewa church was Calvinist. The elders of my church wanted to be middle of the road between the two. There were members who clearly testified of their own healing by the power of God. And there were other members who said quite clearly that they didn't want the church to become a Pentecostal one. But we all had fellowship with each other as Christian believers, and lost sight of the mixture of Baptists, Anglicans, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some Presbyterians we had in our fellowship. In fact, I had to be careful about what I preached, because I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want to alienate anyone, so when I preached, I was a "one message man" - Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead.

When we lost our minister through lack of finances and became an elder-run church, I had the job of arranging visiting preachers. Instead of using the list of elderly dried up retired Presbyterian ministers, I arranged for my Charismatic mates to come and preach to us. One Sunday morning one gave prophecies to every member present and they were remarkably accurate, seeing that the preacher was a total stranger to the congregation; and no one complained at all. They just drank it all in!

I think that the people in the church felt that the gifts of the Spirit were an unknown quantity for them, and they did not want to go overboard in things they didn't know about. Presbyterians can be very cautious that way. Yet, my friend who runs a prophetic ministry and itinerates around different churches tells me that the most powerful prophecies came from Charismatic Presbyterian elders!

When there were people in the church with medical conditions, when I offered prayer for them, none of them refused. I told them that they didn't need faith, because I had enough faith for both of us, and I just took their wrist and said, "Jesus heals you". They might have resisted if I had got them up to the front of the church and started publicly laying hands on their heads and prayed dramatic Pentecostal prayers over them. When I pray for a sick person, I am so discrete that even someone sitting nearby would think I was just having a normal talk with them. That way, people are not embarrassed by theatrical displays and their privacy is preserved.

So those people didn't care that I prayed in tongues (not in front of them of course), gave prophecies ("If Jesus was here He might have said this to you"), and prayed for sick people. They saw me as just another brother in Christ, who was prepared to do the work of church treasurer, be an elder, and lead from behind so as to encourage others to take more prominent roles in the church. Therefore they view me as a person first, and not just as a Charismatic. Isn't that the way we should view all our brothers and sisters in Christ?

It means that I can join any non-Charismatic church and be fully accepted if I present myself as a genuine, Christ-centred believer and brother in Christ, without trying to push my idealized theology on to them. It's a matter of respecting who they are in themselves and working with them as the Spirit leads.

I have a lot to say about that, but lack time. I've seen 3 very strange movies in the last 3 days, and the craziest one was less than 15 minutes ago. Your post beat them all, but makes sense. You seem to be in a place where there is still Christian outreach in that way. God bless, and praise God.

But I would warn you that it doesn't always work out that way. Our last pastor, who quit due to a return to drinking, gave up because he couldn't bring back his old experiences, pretty much as you described it. He desperately tried to regain some previous time in his life, when his ministry was on fire.

Be ready in season and out of season. But in the meantime, enjoy it!

 

[Absolutely]

The church began white hot in the upper room.
That is the correct temperature.
Jesus walked as a man. Intentionally set up the believers walk so as to be the example of the spirit walk. Then raised the bar through the Holy Spirit.
Paul said I speak in tongues more than you all.
The one that spoke in tongues continually wrote over a third of the NT.
John while " in the spirit" not only wrote revelation but was taken up into heaven and experienced what he wrote.
Paul was also taken up into heaven.
I have also experienced visions and gone to heaven more than once.
Tongues is only one dimension or component.

Like i said before. The Nt was written by Holy Spirit baptised men, to other Holy Spirit baptised men

I experienced what they did in the upper room during the Charismatic renewal in 1977.
What a glorious ride!

This time frame we are in is dry.

We are way overdue for revival.

Hunger , repentance, and Gods pattern will bring it back.

When the pattern is right the glory falls.

Revival splits every church. A third to a half will leave. Then it explodes as the hungry ones find out where the glory is manifesting.
That church will be packed and overflowing.

THANK YOU JESUS !!!!!!!

 

[Absolutely]

In acts they recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

Same pattern today.

I sought it for months. It was the illusive and wonderful component i witnessed in several churches.
Indescribable.

Then one sunday the Lord spoke to me "today you will recieve the baptism in the Holy Spirit."
I told all my friends.

After church i told the associate pastor.
He prayed .....and nothing...zero...zilch

I came out and faced all those friends that were spirit filled.

Told them my deal was a dud.

.....thank you Jesus for Holy Ghost women!!!!
Two of them overheard my conversation.
They marched me back into the church. Laid their hands on me and called Down the Holy Ghost right on top of my head.

Marge said " open your mouth"!

When i did tongues poured out like a river.

I look back and compare what we have now in churches.

Tragic.

I was so very fortunate to be in that movement.
So powerful
Beyond words.

 

[Absolutely]

I have a lot to say about that, but lack time. I've seen 3 very strange movies in the last 3 days, and the craziest one was less than 15 minutes ago. Your post beat them all, but makes sense. You seem to be in a place where there is still Christian outreach in that way. God bless, and praise God.

But I would warn you that it doesn't always work out that way. Our last pastor, who quit due to a return to drinking, gave up because he couldn't bring back his old experiences, pretty much as you described it. He desperately tried to regain some previous time in his life, when his ministry was on fire.

Be ready in season and out of season. But in the meantime, enjoy it!

abraham had haggar
David had bathsheba
Your pastor had alcohol.

Does not mean God can not see his mission through.

They say the best format to start a ministry is a destroyed reputation.

If God intended to use him to start revival....revival through him may possibly be even more intense.( should he step into his anointing)

A farmer has to plow. Prepare the soil.
Revival needs components to sustain.
The Holy Spirit shows up. Then men can make room for Him or quench the revival.

 

[Absolutely]

once a person pursues the anointing, attacking will come as well as tremendous temptation.

The enemy will invoke many many demons to stop the anointing and revival.

 

[Absolutely]

Tongues comes into a mighty force during attacking from the enemy.

 

[Major]

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

Humility is the key to Chrisanity!

 

[randyk]

abraham had haggar
David had bathsheba
Your pastor had alcohol.

Does not mean God can not see his mission through.

They say the best format to start a ministry is a destroyed reputation.

If God intended to use him to start revival....revival through him may possibly be even more intense.( should he step into his anointing)

A farmer has to plow. Prepare the soil.
Revival needs components to sustain.
The Holy Spirit shows up. Then men can make room for Him or quench the revival.

I agree, but if you will look at the history of Israel, you will see there were times when even with the best leaders, the people were unwilling to give up their gods. Elijah ministered in a time of great idolatry, and even his defeat of Baal worship did not succeed in turning the people around spiritually.

We go through ebbs and flows. We have to be prepared to minister "in season and out of season."

I've experienced revival here in the US, and have seen tremendous outpouring of God's Spirit. Today, I still see effective ministry going on, but the revival is few and far between. The people are immersed in idolatry of various kinds, and many simply will not give it up. They've successfully rationalized it away.

My determination is to continue in living a Christian life without paying any regard to the backsliding of America. I'll go on declaring the truth whatever conditions I find myself in.

Those were the conditions John the Baptist and Jesus found themselves in. What seemed like great displays of repentance and reformation actually ended up being a complete spiritual collapse in Israel. And yet the young Church was still born in this environment. Paul exhorted us to continue to "stand."

 

[randyk]

While there are Charismatic Presbyterians (In New Zealand anyway), the one I went to in Auckland didn't want to be Charismatic, although there were some Charismatics in the membership. My church was half way between two suburbs, Papakura and Manurewa. The Papakura church was Charismatic, and the Manurewa church was Calvinist. The elders of my church wanted to be middle of the road between the two. There were members who clearly testified of their own healing by the power of God. And there were other members who said quite clearly that they didn't want the church to become a Pentecostal one. But we all had fellowship with each other as Christian believers, and lost sight of the mixture of Baptists, Anglicans, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some Presbyterians we had in our fellowship. In fact, I had to be careful about what I preached, because I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want to alienate anyone, so when I preached, I was a "one message man" - Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead.

When we lost our minister through lack of finances and became an elder-run church, I had the job of arranging visiting preachers. Instead of using the list of elderly dried up retired Presbyterian ministers, I arranged for my Charismatic mates to come and preach to us. One Sunday morning one gave prophecies to every member present and they were remarkably accurate, seeing that the preacher was a total stranger to the congregation; and no one complained at all. They just drank it all in!

I think that the people in the church felt that the gifts of the Spirit were an unknown quantity for them, and they did not want to go overboard in things they didn't know about. Presbyterians can be very cautious that way. Yet, my friend who runs a prophetic ministry and itinerates around different churches tells me that the most powerful prophecies came from Charismatic Presbyterian elders!

When there were people in the church with medical conditions, when I offered prayer for them, none of them refused. I told them that they didn't need faith, because I had enough faith for both of us, and I just took their wrist and said, "Jesus heals you". They might have resisted if I had got them up to the front of the church and started publicly laying hands on their heads and prayed dramatic Pentecostal prayers over them. When I pray for a sick person, I am so discrete that even someone sitting nearby would think I was just having a normal talk with them. That way, people are not embarrassed by theatrical displays and their privacy is preserved.

So those people didn't care that I prayed in tongues (not in front of them of course), gave prophecies ("If Jesus was here He might have said this to you"), and prayed for sick people. They saw me as just another brother in Christ, who was prepared to do the work of church treasurer, be an elder, and lead from behind so as to encourage others to take more prominent roles in the church. Therefore they view me as a person first, and not just as a Charismatic. Isn't that the way we should view all our brothers and sisters in Christ?

It means that I can join any non-Charismatic church and be fully accepted if I present myself as a genuine, Christ-centred believer and brother in Christ, without trying to push my idealized theology on to them. It's a matter of respecting who they are in themselves and working with them as the Spirit leads.

I can clearly see a prophetic spirit on your description of what you experience in Australia. How exciting! Yes, we have to find and remain in our gifts--not try to be someone else. It's all about following the Spirit.

The success of charismatic/pentetcostal manifestations depends, I think, on the Spirit, as well. There is no pin number to ensure that God does this or that--no magic formula that moves the heart of God to do something when He has already determined *not* to do that thing.

I've seen it, and I've experienced it. Here in the US I've seen tremendous evidence of divine manifestation in the form of God's presence in worship, miracles of healing, the development of ministries, etc. But when the people get entrenched in false gods, materialism, and sin, some ministries and Christians also get caught up in it, rationalize it, and a compromised Christianity evolves.

At some point, after exhausting His patience, God gives up and ends the miracles, the manifestations, the revelations, the powerful exhibitions of His presence, etc. And nothing can be done to restore it until God sees fit. This is, I believe, the process of disciplining the Church.

So we prepare to stand in season and out of season. Nothing we experience--no lack of spiritual manifestation--should discourage us. When we fall below God's standard of holiness, it seems that God stops covering us for all of our mistakes. And mistakes become abuses that need to be seriously dealt with. For a long time some ministries continue without discipline. But the times comes when God wants to clean things up, and deal with the spiritual decline in a country.

I don't pretend to know all of this for sure. It's just what I've witnessed. And I'm putting the pieces together.

 

[CS1]

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

Today is Pentacost Sunday

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

coming from a guy who instructs other to read


book "1984" by George Orwell, a known socialist, and a great example of modern humanism. I would never advise a Christian to read this without first understanding the person. That is what I am talking about these socialist humanistic Christians need pagan, occult, and secular modernism to explain the word of God. Yet they lack the ability to show by the word of God the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Sad.

I kind of inferred that because I don't know that I believe in "faith healing," for instance. Certainly not reviving the dead. Modern medicine is wondrous, but even it can't resurrect the dead. But, I don't know why unless it's part of the plan to remove objective evidence of God's power so people will continue to slide into unbelief.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Cessationism​

They worship head knowledge and think salvation is achieved by how much of the Bible they know or think they know.

They claim the gifts are not for today because it insults their intellect like the well-educated Greeks and philosophers. The Cross is foolishness to them. Paul said speaking about the "Last days in 2 Tim chapter 3 and warning bout those who have crept into the church




1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. (dynamis) And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit offend their intelligence. Why? Because they are incapable of accepting what is clearly seen in scripture and they are embarrassed by those who have misused them. It has to be this because we agree with them of those who are fake and foolish and fleecing the flock for money.


But that's not it. They attack the Gifts of the Holy Spirit because it is not rational thinking. Yet those who attack the fake on TV and those who are perverting the gifts of the Holy Spirit for money those who also on tv speaking out against it

Wearing $1000 suites and have over 6 figure salaries.

Those who are concessionist too are very rich it seems Just not as flamboyant as those they speak out against.

FYI that is called a hypocrite. They base the whole Idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today not because of the foolishness of those who do abuse them no,

They will show you videos to reinforce their idea that once the Bible was canonized the gifts just stopped. Then show you the fake use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and YELL SEE it has stopped.

But when asked please prove that 1cor chapter 13: 8-9 means the gifts have stopped


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


WE ask them how do you translate or interpret this to mean that the "Perfect" is the canonization of the Bible?
They can't. They will give you a history lesson and human reasoning but they can't show you from the word of God this to mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has stopped and not for today.



They get very mad then attack you and start to name call kind of like a liberal snowflake wearing a pink hat.

Oh wait look at this fake video of Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copland, or this guy to that guy or women, then they jump into 1cor 14 about women being silent. All those who say this wearing $1000 suites


Excuse me please show me the proof from the Word of God?

I did! I gave you 1cor 13:8-9 you are just to wolven into your pentacostel doctrine. look at this video.

But.... 1cor 13:8-9 doesn't say the gift has ceased, it says they will cease and I am asking you how is the "perfect" to mean the bible?


IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD PERFECT!!!!!

Yes, it is amen, but so are the Holy Spirits' gifts. Has the Holy Spirit ever gave anything to the church that was not perfect?

Listen !!!!! the KJV Bible is that which was perfect to Come OK !!!!!


Ok, But Jesus said in the KJV Bible in Mark 16:15-18


5 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name, they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


THAT WAS ADDED AN NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATION !!!

I see,


Thank you, and I will continue to pray with my understand and pray in the Spirit, I will lay hands on the sick and see those saved and addictions are broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit as I preach the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ, having the word of God confirmed with signs & wonders.

By those set free, saved, delivered, and yes healed. IF you are not seeing that don't get mad at me because I am, You talk to your Boss and ask HIM why you are not.

you keep your power/point presentation there is no power in it so what's the point?

You think your level of knowledge, has saved you and keeps you saved. You provide no hope to the addicted or the sick because you are afraid and have doubt. You are fearful to trust God because your eyes are on those who abuse the gifts instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus. And you are more concerned about what the world thinks about you.

You think that you can save someone from error because of your human reasoning. You have an issue with those on tv then address those people not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

seeking the occult and pagan practices and trying to toe tag the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to it. Shame on you. You have an issue with

Kenneth Copland, and those on TV Please I'm sure you have the ability to get their address and phone number and speak to them about their error You have my blessing to do so.

I think this was a very well composed and written explanation. Can I tell you what I always thought about Mark 16:15-18? You might disagree because we may have different interpretations of scripture.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Casting out devils: Liberating people from belief and faith in false doctrines. (Converting someone to the faith.)
Speak in new tongues: Understanding and speaking true Bible doctrine.
Verse 18 in general: Taking up serpents and drinking a deadly thing is devil's indoctrination and confronting falsely indoctrinated people will not result in you being swayed away from true Bible doctrine.

Indeed, those are true spiritual gifts that can come from no other source. Discerning of spirits is a tremendous gift of the spirit. It's very real. If it weren't here and dispensed to God's children, they would all be lost.

 

[Major]

once a person pursues the anointing, attacking will come as well as tremendous temptation.

The enemy will invoke many many demons to stop the anointing and revival.

Typical AOG dogma.