50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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that’s why I do not participate in these threads often, even though it is my favorite subject
you do not want to discuss the word you want to prove to everyone how right you are,
you have not done anything but give me your view,
I do not buy your view, but you are free to have it. Since you have proven you have no desire to actually sit and discuss ideas, I chose freely to cease our discussion, t will get us no where,
have fun, and God bless
you do not want to discuss the word you want to prove to everyone how right you are,
you have not done anything but give me your view,
I do not buy your view, but you are free to have it. Since you have proven you have no desire to actually sit and discuss ideas, I chose freely to cease our discussion, t will get us no where,
have fun, and God bless
I have presented truth. Where is the "trump card" verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven?
If you had that, you would have PROVED your view. Solidly. But you don't have such a verse. NO rapture verse mentions Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
So you can gently slide of that high horse you're sitting on. And don't hurt yourself while dismounting.
2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming. But many reject the obvious.
I am using a word to create a visual, to help people understand the issue. The pretrib issue is that Jesus comes "in the clouds", resurrects the dead believers who accompanied HIm to the clouds, gathers up the living believers, which is a rapture, changes them, and then takes the whole bunch to heaven.
That is a U-turn for Jesus and all the dead saints. Leaving heaven, coming to the clouds of earth, and then going back up to heaven.
If that doesn't describe a U-turn, then prove it.
No, that would be a very small U-turn. And saying "the entire church being caught up" is quite absurd. By the time Jesus comes to resurrect all dead saints, and rapturing all living believers, regardless of when that occurs, it should be rather obvious that the VAST MAJORITY of the church will have already died and are already in heaven. Yes, they will be accompanying Jesus when He comes to resurrect and rapture all believers.
Fine. Your view has a HUGE U-turn, while mine as a teeny tiny u-turn. If we're measuring by miles. Or light years. Take your pick.
OK, use ad hominem when you don't have actual proof or evidence.
If you have proven your view, then you WOULD HAVE quoted a verse that clearly teaches that Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.
So don't pat yourself on the back UNTIL you can actually do that.
Yes, they ARE clear about NOT describing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers back up to heaven.
True, but doesn't prove anything about when the rapture occurs.
Exactly!! The Millennial kingdom begins when Jesus comes to earth to END the trib. And He brings with Him all the dead saints, and He gathers/raptures all the living believers. They will be reigning with Him, per Rev 20:5.
OK. now, YOU pay attention! Are YOUR spsiritual sensors on?
This classic rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking the resurrected/raptured believers up to heaven!!
This doesn't address the timing of the rapture.
But the real question is: are YOU?
Oh, I see. You are into gross conflation to create your point. At the point of the Second Advent, NO believer will EVER visit the 3rd heaven. So obviously our citizen really refers to the new earth and the New Jerusalem. Read Hebrews 11.
Your assumptions are inaccurate. Israel lived IN Egypt but missed all the wrath God places on Egypt.
Do you not have the faith to believe that God is able to repeat that, but on a global scale?
lol. Jesus hadn't died yet when He spoke those words. And He DID "come back and welcomed them into His presence". Are you not aware that He could have been referring to the indwelling Holy Spirit who would come when Jesus ascended to heaven? All this fulfills what Jesus said in John 14:1-3.
The truth is 2 Thess 2:1-3, regarding WHEN the rapture occurs. Why are your eyes so tightly closed and your fingers digging deeply into your ears?
Yeah, there's your big U-turn. But why does it make sense WHEN there are NO rapture verses that describe what you guys keep claiming?
If you had that, you would have PROVED your view. Solidly. But you don't have such a verse. NO rapture verse mentions Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
So you can gently slide of that high horse you're sitting on. And don't hurt yourself while dismounting.
2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming. But many reject the obvious.
I am using a word to create a visual, to help people understand the issue. The pretrib issue is that Jesus comes "in the clouds", resurrects the dead believers who accompanied HIm to the clouds, gathers up the living believers, which is a rapture, changes them, and then takes the whole bunch to heaven.
That is a U-turn for Jesus and all the dead saints. Leaving heaven, coming to the clouds of earth, and then going back up to heaven.
If that doesn't describe a U-turn, then prove it.
No, that would be a very small U-turn. And saying "the entire church being caught up" is quite absurd. By the time Jesus comes to resurrect all dead saints, and rapturing all living believers, regardless of when that occurs, it should be rather obvious that the VAST MAJORITY of the church will have already died and are already in heaven. Yes, they will be accompanying Jesus when He comes to resurrect and rapture all believers.
Fine. Your view has a HUGE U-turn, while mine as a teeny tiny u-turn. If we're measuring by miles. Or light years. Take your pick.
OK, use ad hominem when you don't have actual proof or evidence.
If you have proven your view, then you WOULD HAVE quoted a verse that clearly teaches that Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.
So don't pat yourself on the back UNTIL you can actually do that.
Yes, they ARE clear about NOT describing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers back up to heaven.
True, but doesn't prove anything about when the rapture occurs.
Exactly!! The Millennial kingdom begins when Jesus comes to earth to END the trib. And He brings with Him all the dead saints, and He gathers/raptures all the living believers. They will be reigning with Him, per Rev 20:5.
OK. now, YOU pay attention! Are YOUR spsiritual sensors on?
This classic rapture verse says NOTHING about Jesus taking the resurrected/raptured believers up to heaven!!
This doesn't address the timing of the rapture.
But the real question is: are YOU?
Oh, I see. You are into gross conflation to create your point. At the point of the Second Advent, NO believer will EVER visit the 3rd heaven. So obviously our citizen really refers to the new earth and the New Jerusalem. Read Hebrews 11.
Your assumptions are inaccurate. Israel lived IN Egypt but missed all the wrath God places on Egypt.
Do you not have the faith to believe that God is able to repeat that, but on a global scale?
lol. Jesus hadn't died yet when He spoke those words. And He DID "come back and welcomed them into His presence". Are you not aware that He could have been referring to the indwelling Holy Spirit who would come when Jesus ascended to heaven? All this fulfills what Jesus said in John 14:1-3.
The truth is 2 Thess 2:1-3, regarding WHEN the rapture occurs. Why are your eyes so tightly closed and your fingers digging deeply into your ears?
Yeah, there's your big U-turn. But why does it make sense WHEN there are NO rapture verses that describe what you guys keep claiming?
FreeGrace2 said:
How come you CANNOT quote ANY verse that describes resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven?
OK, then please quote just the one best verse that does describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, and I will apologize for my error.
How come you CANNOT quote ANY verse that describes resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven?
OK, then please quote just the one best verse that does describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, and I will apologize for my error.
No, he tells us WHEN the Second Advent and rapture WILL occur in 2 Thess 2:1.
2Thess 2:1 proves it is true.
Of course I always agree to disagree. I sure can't force anyone to believe anything. And God doesn't force anyone to believe anything either.
But I have Scrpture that says what I believe. I haven't seen any verse describe Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2Thess 2:1 proves it is true.
Of course I always agree to disagree. I sure can't force anyone to believe anything. And God doesn't force anyone to believe anything either.
But I have Scrpture that says what I believe. I haven't seen any verse describe Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
No such verse exists because they aren't going to heaven. 
For those reading: The living saints at the end of the Great Tribulation are separated and are all over the globe at the second coming but Christ wants them all at one place so he has them raptured up into the clouds from where ever they were before that so now all the living saints are in one place in the clouds exactly where Christ is. This is a brief pause in the second coming process which will continue when all the saints are together. No one is raptured to heaven because that's not where Christ wants them.
For those reading: The living saints at the end of the Great Tribulation are separated and are all over the globe at the second coming but Christ wants them all at one place so he has them raptured up into the clouds from where ever they were before that so now all the living saints are in one place in the clouds exactly where Christ is. This is a brief pause in the second coming process which will continue when all the saints are together. No one is raptured to heaven because that's not where Christ wants them.
No such verse exists because they aren't going to heaven.
For those reading: The living saints at the end of the Great Tribulation are separated and are all over the globe at the second coming but Christ wants them all at one place so he has them raptured up into the clouds from where ever they were before that so now all the living saints are in one place in the clouds exactly where Christ is. This is a brief pause in the second coming process which will continue when all the saints are together. No one is raptured to heaven because that's not where Christ wants them.
For those reading: The living saints at the end of the Great Tribulation are separated and are all over the globe at the second coming but Christ wants them all at one place so he has them raptured up into the clouds from where ever they were before that so now all the living saints are in one place in the clouds exactly where Christ is. This is a brief pause in the second coming process which will continue when all the saints are together. No one is raptured to heaven because that's not where Christ wants them.
YOU WILL LOSE THAT BET!
Revelation 4:1 (NKJV)
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
Revelation 4:4 (NKJV)
4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 4:10-11 (NKJV)
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."
Revelation 5:11-12 (NKJV)
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
Revelation 5:14 (NKJV)
14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Revelation 7:9-12 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Revelation 7:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Revelation 11:7-12 (NCV)
7 When the two witnesses have finished telling their message, the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit will fight a war against them. He will defeat them and kill them.
8 The bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the street of the great city where the Lord was killed. This city is named Sodom and Egypt, which has a spiritual meaning.
9 Those from every race of people, tribe, language, and nation will look at the bodies of the two witnesses for three and one-half days, and they will refuse to bury them.
10 People who live on the earth will rejoice and be happy because these two are dead. They will send each other gifts, because these two prophets brought much suffering to those who live on the earth.
11 But after three and one-half days, God put the breath of life into the two prophets again. They stood on their feet, and everyone who saw them became very afraid.
12 Then the two prophets heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here!“ And they went up into heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched.
Zechariah 14:5 (TLB)
5 You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all his saints and angels with him.
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NO, it is not a RETURN, until HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND on Mount of OLIVES.
Zechariah 14:3-5 (TLB)
3 Then the Lord will go out fully armed for war, to fight against those nations.
4 That day his feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives, to the east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a very wide valley running from east to west, for half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.
5 You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all his saints and angels with him.
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No, I won't because the rapture only takes people to the clouds of the Earth, not to heaven:
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
See how I actually use a scripture that uses the Greek word for rapture to prove my argument? No mention of going up higher to heaven because that doesn't happen to the raptured saints. They actually will be the saints reigning on Earth in Revelation 5 and 20.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
See how I actually use a scripture that uses the Greek word for rapture to prove my argument? No mention of going up higher to heaven because that doesn't happen to the raptured saints. They actually will be the saints reigning on Earth in Revelation 5 and 20.
Mat_26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
The Kingdom is coming here to be established on Earth and wine comes from the Earth.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
The Kingdom is Earthly.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
The redeemer is Christ and he shall stand upon the Earth in the latter day.
Rev_14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Mount Sion is an Earthly mountain. It is located just outside of Jerusalem.
HE is Following the Jewish Proposal to marriage, and the Tradition Wedding to the TEA.
Jewish Marriage Proposal, consists of:
Making a Contract with the Father, specifically to redeem the BRIDE.
Father wanted a Holy Blood Sacrifice to redeem the BRIDE.
The Bridegroom was to attend a Supper (the Last Supper) and Pour a Cup of Wine and set it in front of the BRIDE.
The Proposal was NON-VERBAL, she KNEW what it meant, the Disciples after Judas left, Drank from that 3rd Cup;
which is the Acceptance for the Church, the 11 Disciples Accepted the Proposal for all of us.
Jesus Made the TRADITIONAL announcement "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU IN MY FATHERS HOUSE."
John 14:2 (HCSB)
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
When HE departed the Old Dwelling Place of the BRIDE, HE is not allowed to come back until the New Dwelling place is finished.
Only the FATHER has the RESPONSIBILITY after all is FINISHED according to the FATHER's specification, "GO GET YOUR BRIDE."
HE always came to Steal the BRIDE away at NIGHT. But even then HE is not allowed to set foot NEAR the Old Dwelling Place.
HE had to chose one of HIS Wedding Party, to GO to the old dwelling place and SHOUT to CALL OUT THE BRIDE.
HE has CHOSEN the Archangel.
That SHOUT we are told WILL BE LIKE:
Matthew 25:6 (HCSB)
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
A night the City of Jerusalem had NO STREET LAMPS, so it was absolutely necessary to have your Own Lantern with Oil in it.
The Oil in it was symbolism for the HOLY SPIRIT in our HEART, and YES, only Born Again Believers are Invited to Wedding in Heaven.
AFTER they arrive at the place where the BRIDEGROOM is WAITING, they will all go BACK TO THE FATHER's House for the WEDDING.
BUT it is not like a Christian Wedding, it LASTS a Whole WEEK, and since Daniel chapter 9, is a WEEK OF YEARS, this will be TOO.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. {Wherever HE goes there after.}
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The last day of the WEDDING, it is a Supper called the Wedding Feast, and it also is in the New City Jerusalem in HEAVEN.
There are two Wedding Feast in a Jewish Wedding. The first one in the Bridegroom's Father's House, and after the first Wedding Feast,
a second one is held for family members, usually at the Bride's Father house, that those who could not make it to the WEDDING,
where Bridegroom and the BRIDE even repeat their Wedding Vows.
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Well I have scripture that says what I believe also
when you talk to someone, what yu say is, I think the bi le says this, and this is why then they say what they think, then you discuss it, and either you learn from each other or you come to a stale mate,
yu don’t come in all proud and sat this is what the Bible teaches and that’s final
when you do that, your unteachable, your unresponsive, and you arguing not discussing.
good day sir. Once again I can not discuss my favorite subject because we have proud people on both sides who think they know it all, and you have people argue instead of having a peaceful discussion.
when you talk to someone, what yu say is, I think the bi le says this, and this is why then they say what they think, then you discuss it, and either you learn from each other or you come to a stale mate,
yu don’t come in all proud and sat this is what the Bible teaches and that’s final
when you do that, your unteachable, your unresponsive, and you arguing not discussing.
good day sir. Once again I can not discuss my favorite subject because we have proud people on both sides who think they know it all, and you have people argue instead of having a peaceful discussion.
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