50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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All three accounts are talking about the same 'events' - in the same order. (But, not in strict chronological order.) Of course, all three do not record the exact same thing in terms of the [fine] 'detail' given; however, in the overall sense of things, they are the same.
It may not seem that way - but - "I promise you" - it most definitely is.
It may not seem that way - but - "I promise you" - it most definitely is.
But this is nonsense what you are saying.
All three accounts are different.
For instance in Luke Jesus talks to the disciples publicly outside the temple,
in Mark and Matthew he is on the Mt Of Olives in private with the disciples.
If someone said they witnessed a murder, and in one account said it was in place A and in the next account gave a totally different place a mile away, they would be regarded as totally unreliable in court.
All three accounts are different.
For instance in Luke Jesus talks to the disciples publicly outside the temple,
in Mark and Matthew he is on the Mt Of Olives in private with the disciples.
If someone said they witnessed a murder, and in one account said it was in place A and in the next account gave a totally different place a mile away, they would be regarded as totally unreliable in court.
Luke 21:21 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
Jesus is clearly teaching at the Temple here.
...........37 Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38 and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.
Jesus is clearly teaching at the Temple here.
...........37 Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38 and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.
Well then, please read it AGAIN, because it certainly DOES refer TOTALLY, not "merely" to that ingular 24 hr day.
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
The bolded words PROVE that Paul was referring to the specific DAY that the Lord comes to earth.
It couldn't be any more clear.
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
The bolded words PROVE that Paul was referring to the specific DAY that the Lord comes to earth.
It couldn't be any more clear.
I'm tired of all this going "round and round". I'm sorry that you seem unable to read the verses correctly, and I cannot help out any more.
Your view IS that Paul changed gears, whether you are even aware of that. But he didn't change gears. Just as he clearly spoke about a single day when the Lord comes to earth, he continues that in 2:1-3.
Your view IS that Paul changed gears, whether you are even aware of that. But he didn't change gears. Just as he clearly spoke about a single day when the Lord comes to earth, he continues that in 2:1-3.
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JerryInBoston said:
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.
Why do you continue to push your very false claim when 2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture (gathering) with the Second Advent.
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.
Why do you continue to push your very false claim when 2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture (gathering) with the Second Advent.
JerryInBoston said:
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.
Then please prove that you DO know what you are talking about by quoting the verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
If you can't do that, then it is YOU who don't know what you're talking about.
If the Bible doesn't say it, it doesn't occur.
That the church is gone pre-opening of the seals is speculative.
Then please prove that you DO know what you are talking about by quoting the verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
If you can't do that, then it is YOU who don't know what you're talking about.
If the Bible doesn't say it, it doesn't occur.
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OK, if you call winning the battle of Armageddon as "wrath". Sure.
But there's a whole lot of wrath being poured out before He returns at the Second Advent. So that's what I think about when I read "wrath".
In fact, I think of the Second Advent as Christ ENDING the wrath.
I think of Rev 16:17 - The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
But there's a whole lot of wrath being poured out before He returns at the Second Advent. So that's what I think about when I read "wrath".
In fact, I think of the Second Advent as Christ ENDING the wrath.
I think of Rev 16:17 - The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
Here's how I've seen it (then, I welcome hearing your take on it):
Among other points of "connection" I've previously mentioned, another one I see relates in the following way... Consider: "[the DOTL time period ARRIVES] as A THIEF [G2812] *in the night*..." (1Th5:2-3)...
... so (as I see it) we should notice this:
Jhn 12:4-6 -
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot [and in Jn17:12 he is called "the son of perdition," just as is also the one known as "the man of sin"-2Th2:3c], Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was A THIEF [G2812], and had the bag [also Jn13:29], and bare what was put therein.
Like I've said in past posts, the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)--and equivalent to SEAL #1 ('bow'='deception' in many cases)], at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period, IS "the man of sin"... his "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (IN HIS TIME... i.e. for the "IN THE NIGHT" [aspect OF the DOTL] time period, which is the 7-yr Trib, so at the START of that).
My two cents cast in... = )
[note: I am not suggesting that the "man of sin" will literally be "Judas Iscariot"]
Among other points of "connection" I've previously mentioned, another one I see relates in the following way... Consider: "[the DOTL time period ARRIVES] as A THIEF [G2812] *in the night*..." (1Th5:2-3)...
... so (as I see it) we should notice this:
Jhn 12:4-6 -
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot [and in Jn17:12 he is called "the son of perdition," just as is also the one known as "the man of sin"-2Th2:3c], Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was A THIEF [G2812], and had the bag [also Jn13:29], and bare what was put therein.
Like I've said in past posts, the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)--and equivalent to SEAL #1 ('bow'='deception' in many cases)], at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period, IS "the man of sin"... his "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (IN HIS TIME... i.e. for the "IN THE NIGHT" [aspect OF the DOTL] time period, which is the 7-yr Trib, so at the START of that).
My two cents cast in... = )
[note: I am not suggesting that the "man of sin" will literally be "Judas Iscariot"]
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