Can One Hack Heaven

[soberxp]

I'm afraid when he does come, if I am alive, I'll probably be playing video games.

steam or Xbox or ps5?

 

[Jocund]

The Bible says yes....pre trib rapture.
However, since you have already reached a conclusion why are you asking?

My disagreement is more of an impression rather than a conclusion. I haven't seen a compelling interpretation for pre-trib rapture that only uses scripture. But that said, I'm also fairly fresh to the concept of pre-trib rapture.

Thomas Aquinas had a method for testing ideas by first demonstrating internal consistency and then making a case for why it was the most compelling out of competing theories. I generally like that approach.

 

[JaumeJ]

From the Book of Daniel it seems quite clear there will be many who believe to help others through the time of tribulation.


Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

[throughfaith]

Is it possible to gain entry into heaven via a secret passage way?

Some preachers actually tell people that if they are left behind at the Rapture, all they need to do is avoid the Mark of the Beast, suffer the beheading, and bingo, you're a qualified Tribulation Saint!

This podcaster disagrees with this view.

Listen to it at: https://anchor.fm/anax-jos/episodes/Hacking-Heaven-erotin/a-a1q08g
View attachment 228583

A non believer can become a believer during the tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm afraid when he does come, if I am alive, I'll probably be playing video games.

That's ok, Orphaned, He will change you immortal and glorified and raise you regardless of whether your sleeping, awake, in the shower, driving, playing video games or sleeping. Just make sure that you are continuing in faith and that your heart is not focused on the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature. Stay in the word and in prayer.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

That's ok, Orphaned, He will change you immortal and glorified and raise you regardless of whether your sleeping, awake, in the shower, driving, playing video games or sleeping. Just make sure that you are continuing in faith and that your heart is not focused on the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature. Stay in the word and in prayer.

My worry though is that I become consumed by these games and become exactly what you say I must not fall into. It's like my heart is with one or the other, but not both. For a while, I was playing them compulsively and obsessively. Then I got bored with them and began reading God's word obsessively and compulsively. Now it's the other way around again. It's like Jesus and the devil are playing tug of war with me and if somehow I'm supposed to decide between the two, it seems like I'm not able.

It's damning and I know it, yet how wretched am I?

I play a science fiction game where I jet through space, blow things up, wield weapons, behead enemies with a single stroke and tear them limb from limb with supernatural agility shoot them with radiation weapons and watch them combust.

Compared to my own boring, mundane life.

But I will say, there is nothing as exciting as learning a secret truth from God's word, or learning anything. Even that is greater than all the fun of my games.

 

[Runningman]

My disagreement is more of an impression rather than a conclusion. I haven't seen a compelling interpretation for pre-trib rapture that only uses scripture. But that said, I'm also fairly fresh to the concept of pre-trib rapture.

Thomas Aquinas had a method for testing ideas by first demonstrating internal consistency and then making a case for why it was the most compelling out of competing theories. I generally like that approach.

Been living and breathing eschatology for a while. This isn't a quick discussion so I won't go into any exhaustive reasoning behind the why I believe what I do. I've expounded why in other threads already: the pre-trib rapture doesn't exist and the church will be present on Earth during the great tribulation (GT).

That being said, the Holy Spirit (HS) will be present on Earth for the GT as demonstrated by the fact that the two witnesses will have power to do miracles and there are saints, indwelt with the HS, present in the GT who will be beheaded. Conclusively, the "restrainer" (KJV) mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not the Holy Spirit, but most likely Michael the Archangel (but that's a whole 'nother topic worth its own thread.)

So since the HS will be present in the GT, it will be possible to become a born again believer. Jesus promised all believers in His gospel will be born again in spirit. Long story short, it's not over until Christ returns at the very end of the GT.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My worry though is that I become consumed by these games and become exactly what you say I must not fall into. It's like my heart is with one or the other, but not both. For a while, I was playing them compulsively and obsessively. Then I got bored with them and began reading God's word obsessively and compulsively. Now it's the other way around again. It's like Jesus and the devil are playing tug of war with me and if somehow I'm supposed to decide between the two, it seems like I'm not able.

It's damning and I know it, yet how wretched am I?

I play a science fiction game where I jet through space, blow things up, wield weapons, behead enemies with a single stroke and tear them limb from limb with supernatural agility shoot them with radiation weapons and watch them combust.

Compared to my own boring, mundane life.

But I will say, there is nothing as exciting as learning a secret truth from God's word, or learning anything. Even that is greater than all the fun of my games.

Yeah, I know that you can really get caught up in those types of games. They're fun and adventurous! Everything in moderation I guess. When I get up, before I even start anything, I study the word and pray, even if I don't feel like it. Remember that scripture which says, "If you draw near unto God, He will draw near unto you?" Well, that is very true. When we spend time searching out His word to find the answers and continue in prayer giving thanks for all things, praying for others and making requests, then you begin to meditate on God and His word more and more without trying, which is the fulfillment of Him drawing near to you. You find your self mediating on God and His word when you're driving, laying on the bed, at work, watching tv, etc. It becomes more and more intense.

Remember when Daniel prayed and the angel Gabriel came in response to his prayer. Gabriel told Daniel that he was highly esteemed by God and that from the first day that Daniel desired to understand the visions of the four beastswhat he had previously been shown in a vision regarding the four beasts and to humble himself before God, his prayer was heard, and send Gabriel to give him meanings. Even though Gabriel was sent as soon as Daniel began to pray, he was detained twenty one days by the prince of Persia, which was not speaking about the literal human prince of Persia, but the spiritual powers of darkness (fallen angels) who were the power behind the human prince of Persia and his army. We know this because no human army could hold back an angel of God. In further support of this, Michael the archangel had to come to Gabriel's aide by battling with those fallen angels. You can read all of Daniel chapter 10 for that event.

But my point is, God is please when we set ourselves to understand His word. This is also evident in the book of Revelation where in the 3rd verse it says "Bless is he who reads the words of this prophecy and those who hear it and take to heart the things written therein."

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Yeah, I know that you can really get caught up in those types of games. They're fun and adventurous! Everything in moderation I guess. When I get up, before I even start anything, I study the word and pray, even if I don't feel like it. Remember that scripture which says, "If you draw near unto God, He will draw near unto you?" Well, that is very true. When we spend time searching out His word to find the answers and continue in prayer giving thanks for all things, praying for others and making requests, then you begin to meditate on God and His word more and more without trying, which is the fulfillment of Him drawing near to you. You find your self mediating on God and His word when you're driving, laying on the bed, at work, watching tv, etc. It becomes more and more intense.

Remember when Daniel prayed and the angel Gabriel came in response to his prayer. Gabriel told Daniel that he was highly esteemed by God and that from the first day that Daniel desired to understand the visions of the four beastswhat he had previously been shown in a vision regarding the four beasts and to humble himself before God, his prayer was heard, and send Gabriel to give him meanings. Even though Gabriel was sent as soon as Daniel began to pray, he was detained twenty one days by the prince of Persia, which was not speaking about the literal human prince of Persia, but the spiritual powers of darkness (fallen angels) who were the power behind the human prince of Persia and his army. We know this because no human army could hold back an angel of God. In further support of this, Michael the archangel had to come to Gabriel's aide by battling with those fallen angels. You can read all of Daniel chapter 10 for that event.

But my point is, God is please when we set ourselves to understand His word. This is also evident in the book of Revelation where in the 3rd verse it says "Bless is he who reads the words of this prophecy and those who hear it and take to heart the things written therein."

The only qualification with that is that it must be with our "whole heart." And that's the dilemma. I can make myself do it, but it won't be pleasing to God unless I'm seeking with my whole heart. And I can't make myself do it at times and at other times, I can't think of anything else.

But, it's a journey that requires God keep us in the path and provide all we need to be successful according to the vow Jacob made in Genesis 28:20-21. Those 2 verses sum up the entire covenant, right from the beginning. The "vow" Jacob made that God must keep since we are covenant breakers. Which is why I always point this out especially to "free-willers."

 

[Jocund]

rich man and Lazarus. [...]Once one dies, one would know the truth and there would be no need for faith.

That's not actually what Luke 16 says.

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." - Luke 16:29-31 KJV

Abraham said that even if his brothers did receive a message from the dead they would be unpersuaded. The rich man's concern was for sparing his brothers from Hades-fire. There is nothing in that story that says "once in hell, never saved".

When a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of Christ (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:21-26)

When an unbelieve dies, their spirits depart and go down into Hades to begin their punishment, just as the rich man did.

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." - 2 Cor 5:6-8 KJV

2 Cor 5:6-8 is speaking of a willingness to leave the body behind.

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again." - Phil 1:21-26

Phil 1:21-26 is Paul speaking about mixed feelings about wanting to leave to be with Christ and to stay in order to be of use to others that are also in the flesh.

Neither of those passages cover the concept that one immediately is judged, nor that those that enter Hades are indeed themselves judged yet. Paul's remark in Phil 1 fits well with Jesus' story about Lazarus, in that a person unconvinced by scripture will also be unconvinced by the testimony of the dead.

In Revelation 7:9-17, we are introduced to a group which no man can count from every nation, people, tribe and language (Gentiles) who will become believers and take their stand for Christ even in the face of extreme persecution and death and who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." - Rev 7:9-17

There's nothing in that passage that mentions gentiles (unless we're look at this alongside Paul's "to the jews first and gentiles after"). I don't see anything to indicate the multitude wouldn't also join in the great tribulation (and if we're referencing Paul's line, the multitude would be included).

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor 14:50-52

To me 1 Cor 14:50-52 is talking about states after death: some sleep, some stay awake in a good state, some stay awake in a bad state (Hades), and in the end there is the judgement. I have seen some comments that this is interpreted to be part of rapture. Do you have any more on this?

These are those saints who come out of the great tribulation period. In answer to your question, I'm sure that there will be many who believed in Christ who will have gone back into the world, and once again will be living according to the sinful nature, not keeping watch. When the church is gathered, they will know what has happened and will grieve because of their error. Many of these I'm sure will be apart of that group previously mentioned, as they know that it will be their only hope of salvation, since they were not ready when the Lord came to gather His church. The Lord warns believers about this very situation, demonstrated in the scripture below:

“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” - Luke 21:37-36

Let's look at the KJV:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." - Luke 21:34-36 KJV

This is a good line for guarding the heart. From what I understand, the accounting of those who are worthy comes at the reading of the book of life, which happens on judgement day.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Rev.3:10

The 'hour of trial' is another title describing the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, which is about to come upon the whole world and which is what the majority of the book of Revelation is revealing. The word 'ek' above is translated as 'out of' which means that believers will be kept out of that time of God's wrath, which will take place when the Lord comes to gather His church, which has always been imminent.

I'm not convinced that the hour of the trial is necessarily talking about pre-trib rapture, but it does make me think of 1 Cor 3.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." - 1 Cor 3:13-14 KJV

Another reason that current believers in Christ cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

Ezekiel 21:2-4 is an example of where God punishes the righteous with the wicked.

I hope that you agree with it now. Otherwise, you are not truly believing that Christ satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

First, I don't think it's the case that someone needs a perfect understanding of scripture in order to be saved.
Second, not believing in a pre-trib rapture doesn't seem synonymous with "not truly believing that Christ satisfied God's wrath".

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I didn't want to quote all of Jocund's post above, but I had 2 cents I wanted to throw in.

A dead man did rise from the dead and still not all believed.

That was as much a prophesy as it was truth. Another way in which to the great glory of God that his meticulous word is so true right down to the letter of every word. It's amazing and helps me understand and believe that no earthly mind contributed to the scriptures -- despite being told to the contrary.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That's not actually what Luke 16 says.

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." - Luke 16:29-31 KJV

Abraham said that even if his brothers did receive a message from the dead they would be unpersuaded. The rich man's concern was for sparing his brothers from Hades-fire. There is nothing in that story that says "once in hell, never saved".

My point was/is, that once the rich man was there, there was no coming out from there and there is no way anyone would be able to leave there to go and warn anyone about that place. The fact that Abraham said, they have Moses and the prophets (word of God) to warn them of going down into Sheol/Hades, infers that there is no coming out of that place once you're there.

There is no offer of salvation once a person dies in his sins.

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." - 2 Cor 5:6-8 KJV

2 Cor 5:6-8 is speaking of a willingness to leave the body behind.

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again." - Phil 1:21-26

Phil 1:21-26 is Paul speaking about mixed feelings about wanting to leave to be with Christ and to stay in order to be of use to others that are also in the flesh.

Neither of those passages cover the concept that one immediately is judged, nor that those that enter Hades are indeed themselves judged yet. Paul's remark in Phil 1 fits well with Jesus' story about Lazarus, in that a person unconvinced by scripture will also be unconvinced by the testimony of the dead.

Both of those scriptures pertain to those who believe in Christ and not the wicked. They are in reference to the spirit departing from the body at the time of death and going to be in the presence of the Lord. I said nothing in my previous post about immediately being judged.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." - Rev 7:9-17

There's nothing in that passage that mentions gentiles (unless we're look at this alongside Paul's "to the jews first and gentiles after"). I don't see anything to indicate the multitude wouldn't also join in the great tribulation (and if we're referencing Paul's line, the multitude would be included).

Oh, but there is information in the scripture which identifies this group as being Gentiles "from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues'" which would make them all Gentiles. The first group in chapter 7 is in reference to the 144,000 who Israelites 12,000 from each tribe. The second group which no man can count, are Gentiles, which is confirmed by the fact that they are from every nation, tribe, people and language. These are the great tribulation saints. Those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

(Continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

(Continued)

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor 14:50-52

To me 1 Cor 14:50-52 is talking about states after death: some sleep, some stay awake in a good state, some stay awake in a bad state (Hades), and in the end there is the judgement. I have seen some comments that this is interpreted to be part of rapture. Do you have any more on this?[/quote]

The scripture above is talking about when the Lord comes for His church. First the those who have died in Christ will be resurrected immortal and glorified and then we who are still alive will be changed/transform into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The previous scriptures that you posted have to do with when a person physically dies and their spirit departs. The last scripture you posted has to do with the Lord's appearing and our being changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. One is speaking about what happens to our spirits at the time of death and the other about what happens when the Lord comes for His church.

Let's look at the KJV:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." - Luke 21:34-36 KJV

This is a good line for guarding the heart. From what I understand, the accounting of those who are worthy comes at the reading of the book of life, which happens on judgement day.

The above is the Lord's warning for believers to not be found living according to the sinful nature when He comes, otherwise 'that day,' the Day of the Lord, will close on them like a trap. I am not a proponent of KJV only in that I study and compare all translations. The way of escape will be through when the Lord comes for His church prior to God's wrath coming upon the earth.

I'm not convinced that the hour of the trial is necessarily talking about pre-trib rapture, but it does make me think of 1 Cor 3.

As I said, the 'hour of trial' is another title for 'the Day of the Lord' the time of God's wrath, which is what the Lord is referring to which will come upon the face of the whole earth. All of those events are listed in Revelation as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." - 1 Cor 3:13-14 KJV

The above is the Bema Seat of Christ where believers are judged. Unbelievers will not be at that judgment. Also, this is not a judgement for sin, but to receive rewards or loss of reward. Our sins have already been forgiven.

Ezekiel 21:2-4

is an example of where God punishes the righteous with the wicked.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. This is understood from Abraham's conversation with the Lord before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities.

"Far be it from You to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”

So the LORD replied, “If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place.”

First, I don't think it's the case that someone needs a perfect understanding of scripture in order to be saved.
Second, not believing in a pre-trib rapture doesn't seem synonymous with "not truly believing that Christ satisfied God's wrath".

Well, I never said in any of my posts that a person needs a perfect understanding of scripture in order to be saved. However, for those who have been in Christ and are believing and teaching that the Lord is going to put His church through His wrath first and then gather them, they are not truly believing that the Lord took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. They are looking for God's wrath to come first, while we are looking for the imminent appearing of the Lord according to His promise. For those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

 

[pottersclay]

There will be some that survive the G.T. with no mark.
There will be those that are beheaded for Christ sake and are saved.
Jesus said " if a man looses his life for my name sake he shall find it.
" For there is no greater love than this that a man lay down his life for another".

This is why Satan is loosed again after the thousand yr. Reign.
Although we cannot comprehend why one would rise up against the Prince of peace after a thousand yrs of perfect peace and seeing the Restoration of the earth and nation's it does happen.

 

[Adstar]

Is.

It makes no sense to think we will go up when Jesus comes down to rule and reign with his saints (the raptured Church) clothed in white linen that they received at the Marriage supper in Heaven.

1 Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Yes God who is Jesus will bring with Him as he descends to earth the Saints.. And this very passage that you quote that Christians who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds ( rapture) to meet Him and so shall we be with the Him forever.. It does not say we are going to go to heaven after the rapture.. it simply states we are going to be with Him from that moment on,, and we shall on earth..

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Again this does not say anything about the location of the ""marriage"" And as a side note this term marriage should be seen as symbolic of us entering into our permanent eternal relationship with God..

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

These ones in white robes who will come with Jesus where killed for their testimony. They are martyrs.. These people do not take part in the rapture..

Scripture about them..

Revelation 6: KJV
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

So yes these people are special.. They have been killed because they where Christians.. They do come with Jesus out of heaven.. But again they are not taking part in the rapture that happens as Jesus arrives with them in the clouds to catch up the living Saints as He returns to earth..

 

[JaumeJ]

mONTANA, THANK YOU!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

They do come with Jesus out of heaven.. But again they are not taking part in the rapture that happens as Jesus arrives with them in the clouds to catch up the living Saints as He returns to earth..

Where 1Th4:17 is concerned, that passage says [v.16] "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP [verb] TOGETHER [adverb] with [G4862] them in the clouds, to/unto [the] meeting [noun] of the Lord in the air, and so/thus/in this manner shall we ever be with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"


Consider:

--from BibleHub: "In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[underline, sizing, and bracketed insert mine; parentheses and bold original]


--this means that the "caught up" [/snatch- / rapture-] action FOR BOTH takes place "AT THE SAME TIME"


--so that this sentence is NOT saying that we-the-'still-alive'-ones will be "caught up" TO WHERE the "dead in Christ" will have ALREADY BEEN LOCATED, thus our meeting THEM THERE, "in the air" (where they'll already be located). NO.


--the "caught up / rapture / snatch"-action itself occurs for BOTH "the DEAD IN Christ" (who shall 'rise first' before [and FOR] this "caught up / rapture / snatch"-action) AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain" ones, "AT THE SAME TIME"--which action involves our "physical" bodies (albeit "glorified / perfected" ones); IOW, "the DEAD IN Christ" will not have their glorified/perfected bodies until the time surrounding "our Rapture" event (when they "shall rise first" just prior to our being "caught up TOGETHER")

 

[Jocund]

My point was/is, that once the rich man was there, there was no coming out from there and there is no way anyone would be able to leave there to go and warn anyone about that place. The fact that Abraham said, they have Moses and the prophets (word of God) to warn them of going down into Sheol/Hades, infers that there is no coming out of that place once you're there.

Everyone in Hades eventually leaves Hades. At the final judgement everyone in Hades is drawn out, then Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:14)

There is no offer of salvation once a person dies in his sins. [...] immediately being judged.

I have yet to see scripture that supports that idea. What is stopping a person in Hades from finding salvation in Christ?

They are in reference to the spirit departing from the body at the time of death and going to be in the presence of the Lord.

The timing isn't necessarily an immediate joining with Christ, as some sleep in their death. Though from a sleeping perspective, it may seem immediate. The judgement doesn't happen until judgement day. While some sleep (Lazarus in John 11), some stay awake in a bad state (rich man in Hades), and others stay awake in a good state (e.g. Samuel).

Oh, but there is information in the scripture which identifies this group as being Gentiles "from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues'" which would make them all Gentiles. The first group in chapter 7 is in reference to the 144,000 who Israelites 12,000 from each tribe. The second group which no man can count, are Gentiles, which is confirmed by the fact that they are from every nation, tribe, people and language. These are the great tribulation saints. Those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

This depends on what you mean by gentile. If you mean non-Israelite, this also means non-Christian. There is nothing that talks about gentiles in that passage, especially if the group is from "all nations" which would include Israelites.

we who are still alive will be changed/transform into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. [...] not a proponent of KJV only

To me this seems to go with Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire at the final judgement. I'm still looking for that connection that makes this a pre-trib rapture.

What's your take on the passion translation's version of 1 Thes 4?:

"16 For the Lord himself will appear with the declaration of victory, the shout of an archangel, and the trumpet blast of God.[a] He will descend from the heavenly realm[b] and command those who are dead in Christ to rise first. 17 Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[c] in clouds[d] to have an encounter[e] with the Lord in the air,[f] and we will be forever joined with the Lord. 18 So encourage one another with these truths." - 1 Thes 4:16-18 TPT

Specifically, the c and d footnotes:

[c] 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.

[d] 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”

The above is the Bema Seat of Christ where believers are judged. Unbelievers will not be at that judgment. Also, this is not a judgement for sin, but to receive rewards or loss of reward. Our sins have already been forgiven.

Is this the trial by fire? Would the reward be the Crown of Victory?

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. This is understood from Abraham's conversation with the Lord before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities.

"Far be it from You to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”

So the LORD replied, “If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place.”

Ezekiel 21 is an example where the righteous and wicked are punished together. What God said about Sodom might have been specific to Sodom.

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." - Ezekiel 21:3 KJV

(or)

"Tell the land of Israel, ‘This is what Yahweh says: I am against you. I will take my sword out of its scabbard and kill the righteous people and the wicked people among you." - Ezekiel 21:3 NOG

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes God who is Jesus will bring with Him as he descends to earth the Saints.. And this very passage that you quote that Christians who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds ( rapture) to meet Him and so shall we be with the Him forever.. It does not say we are going to go to heaven after the rapture.. it simply states we are going to be with Him from that moment on,, and we shall on earth..

Hello Adstar,

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 combined with 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, states that both the dead and living in Christ will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. Though you are correct that this particular verse does not specifically say that we are going back to heaven, the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 does:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

1 Thess.4:16-17 is the detailed account of the Lord's promise in the scripture above. Jesus states that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which I'm sure that you would have to agree is referring to heaven. Then the Lord says that He is going there (to the Father's house) to prepare places for us (believers) and then He says "I will come back to get you and welcome you into My presence so that you may be where I am."

Where Jesus is, is in the Father's house in heaven where He went to prepare those places for us. At the appointed time, He will come back to gather the entire church dead and living, catching us up to meet Him in the air and will then take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. It's a simple matter of bringing in all of the scriptures to get the full picture. Regarding the Lord taking us back to heaven, we have Paul saying the following:

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."

"Again this does not say anything about the location of the ""marriage"" And as a side note this term marriage should be seen as symbolic of us entering into our permanent eternal relationship with God.."

The marriage of the Lamb is not and should not be seen as symbolic. Regarding this, on the evening before Christ was arrested He said, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in My Father's kingdom. He is referring to the wedding feast and it is an event that should be taken literally.

Revelation 19:6-8 sure most definitely tells us the location of where the wedding of the Lamb is going to take place. After the Rev.6-8 mentions that the "marriage of the Lamb has come" and the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean, then in verse 14 it has the bride wearing her fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven to the earth and riding on white horses. It is a simple deduction in that, if the bride is following Christ out of heaven, then she would have to already be in heaven in order to follow Him out of heaven.

These ones in white robes who will come with Jesus where killed for their testimony. They are martyrs.. These people do not take part in the rapture..

Scripture about them..

Revelation 6: KJV
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

So yes these people are special.. They have been killed because they where Christians.. They do come with Jesus out of heaven.. But again they are not taking part in the rapture that happens as Jesus arrives with them in the clouds to catch up the living Saints as He returns to earth..

You are correct in that this group in white robes from every nation, people, tribe and language do not participate in the gathering of the church and that because they will have not been believers at the time the gathering takes place. It is not until after the church is gathered and during the time period of God's wrath that these saints come to Christ. Those of this group who die during the great tribulation however, will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. The ones who do not die and make it through alive until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, will enter into the millennial kingdom with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth.[/quote]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Everyone in Hades eventually leaves Hades. At the final judgement everyone in Hades is drawn out, then Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:14)

I have yet to see scripture that supports that idea. What is stopping a person in Hades from finding salvation in Christ?

Yes, you are correct! All of the spirits who are in Hades will be released and will receive a resurrected body and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment, which is revealed in Rev.20:11-15. This judgment is specifically for the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. The church is not judged at this judgement. After they have been judged and their names not found written in the book of life, then they will be cast into the lake of fire. And as you pointed out, Death and Hades personified, will also be cast into the lake of fire at that time.

The timing isn't necessarily an immediate joining with Christ, as some sleep in their death. Though from a sleeping perspective, it may seem immediate. The judgement doesn't happen until judgement day. While some sleep (Lazarus in John 11), some stay awake in a bad state (rich man in Hades), and others stay awake in a good state (e.g. Samuel).

Those who are sleeping is in reference to the body only, as we have many other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. When it is time for the Lord to descend to gather His church, He will bring with Him the spirits of all of those who have died in Him and they will be reunited with their resurrected immortal and glorified bodies. Those who are still alive cannot be resurrected and so they will be changed immortal and glorified in a moment and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church will be in one place at one time and will be taken back to the Father's house to those places that He wen to prepare for us in the Father's house as revealed in John 14:1-3

This depends on what you mean by gentile. If you mean non-Israelite, this also means non-Christian. There is nothing that talks about gentiles in that passage, especially if the group is from "all nations" which would include Israelites.

Yes, but non-Christian i.e. unbelievers, are not going to be in that group. Therefore, we are talking about those from all nations, people, tribes and languages, as being those who believe in Christ. The wicked are not included in this group.

To me this seems to go with Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire at the final judgement. I'm still looking for that connection that makes this a pre-trib rapture.

What's your take on the passion translation's version of 1 Thes 4?:

"16 For the Lord himself will appear with the declaration of victory, the shout of an archangel, and the trumpet blast of God.[a] He will descend from the heavenly realm[b] and command those who are dead in Christ to rise first. 17 Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[c] in clouds[d] to have an encounter[e] with the Lord in the air,[f] and we will be forever joined with the Lord. 18 So encourage one another with these truths." - 1 Thes 4:16-18 TPT

Specifically, the c and d footnotes:

[c] 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.

[d] 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”

The word 'harpazo' means force suddenly exercised, to be snatched up. It is the same word used when Paul said that he was "caught up" to the third heaven. It is the same word used when Philip was "snatched away" from the eunuch and found in another city. It is the same word used when the 'Male Child' is "caught up" to God and His throne. Jesus also used it when He said, "no man can snatch them from My Father's hand." Therefore, our being gathered should not be interpreted as a figure of speech. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.

Since it is stated that the church will be "caught up" in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, then it is obvious that we going up. Then when you include John 14:1-3, it becomes obvious that after we are caught up, the Lord will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

The word 'the' is an English definite article and it's absence from the verse would not change the context.

Ezekiel 21 is an example where the righteous and wicked are punished together. What God said about Sodom might have been specific to Sodom.

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." - Ezekiel 21:3 KJV

(or)

"Tell the land of Israel, ‘This is what Yahweh says: I am against you. I will take my sword out of its scabbard and kill the righteous people and the wicked people among you." - Ezekiel 21:3 NOG

Not hardly! The inference is that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, period!

Regarding Israel, the Lord was against them because of their unfaithfulness, continuing to worship other god's and always going astray.

"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die."