2 Thessalonians 2
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It's very nicely worked out bro ... but I don't believe you are right.
We have to stick rigidly to scripture and I strongly urge that we make our case by the plain and open scriptures first and then look at the more obscure apocalyptic scriptures secondarily. The apocalyptic scriptures must fit in with the pain scriptures not the other way around.
The primary scripture must be our Lord's own statement "After the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners of heaven"
This fits 2. Thess. 2. perfectly.
I abhor totally the view that any of God's blood bought people will be left behind ... Hal Lindsay made enough dough out of that racket. On what basis would they be left behind?, they were not prepared? they were not watching and waiting? but the scripture says the dead are first to rise ... what did they do to prepare? it is a truly rubbish idea.
You agree that tribulation comes from man, persecution, so specifically the GREAT persecution will come from Antichrist who is the man of rebellion and will lead the rebellion against God. "who opposeth everything called god and all worship of god"
He is going to stamp out all religion or try to, THIS is the great tribulation. And he will have his career and the success of his career is shown by the fact that he sits in the temple at Jerusalem proclaiming that he himself is God.
But there his career ends. He is slain in the temple by the returning Lord. The church is raptured. There is no more persecutor nor any church to persecute. And the famous Day of the Lord has begun. Truly Jesus comes to reign.
We have to stick rigidly to scripture and I strongly urge that we make our case by the plain and open scriptures first and then look at the more obscure apocalyptic scriptures secondarily. The apocalyptic scriptures must fit in with the pain scriptures not the other way around.
The primary scripture must be our Lord's own statement "After the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners of heaven"
This fits 2. Thess. 2. perfectly.
I abhor totally the view that any of God's blood bought people will be left behind ... Hal Lindsay made enough dough out of that racket. On what basis would they be left behind?, they were not prepared? they were not watching and waiting? but the scripture says the dead are first to rise ... what did they do to prepare? it is a truly rubbish idea.
You agree that tribulation comes from man, persecution, so specifically the GREAT persecution will come from Antichrist who is the man of rebellion and will lead the rebellion against God. "who opposeth everything called god and all worship of god"
He is going to stamp out all religion or try to, THIS is the great tribulation. And he will have his career and the success of his career is shown by the fact that he sits in the temple at Jerusalem proclaiming that he himself is God.
But there his career ends. He is slain in the temple by the returning Lord. The church is raptured. There is no more persecutor nor any church to persecute. And the famous Day of the Lord has begun. Truly Jesus comes to reign.
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Hey Old Sage
Well they didn't ask anything but, truly, that would be their concern given the context.
As you say, by the 1st letter they knew the Messiah was coming soon, knowing the times and seasons...but we also have to take into consideration that some time passed between the sending of Paul's 1st letter to the Thessalonians and him sending his 2nd letter. Paul's introduction in his 2nd letter - which is different from the intro of the 1st letter - clues us in as to what those early believers began going through in the meantime:
- Their tribulation//persecution increased because of their faith (2 Thess 1).
- They were possibly getting conflicting information that the day of Messiah was at hand (2 Thess 2) from deceivers.
[As Acts 17 details, there was ALREADY a group of Jews in Thessalonica who would misrepresent Paul. Also later in Acts 20:29-31, before leaving Ephesus, Paul warns the Ephesians that WHEN he leaves deceivers would arise from within their flock leading them away from the truth. Paul's gospel didn't change from one group to the next.]
A few times in 2 Thess chapter 1 Paul notes that they are "troubled" and in chapter 2 encourages them not to be "shaken in mind" as to when that day would come and when they would be gathered to Messiah. The word "patience" is even used.
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
So they weren't completely firm in their resolve. They were human. And just like any human enduring persecution and deception, their faith in what they know to be true can be shaken. So, Paul's 2nd letter was meant to explain the timing of events to encourage them.
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Chapter 2 establishes that Paul is specifically speaking on "the gathering of believers to Messiah". Whether we initially assume this event is separate from the fiery wrath or not, we can be sure "the gathering" is what he's writing on in chapter 2.
Paul explains that two events must happen before the gathering:
1) The falling away
2) The man of lawlessness
...He then says "now you know" what's holding back (the gathering, in context): his (i.e. the man of lawlessness) being revealed. Because the secret lawlessness (i.e. the falling away; the 1st event) was ALREADY at work, only he (i.e. the man of lawlessness; the 2nd event) now holds things up...and he will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then he will be revealed and destroyed by Messiah's fiery appearance.
Again, Paul starts the chapter concerning "the gathering"...but by verse 8 Paul ties that context to Messiah's fiery appearance. So we're left to tie those two things together too.
Well they didn't ask anything but, truly, that would be their concern given the context.
As you say, by the 1st letter they knew the Messiah was coming soon, knowing the times and seasons...but we also have to take into consideration that some time passed between the sending of Paul's 1st letter to the Thessalonians and him sending his 2nd letter. Paul's introduction in his 2nd letter - which is different from the intro of the 1st letter - clues us in as to what those early believers began going through in the meantime:
- Their tribulation//persecution increased because of their faith (2 Thess 1).
- They were possibly getting conflicting information that the day of Messiah was at hand (2 Thess 2) from deceivers.
[As Acts 17 details, there was ALREADY a group of Jews in Thessalonica who would misrepresent Paul. Also later in Acts 20:29-31, before leaving Ephesus, Paul warns the Ephesians that WHEN he leaves deceivers would arise from within their flock leading them away from the truth. Paul's gospel didn't change from one group to the next.]
A few times in 2 Thess chapter 1 Paul notes that they are "troubled" and in chapter 2 encourages them not to be "shaken in mind" as to when that day would come and when they would be gathered to Messiah. The word "patience" is even used.
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
So they weren't completely firm in their resolve. They were human. And just like any human enduring persecution and deception, their faith in what they know to be true can be shaken. So, Paul's 2nd letter was meant to explain the timing of events to encourage them.
2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Chapter 2 establishes that Paul is specifically speaking on "the gathering of believers to Messiah". Whether we initially assume this event is separate from the fiery wrath or not, we can be sure "the gathering" is what he's writing on in chapter 2.
Paul explains that two events must happen before the gathering:
1) The falling away
2) The man of lawlessness
...He then says "now you know" what's holding back (the gathering, in context): his (i.e. the man of lawlessness) being revealed. Because the secret lawlessness (i.e. the falling away; the 1st event) was ALREADY at work, only he (i.e. the man of lawlessness; the 2nd event) now holds things up...and he will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then he will be revealed and destroyed by Messiah's fiery appearance.
Again, Paul starts the chapter concerning "the gathering"...but by verse 8 Paul ties that context to Messiah's fiery appearance. So we're left to tie those two things together too.
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Those who are deceived by the anti-Christ (even the elect if possible) will view Him as the Messiah who has come to setup the millennial kingdom.
They will believe the anti-Christ is Jesus. They know that when Jesus returns He will take vengeance on those who disobeyed the gospel of Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8.) The persecution that real Christians will receive, who reject the anti-Christ, will be viewed as justified. This will be the strong delusion experienced by those who have fallen away; I can think of no other likely candidate group than the pre-tribbers.
The strategy of Satan is basically a reversal of God's good plan. It's meant to undermine His efforts and deceive. Satan will give an unholy spirit to the beast and false prophet so they can work miracles, he will have disciples, he will have a fake millennial kingdom, he will have a fake gospel, a fake religion, and provide for his followers.
Interestingly, if you have ever studied Islamic eschatology, there's some overlap with Christian eschatology, but it's entirely reversed. The anti-Christ in Christianity is the Messiah in Islam. The Messiah in Christianity is the anti-Christ in Islam. Knowing this, I believe, is revealing.
They will believe the anti-Christ is Jesus. They know that when Jesus returns He will take vengeance on those who disobeyed the gospel of Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8.) The persecution that real Christians will receive, who reject the anti-Christ, will be viewed as justified. This will be the strong delusion experienced by those who have fallen away; I can think of no other likely candidate group than the pre-tribbers.
The strategy of Satan is basically a reversal of God's good plan. It's meant to undermine His efforts and deceive. Satan will give an unholy spirit to the beast and false prophet so they can work miracles, he will have disciples, he will have a fake millennial kingdom, he will have a fake gospel, a fake religion, and provide for his followers.
Interestingly, if you have ever studied Islamic eschatology, there's some overlap with Christian eschatology, but it's entirely reversed. The anti-Christ in Christianity is the Messiah in Islam. The Messiah in Christianity is the anti-Christ in Islam. Knowing this, I believe, is revealing.
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Okay, I understand better what you mean by 'what's the hold-up?'.
I am understanding rather that they are simply in a state of heightened anticipation - in fact Paul may have
primed the charge already - 1 Thessalonians 2
''.........to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come (phthano) upon them to the uttermost.''
I think phthano here means something like 'is anticipated'
Hence the sense of imminence, and the concomitant possibility of deception.
I am understanding rather that they are simply in a state of heightened anticipation - in fact Paul may have
primed the charge already - 1 Thessalonians 2
''.........to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come (phthano) upon them to the uttermost.''
I think phthano here means something like 'is anticipated'
Hence the sense of imminence, and the concomitant possibility of deception.
True. But fake news can't be prevented at that point as the deception was already in full swing from Paul's perspective (as soon as he left communities, per Acts 20), so the only way to counteract that fake news is to make sure believers are strong/resistant to it. It's the beginning of the falling away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that "wrath" = "the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)", correct? Thus its imminency? (I haven't been following all of the thread).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that "wrath" = "the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)", correct? Thus its imminency? (I haven't been following all of the thread).
Evmur, when viewing Matthew 24:29-31...
CONSIDER the following two issues:
1) Re: the word "Tribe / Tribes [G5443]" (i.e. Matt24:30) -
--Post #17 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4529877
--Post #578 - https://christianchat.com/threads/support-israel-yes-or-no-and-why.198879/post-4560498
--Post #2687 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4569706
--Post #2706 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4570050
2) Re: "gathered from the four winds" / "gathered from one end of the heavens [plural] to the other [plural]" (Matt24:31; i.e. gathered from the extremities, no place left out from whence they'll be gathered... and note that it is "Israel" who's been "SCATTERED" [or 'sow[n] unto the earth'], not the Church which is His body [/us]--see Lk21:24a "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS..."; see also Ezek37:11,12-14,20-23[Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11];etc etc... ; see Isa27:9,12-13[Rom11:27] as compared with Matt24:29-31...)
--Post #2780 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4558544
CONSIDER the following two issues:
1) Re: the word "Tribe / Tribes [G5443]" (i.e. Matt24:30) -
--Post #17 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4529877
--Post #578 - https://christianchat.com/threads/support-israel-yes-or-no-and-why.198879/post-4560498
--Post #2687 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4569706
--Post #2706 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4570050
2) Re: "gathered from the four winds" / "gathered from one end of the heavens [plural] to the other [plural]" (Matt24:31; i.e. gathered from the extremities, no place left out from whence they'll be gathered... and note that it is "Israel" who's been "SCATTERED" [or 'sow[n] unto the earth'], not the Church which is His body [/us]--see Lk21:24a "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS..."; see also Ezek37:11,12-14,20-23[Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11];etc etc... ; see Isa27:9,12-13[Rom11:27] as compared with Matt24:29-31...)
--Post #2780 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4558544
Not exactly.
Paul explains the two items that must be in evidence before the "false claim" [from v.2 ("____IS ALREADY HERE")] can be a true claim:
1) "the departure FIRST" (i.e. Paul's v.1 Subject; contrastly, the Grks had a word for "to fall"... "pipto"... and this is NOT that word)
2) "and the man of sin be revealed..."
The "false claim" (v.2) had/has to do with the idea "that the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]" (v.2); not that Jesus Himself is already here, but "the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD" that Paul had already spoken of in his first letter as "ARRIVING" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman, that that time period is already here... (Jesus had spoken of those... in His Olivet Discourse... and not as referring to the END of the trib years [i.e. Jesus' RETURN' to the earth point in time], but its BEGINNING [the BEGINNING of the 7-yr Trib])<--this was the essence of the "false claim" (v.2), that this TIME PERIOD was already here and they were IN IT and experiencing it. To which, Paul says, "NOT".
Paul explains the two items that must be in evidence before the "false claim" [from v.2 ("____IS ALREADY HERE")] can be a true claim:
1) "the departure FIRST" (i.e. Paul's v.1 Subject; contrastly, the Grks had a word for "to fall"... "pipto"... and this is NOT that word)
2) "and the man of sin be revealed..."
The "false claim" (v.2) had/has to do with the idea "that the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]" (v.2); not that Jesus Himself is already here, but "the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD" that Paul had already spoken of in his first letter as "ARRIVING" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman, that that time period is already here... (Jesus had spoken of those... in His Olivet Discourse... and not as referring to the END of the trib years [i.e. Jesus' RETURN' to the earth point in time], but its BEGINNING [the BEGINNING of the 7-yr Trib])<--this was the essence of the "false claim" (v.2), that this TIME PERIOD was already here and they were IN IT and experiencing it. To which, Paul says, "NOT".
lol yeah, I had to go back and read a few more posts to get up to speed.
Ok, I see where you're coming from. Well, you aren't wrong...Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD was indeed wrath. But I don't think that's the only wrath being referred to. I think he was speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Let me see if I can make a good argument for why.
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To set the foundation, recall what Paul explains in Romans...
Romans 1:16-18
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
So just like salvation is offered to all people: first to the Jew and then to the gentile...so does wrath fall upon all unrighteous people: first upon the Jew and then upon the gentile.
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Next, who is Paul talking to in his letters to Thessalonians?
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
1 Thess 1:1-4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Romans 11:5-7 [brackets mine]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So the church in Thessalonica is comprised of:
- Remnant (elected) Jews (who believe the gospel)
- Believing Gentiles (grafted in)
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...So when we're reading these letters the audience isn't exclusively gentiles OR jews, and I think the language bears this out in certain chapters. For example, in 1 Thess 2:14-17.
1 Thess 2:14-17
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous.
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Now, notice how in chapter 4 Paul implores the mixed audience of believers not to behave as the Gentiles do. The unbelieving Gentiles are the point of comparison and remain so when we begin chapter 5.
1 Thess 4:1-18
Furthermore, then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 5:1-5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
If chapter markings didn't exist in the original text, who are the "they" & "them" being referred to here? Well, if we're literal then it's the gentiles who say peace and safety as they're the ones Paul was just warning his audience against living as.
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So in 1 Thess 2, wrath (i.e. destruction) comes upon the Jew for their sins...and in 1 Thess 5, sudden destruction (i.e. wrath) comes upon Gentile for living Godless lives.
2 Thess 2:8 [brackets mine]
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God [Gentiles?], and that obey not [Jews?] the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 2:12 [brackets mine]
12 For as many as have sinned without law [Gentile?] shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law [Jew?] shall be judged by the law;
Ok, I see where you're coming from. Well, you aren't wrong...Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD was indeed wrath. But I don't think that's the only wrath being referred to. I think he was speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Let me see if I can make a good argument for why.
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To set the foundation, recall what Paul explains in Romans...
Romans 1:16-18
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
So just like salvation is offered to all people: first to the Jew and then to the gentile...so does wrath fall upon all unrighteous people: first upon the Jew and then upon the gentile.
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Next, who is Paul talking to in his letters to Thessalonians?
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
1 Thess 1:1-4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Romans 11:5-7 [brackets mine]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So the church in Thessalonica is comprised of:
- Remnant (elected) Jews (who believe the gospel)
- Believing Gentiles (grafted in)
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...So when we're reading these letters the audience isn't exclusively gentiles OR jews, and I think the language bears this out in certain chapters. For example, in 1 Thess 2:14-17.
1 Thess 2:14-17
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous.
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Now, notice how in chapter 4 Paul implores the mixed audience of believers not to behave as the Gentiles do. The unbelieving Gentiles are the point of comparison and remain so when we begin chapter 5.
1 Thess 4:1-18
Furthermore, then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 5:1-5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
If chapter markings didn't exist in the original text, who are the "they" & "them" being referred to here? Well, if we're literal then it's the gentiles who say peace and safety as they're the ones Paul was just warning his audience against living as.
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So in 1 Thess 2, wrath (i.e. destruction) comes upon the Jew for their sins...and in 1 Thess 5, sudden destruction (i.e. wrath) comes upon Gentile for living Godless lives.
2 Thess 2:8 [brackets mine]
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God [Gentiles?], and that obey not [Jews?] the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 2:12 [brackets mine]
12 For as many as have sinned without law [Gentile?] shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law [Jew?] shall be judged by the law;
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Well, I use the phrase "falling away" because it's easier when discussing, but yes the word is "apostasia" which is a compound word of "apo" ("away from") and "stasis" (standing), to mean "drawn away from an initial state/position". Acts 20:29 uses a similar word to apostasia, "apospan" when referring to the actual deceivers who would appear within the flock to actively lead believers away from the truth.
So one word is active while the other word is passive.
Secondly, 2 Thess 2:1 begins with "concerning [ὑπὲρ; hyper] the coming of the lord and our gathering..." giving us the context of what immediately follows. Verse 8 then mentions the Lord's coming. So everything in between must be what happens before the coming of the Lord and our gathering.
So one word is active while the other word is passive.
Secondly, 2 Thess 2:1 begins with "concerning [ὑπὲρ; hyper] the coming of the lord and our gathering..." giving us the context of what immediately follows. Verse 8 then mentions the Lord's coming. So everything in between must be what happens before the coming of the Lord and our gathering.
Where does Acts 20:29 use that ^ word (apospan)... or to refer to the deceivers??
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there...
)
Are you referring to a difference verse, perhaps??
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there...
)Are you referring to a difference verse, perhaps??
Where does Acts 20:29 use that ^ word (apospan)... or to refer to the deceivers??
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there... )
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there...
)
Acts 20:30 V-PNA [active]
GRK: διεστραμμένα τοῦ ἀποσπᾷν τοὺς μαθητὰς
NAS: perverse things, to draw away the disciples
KJV: perverse things, to draw away disciples
INT: perverse things to draw away the disciples
Acts 21:1 V-APP-AMP [passive]
GRK: ἀναχθῆναι ἡμᾶς ἀποσπασθέντας ἀπ' αὐτῶν
NAS: When we had parted from them and had set sail,
KJV: that after we were gotten from them,
INT: sailed we having drawn away from them
Where does Acts 20:29 use that ^ word (apospan)... or to refer to the deceivers??
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there... )
Are you referring to a difference verse, perhaps??
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/20-29.htm
I see in that verse where "aphixin / aphixis [G867]" [apo heko] ("after the DEPARTURE [G867] of me/Paul"... NOT the deceivers he's getting ready to reference there...
)Are you referring to a difference verse, perhaps??
I was going by memory. Yeah, the statement begins at verse 29 but the word is in verse 30:
^ nothing in this second example (of two verses) refers to anything like "a falling away" FROM THE FAITH, but rather a geographical/spatial departing / RELOCATION
[re: the "related" word you're pointing out]
[re: the "related" word you're pointing out]
Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away [ἀποσπᾶν ; Apospan #645] disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears
Surely Paul wasn't warning them night and day with tears - for 3 years - that others would arise among them to draw them away to another... geographical LOCATION
!! lol C'mon.-
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Surely Paul wasn't warning them night and day with tears - for 3 years - that others would arise among them to draw them away to another... geographical LOCATION !! lol C'mon.
!! lol C'mon.
(let's be consistent, here)
In post #121,page 7 I gave you the reasoning behind why it is not captive to the first century ad. It's as if everyone sees this as black or white,left or right in this as though it can only be either of the two,, either one form or another of preterism or if not then it has to be pre trib. rapture dispensationism. Neither of the two are correct but without reading those 22 chapters who will know....