How We Can Tell If We Possess The Agape of God

[throughfaith]

Whatever it takes to quiet your conscience, friend.

There are many who are waking up to the lie of OSAS by the evidence here in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV that the "many" are:

• SAINTS (by their possession of "agape")
• SAINTS who allow it to grow cold and dead because of abounding iniquity (the practice of which is what kills love for God, for it feeds the carnal man and starves the Spiritual man)
• SAINTS who are rendered incapable of enduring to the end, and alas, are lost.

No such thing as OSAS or its presumed License to Sin.

I'm still referring to Mathew 24 . Its plain as day that its referring to the tribulation. You will never read anything like this to the body of christ ' endure to the end to be saved ' . Not once .

 

[throughfaith]

Is not "agape" the highest from of love which comes only from God? Are you saying the wicked can manifest such love, having no connection to God?

Do you understand that "agape" is shown by the keeping of the commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV), which the wicked cannot keep (Romans 8:7 KJV) and thus show they have not received it from God???

Can you see the "many" are actually Saints whose agape grows cold and dead, and will be lost?

Rom 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall TRIBULATION, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37¶Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that NEITHER DEATH NOR LIFE , nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things PRESENT NOR THINGS TO COME ,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

" oh ,but it doesn't say WE can't separate ourselves " . Yes that right it doesn't.

 

[throughfaith]

Whatever it takes to quiet your conscience, friend.

There are many who are waking up to the lie of OSAS by the evidence here in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV that the "many" are:

• SAINTS (by their possession of "agape")
• SAINTS who allow it to grow cold and dead because of abounding iniquity (the practice of which is what kills love for God, for it feeds the carnal man and starves the Spiritual man)
• SAINTS who are rendered incapable of enduring to the end, and alas, are lost.

No such thing as OSAS or its presumed License to Sin.

You have to question ,why your so passionate about it ? Its not out of love is it ? lol . Most people who hold to works salvation are most angry people you can meet .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus contrasts two groups: (1) those that "shall endure to the end" and are "saved", and (2) the "many" who allow their love to grow cold because of widespread iniquity.

STOP!!!
At this time, please take a moment to acknowledge what you
and everyone else believes about these "many":
that they are the wicked who were never saved
and will end up lost.​

Except, that these "many" are indeed saints!

How do we know?

Jesus said their "love" (Greek: "AGAPE") would grow cold and only the saints can partake of "agape"!

How do we know?

John says the agape of God is demonstrated by the keeping of His commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV) while Paul says the wicked absolutely cannot keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)!!!

Now, at this time, you are reconsidering what you acknowledged a few seconds ago:
that the "many" whose agape grows cold and dead are going to be lost.

When you thought the "many" were the wicked, you had no problem understanding they would be lost
in contrast to those who will endure to the end and are saved,
but now that I've proven these "many" can't possibly be the "wicked" - but are saints who will end up lost -
you're now stumbling over yourself to find a way to make them "saved"
because of your preconceived belief in OSAS.

Shame on you. You know full well that we are never to approach the Bible with preconceived notions and search for texts that prop up our doctrine, but we are to pray for the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all truth", come what may. Well, what has come is the death of OSAS. What are you going to do about it?
​

Matt 24 is about the end times, and speaks about enduring to the end of tribulation to have yur physical life saved, has nothing to do with eternal salvation

however, how can we tell?

we become christlike

so when you going to become more christlike and not more pharisee like?

 

[posthuman]

You have to question ,why your so passionate about it ? Its not out of love is it ? lol . Most people who hold to works salvation are most angry people you can meet .

also among the most self-righteous, second only perhaps to moral atheists.

 

[posthuman]

"Agapeo" and "Agape" are two different words.

yeah one is a verb and the other a noun.

same root; same meaning.

 

[posthuman]

"Agape" is always used in reference to Godly love...ALWAYS.

well, you're wrong because you pretend the noun form of a verb is not the same meaning as the verb.

so, with that in mind, knowing that you will not listen to reason, let me show you something anyway that i've already shown you and you already rejected ((because you aren't actually interested in the truth, no matter how well you pretend and puff)):

A new commandment I give to you, that you love ((agapao)) one another; as I have loved ((agapao)) you, that you also love ((agapao)) one another. ​

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love ((agape)) for one another.”​

(John 13:34-35)​

​

you say the verb is wildly different than the noun.
Christ commands us to carry out the verb.
Christ pretty clearly indicates they are exactly the same thing.

so. i guess you are smarter than God, huh.

((that is, if you are correct, but you're not -- you only make this argument in order to threaten Christians with loss of salvation, so as to make God evil, giving merely temporary illusion of life and lying by calling it eternal))

at any rate what's commanded is agapao, the verb, the thing you say only non-believers have.
weird huh.

 

[posthuman]

Posthuman made the same

ooh! i'm famous!

but @Dino246 showed you that some nobody named John Piper understands verb & noun form of a single word the same way the famous post does. ((post #51))

 

[posthuman]

You should have kept reading. The same source, BlueLetterBible, lists this following for G26, agape:

ἀγάπη
Root Word (Etymology) From ἀγαπάω (G25)

Agape is a derivative of Agapao, meaning it is not a "different word completely" at all!

Next time, drop the self-righteous rhetoric. It has no place in this discussion.

isn't it ironic how a guy who preaches a false works-salvation rejects every instance of the verb-form of love, the actual 'doing' of love, as being genuine?

 

[posthuman]

I never denied that "agape" is derived from "agapao" - only your claim that "agape" was the "root of "agapao".

"Agapao" is a verb that doesn't denote anywhere near the degree of intensity of love as does the noun "agape", which refers to unconditional, divine, Godly love.

We can't find a single instance in Scripture where "agape" is attributed to the wicked

so you admit that love is love, but you say to actually love someone isn't anywhere near as true as merely 'having love' for them?

i feel like you're telling us to strive to do no works.

 

[posthuman]

While it is true that "cold agape" is not specifically called "dead agape", it's certainly must be a state of "insufficiently" (2 Kings 4:34 KJV; Revelation 3:16 KJV) when even "lukewarmness" falls short, right? What else could "cold agape" imply but "dead agape"?

wow man did you even read your references?


in 2 Kings 4:34 the cold, dead boy, representing you is brought to life, waxing warm, by the prophet, representing Christ - not in any way whatsoever by his own works or merit! he's dead! pure mercy! he didn't warm himself up and he didn't stay dead owing to his coldness!
in Revelation 3:16 Christ desires that they be either cold or hot, rather than lukewarm. here being cold is good !


dude.
these are the kinds of verses you don't want to bring up when your thesis is the damnation of believers.
friendly advice: it will suit your case better to think more clearly about your arguments before you post them. you look silly refuting yourself; that's the point where you backspace or hit the little 'delete draft' button and reconsider what in the world you're doing.

endurance is endurance in faith. not endurance in works.

 

[Ogom]

In Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus contrasts two groups: (1) those that "shall endure to the end" and are "saved", and (2) the "many" who allow their love to grow cold because of widespread iniquity.

STOP!!!
At this time, please take a moment to acknowledge what you
and everyone else believes about these "many":
that they are the wicked who were never saved
and will end up lost.​

Except, that these "many" are indeed saints!

How do we know?

Jesus said their "love" (Greek: "AGAPE") would grow cold and only the saints can partake of "agape"!

How do we know?

John says the agape of God is demonstrated by the keeping of His commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV) while Paul says the wicked absolutely cannot keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)!!!

Now, at this time, you are reconsidering what you acknowledged a few seconds ago:
that the "many" whose agape grows cold and dead are going to be lost.

When you thought the "many" were the wicked, you had no problem understanding they would be lost
in contrast to those who will endure to the end and are saved,
​

Take up Your Cross

36 A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ 37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38 and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.…


"of his own household" -- of his own self, mind, life, and heart ? . ? .

 

[Phoneman-777]

Wrong, though exactly what I expected you to say.

Go and read up on the fallacy of the excluded middle, also called the false dichotomy.

What middle?

 

[Phoneman-777]

"Saint" doesn't explicitly appear in Matthew 24 and the concept of what a saint is varies.

According to Psalms 50:5 KJV, a "saint" is anyone who makes a covenant with God by sacrifice. That means the New Covenant Christian who takes up "his cross daily" and follows Jesus, according to Luke 9:23 KJV. The "wheat" is what is gathered to God in the end - the saints. The "tares" are burned in the fire - sinners and hypocrites.

"And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes." - 2 Kings 32-35

The 2 Kings 4:34 reference is puzzling because that part of 2 Kings 4 is talking about something akin to CPR performed on a child. "flesh of the [formly dead] child waxed warm." I see the possible connection but it's not clear in 2 Kings 4 at what point the child returned to life (after the prayer and before being warmed? Or after being warmed? Or after the last stretch?). If we're trying to look at 2 Kings 4's usage of "warm" as a means of gauging the presence of life, it isn't necessarily the case that "warm = alive".

If "lukewarm" is unacceptable to God, how much more unacceptable is "cold"?

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked [...] be zealous therefore, and repent." Revelation 3:14-17&19b KJV

Lukewarm meaning "insufficient" in at least the sense of not meeting the glory of God, but there is additional context in the passages around Rev 3:16. Even the church of the Laodiceans is not necessarily voided of their salvation as a result of their falsely founded pride and contentment. In order to better themselves, God tells them to repent. This seems to be more of a theme of losing ones way rather than an explicit ejection from salvation.

To what lengths is the OSAS crowd willing to go? When Jesus "spews" people out of His mouth and tells them they're "blind" and "naked", the symbolism is unmistakable: rejection, lacking the robe of His righteousness, no spiritual discernment, etc. He promises to take the candlestick away from those in Ephesus for failing to rediscover their "first love", but the Laodiceans are in no trouble, when THEY GET THE ABSOLUTE WORST GRADES OF THE ENTIRE 7 CHURCHES FINAL EXAM?

1 Corinthians 13:8 tells us that "agape never fails". I find it hard to reconcile "agape never fails" with the interpretation of Mat 24:12 as "agape that has died".
If we interpret Mat 24:12's "love waxed cold" as "agape that has lost much of its expressed intensity" it seems to be much more compatible with 1 Cor 13:8.

Context Context Context, please!!! "Love never fails" doesn't mean it can't turn cold and render the one in whom it is cold rejected by God -- it means it never fails to suffer long, be kind, abstain from envy, boasting, pride, etc., and all the other stuff mentioned contextually in the passage to which you refer.

Again, if "lukewarm" is cause for Christ's rejection, how much more is "cold"?

If the fate of the "many" whose agape turns cold is the same as the fate of those who "endure to the end" - salvation - the verse makes no sense at all. Jesus should have simply said, "Look, folks, iniquity's gonna abound and the agape of many of you is gonna grow cold." PERIOD. But, He deliberately contrasts the two groups, those who "endure to the end" and are saved with those whose iniquity turns cold (and dead) and are lost, like the lukewarm crowd that fails to buy the gold, white robe, and eyesalve of Christ.

 

[Phoneman-777]

It's YOU who is saying the wicked who have no connection with God can manifest agape love, or they were saved and then they were not and perhaps then they were again ... what a mess.

I would stop saying it if you OSAS LICENSE TO SIN PSUEDO-CHRISTIANS WOULD FIND JUST ONE VERSE THAT SAYS THE WICKED POSSESS OR PRACTICE "AGAPE" so until you all do, I'll keep saying it and there ain't a thing you can say Scripturally against it - have mercy, what does it take for you guys to condemn something other than a Christian who tells you the truth?

You do not keep the commandments, cannot keep it perfectly nobody [apart from one] ever has. If you break one law you are guilty of all, the law can't bend, it cannot make exceptions or it could no longer be law. It does not accept doing your best.

You don't know a thing about me, but I know what you've stated publicly: that breaking the Ten Commandments does not result in the Lake of Fire for those who do, but John says those who believe and practice religion as you do are liars who have zero truth in them.

We keep God's commandments they are not burdensome, the commandments of Moses were burdensome. Peter said they were a yoke which neither the fathers or they were able to bear.

This is God's commandment, Receive the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith and not by obedience to the law.

This is why 7th dayers have no witness of the Holy Spirit ... I've met a ton of them, they do not have the witness.

I say the love of many which we see already is growing cold does not refer to the church.

The OSAS definition of "love" is "God will forgive me so I'll just keep doing it", which is "presumptuous sins" which David said those who practice that will be found guilty of the "Great Transgression".

If you love God will you have other gods before Him? Worship images? Blaspheme? Of course not. Jesus said if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments, the same ones He spoke at Sinai and called "My Law".
But, you refuse to keep the seventh day Sabbath - and on this your "love" stands exposed for what it really is: empty words.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I thought we were going to talk about love.. ?

Still waiting for you to retract that idea about the wicked being able to partake of agape - which means "Godly love", right?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Nope.

In fact, the Greeks ((whose word this is)) understood philia, 'brotherly love' to be the higher sort.

So, our love for one another is greater than our love for God? SMH

 

[Phoneman-777]

I'm still referring to Mathew 24 . Its plain as day that its referring to the tribulation. You will never read anything like this to the body of christ ' endure to the end to be saved ' . Not once .

There's no such thing as a pre tribulation rapture that leaves people "left behind" because 2 Peter 3:10 KJV plainly says the day when Lord Jesus comes "as a thief' - the same day Paul says will not "overtake" us as it will thieves in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJV - there won't be 7 more minutes of anything, let alone 7 more years.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Rom 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall TRIBULATION, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37¶Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that NEITHER DEATH NOR LIFE , nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things PRESENT NOR THINGS TO COME ,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

" oh ,but it doesn't say WE can't separate ourselves " . Yes that right it doesn't.

Says it in so many other places, doesn't it?

Paul says if we fall away after having being made partakers of the Holy Ghost, it will be impossible for us to repent.

Peter says if we again become entangled with that from which we've escaped, the latter end will be worse than the beginning.

See what I did there? I showed you how we have to take the whole Bible together when formulating doctrine, not just the parts we like

 

[gb9]

Says it in so many other places, doesn't it?

Paul says if we fall away after having being made partakers of the Holy Ghost, it will be impossible for us to repent.

Peter says if we again become entangled with that from which we've escaped, the latter end will be worse than the beginning.

See what I did there? I showed you how we have to take the whole Bible together when formulating doctrine, not just the parts we like

posthuman just schooled you in language, even better than i did a while back.

you can ignore that, but we all see it.