Postrib vs Dispy

[randyk]

I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvation of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.

Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.

But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.

Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.

The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand no in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

 

[Artios1]

What do you do with the following scripture?


II Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words falling away first properly translated would be “a drawing out from among” or “a departure first” from the Greek words He apostasia.


I Thessalonians 1:10
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

To name a few………..


When Christ returns us the Body of Christ 1Th 4:17 He will not come to the earth …we will meet him in the air.

The gathering together is not called the resurrection In 2Th 2:1 it is called “our gathering together unto Him” this portion of the parousia is not referred to as the resurrection, because not all will be dead when Christ returns for the Church of the Body.

 

[randyk]

What do you do with the following scripture?


II Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words falling away first properly translated would be “a drawing out from among” or “a departure first” from the Greek words He apostasia.

"Apostasia" means, in context, to depart from the faith. It is a reference back to Dan 7, where the Little Horn, the "Man of Sin," boasts before God and is found wanting before the tribunal of God. He wrests control of the old Roman Empire, conquering 3 countries, and then assuming imperial control over 10 nations and 7 leaders of those nations. Since Europe has been Christian through the centuries, we can see today how Europe is being drawn back into the old pagan tradition of ancient Rome. This is an "apostasia."

I Thessalonians 1:10
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

When we accepted Christ as our Savior, we were instantly delivered from the wrath to come, which is banishment into Outer Darkness, into Eternal Punishment. There is an aspect to God's wrath poured out in the last days, when Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist and his Army. And some of this wrath is expressed in the Battle of Armageddon, and in the deficiencies God causes those who follow Antichrist to experience.

Christians do go through troubles in this world brought on by the wicked. They are punished with environmental disasters, wars, natural disasters, etc. And we have to experience the same side effects. However, this wrath is poured out on the wicked. When we experience the side effects, we are nothing more than collateral damage, just as Jesus experienced "friendly fire" from God when He sought to punish the wicked Jews.

Romans 5:9
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

To name a few………..


When Christ returns us the Body of Christ 1Th 4:17 He will not come to the earth …we will meet him in the air.

The gathering together is not called the resurrection In 2Th 2:1 it is called “our gathering together unto Him” this portion of the parousia is not referred to as the resurrection, because not all will be dead when Christ returns for the Church of the Body.

The Scriptures depict one single Coming of the Son of Man, when he comes to defeat the Antichrist, save his people, and establish his Kingdom. When he begins his descent from the sky, he will first gather the saints to him in the clouds. He will first gather the departed spirits, and then he will gather the remaining living saints on earth. This will all take place in a split second with the purpose of giving them new heavenly bodies.

Then Christ will return together with his saints and angels to establish justice on the earth. The mortal earth will continue to exist for another thousand years, with the glorified saints exercising judgment over the earth to ensure spiritual evil no longer reigns there for this length of time.

 

[AandW]

I posted this in another thread but it fits perfectly in this one as well:

I don't believe that Believers will actually suffer during the Tribulation in proportion to how those who have denied God will. Satan will [Never} have power over the body of Christ before/during/after his minimal reign. Grant it, there may be casualties, but it's not going to be a world wide suffering. The only dilemma will be food, medical, banking, etc because we will be in hiding and never take the [Mark]. But I believe we will thrive and still be worshiping the One True God and He will be continually supplying our needs. And, He will shorten the days for our sake. But [Nowhere] does it speak of 2 Comings by Christ. That literally is as UN-BIBLICAL as it gets!

 

[Runningman]

What do you do with the following scripture?


II Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words falling away first properly translated would be “a drawing out from among” or “a departure first” from the Greek words He apostasia.


I Thessalonians 1:10
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

To name a few………..


When Christ returns us the Body of Christ 1Th 4:17 He will not come to the earth …we will meet him in the air.

The gathering together is not called the resurrection In 2Th 2:1 it is called “our gathering together unto Him” this portion of the parousia is not referred to as the resurrection, because not all will be dead when Christ returns for the Church of the Body.

Biggest problem with that is the Greek translates it differently. Secondly, it doesn't fit the context of the chapter. If we pretend for a moment that that church departs in a rapture pre-trib then examine how that fits into the context it doesn't work.

The departure of the church occurs when Christ returns. Christ returns when He's ready to destroy the man of sin (anti-Christ) with the brightness of His coming. That would place the departure of the church immediately after the tribulation when Christ returns because He comes to end the tribulation.

There is not a comfortable way to shoehorn a pre-trib rapture anywhere into scripture.

 

[Jocund]

Not all of Israel are Israel. The seed of the promise is Christ. Only those in Christ have Abraham's promise.

^ That is the scriptural perspective. I don't know what you are basing your perspective in. I suggest you read through the NT to understand what that means. Paul specifically breaks down how the promise was not broken by not being granted to nonChristians.

 

[crossnote]

Christian nations?
In Scripture the word nations is another word for Gentiles, not political entities with boundaries.

 

[randyk]

Christian nations?
In Scripture the word nations is another word for Gentiles, not political entities with boundaries.

Christian nations?
In Scripture the word nations is another word for Gentiles, not political entities with boundaries.

The word "nations" is descriptive of politically-organized ethnic groups, as today. It is a definition, not controlled by any particular environment in history.

What you're talking about is the biblical perspective in the OT era, where Israel was viewed as being the exclusive possessors of legitimate religious truth, while all other nations were basically "pagans."

However, it was foretold and promised in the OT that Abraham would eventually obtain a posterity of faith among the nations. So the idea that they must always be "pagan Gentiles" is not true.

 

[crossnote]

So the idea that they must always be "pagan Gentiles" is not true.

I don't believe anyone said or inferred that.
Today, (during this Church age) there is no such thing as National salvation (as you referred to in your OP). Rather God is gathering to Himself a New Creation/New Man (Eph 2:15) from every kindred, tribe and nation which includes Jew and Gentile (Rev 5:9). But there will be a time coming shortly, where God will deal mainly with the Jews taking them through Jacob's Trouble and saving a remnant.
What % of the population needs to be (truly) converted before it is a "Christian Nation"? I believe it is always low if you don't count the 'cultural' Christians

 

[FreeGrace2]

But [Nowhere] does it speak of 2 Comings by Christ. That literally is as UN-BIBLICAL as it gets!

How many times does the Bible prophesy about Jesus Christ coming to earth?

 

[crossnote]

How many times does the Bible prophesy about Jesus Christ coming to earth?

He comes to earth twice. The first time was a little over 2000 years ago. The 2nd time He comes with His saints to judge the earth. In the rapture, He doesn't come to earth, but believers go to Him.

 

[randyk]

I don't believe anyone said or inferred that.
Today, (during this Church age) there is no such thing as National salvation (as you referred to in your OP). Rather God is gathering to Himself a New Creation/New Man (Eph 2:15) from every kindred, tribe and nation which includes Jew and Gentile (Rev 5:9). But there will be a time coming shortly, where God will deal mainly with the Jews taking them through Jacob's Trouble and saving a remnant.
What % of the population needs to be (truly) converted before it is a "Christian Nation"? I believe it is always low if you don't count the 'cultural' Christians

Good question, and I apologize if I misconstrued what you mean to say. I do indeed believe in the concept of "national salvation." It isn't a matter of individual salvation, but rather, of the salvaging of an entire political unit, encompassing a particular ethnicity, self-sufficient and able to defend itself.

In order to preserve the "nation," God has taught us that He judges the moral worth of the nation, to determine if it is worth keeping. Israel was made to be the original profile of that. Israel's failure by no means indicated that God failed in that project or has given up on that project.

Entry into the NT period did not indicate an end to God's promises and ways of doing things. The major thing that changed was that the predicted atonement for sin got accomplished in Christ, requiring that preliminary means of temporary atonement were no longer required.

For a nation to be a valid Christian nation, and one that is worth keeping, it should follow the pattern of Israel in the OT era. When they were relatively obedient as a people to God's Law, then God blessed them. When they fell into idolatry, they scarcely could be called "God's People" any longer.

By definition, a "Christian nation" is one in which a large enough majority of the population exists to sustain a Christian leadership, politically. We see Christian constitutions set up when the people are considered Christian enough to support their political leaders who have passed these laws and have chosen them to be for the people.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He comes to earth twice. The first time was a little over 2000 years ago. The 2nd time He comes with His saints to judge the earth. In the rapture, He doesn't come to earth, but believers go to Him.

I asked AandW because his post seemed to suggest that Jesus comes only once. He said: "But [Nowhere] does it speak of 2 Comings by Christ. That literally is as UN-BIBLICAL as it gets!"

I know there are 2. Both are prophesied.

As a posttribber (former pretribber) do you have any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

 

[Nehemiah6]

As a posttribber (former pretribber) do you have any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Why don't you start with John 14:1-3 and thoroughly digest it? This passage is generally (and blithely) ignored.

 

[crossnote]

Good question, and I apologize if I misconstrued what you mean to say. I do indeed believe in the concept of "national salvation." It isn't a matter of individual salvation, but rather, of the salvaging of an entire political unit, encompassing a particular ethnicity, self-sufficient and able to defend itself.

1.In order to preserve the "nation," God has taught us that He judges the moral worth of the nation, to determine if it is worth keeping. Israel was made to be the original profile of that. Israel's failure by no means indicated that God failed in that project or has given up on that project.

2.Entry into the NT period did not indicate an end to God's promises and ways of doing things. The major thing that changed was that the predicted atonement for sin got accomplished in Christ, requiring that preliminary means of temporary atonement were no longer required.

3.For a nation to be a valid Christian nation, and one that is worth keeping, it should follow the pattern of Israel in the OT era. When they were relatively obedient as a people to God's Law, then God blessed them. When they fell into idolatry, they scarcely could be called "God's People" any longer.

4.By definition, a "Christian nation" is one in which a large enough majority of the population exists to sustain a Christian leadership, politically. We see Christian constitutions set up when the people are considered Christian enough to support their political leaders who have passed these laws and have chosen them to be for the people.

A few points,
1.All have sinned and ONLY one Person (not a Nation) is worthy.
2.There was a dramatic shift in Covenants, from Conditional to Unconditional.
3. There will be no obedience until there is a change of heart through the New Birth.
4. Agreed but that takes major revival as this nation experienced in the 1st and 2nd Awakening. Again, new hearts molded after God's image creates that type of nation.

 

[crossnote]

As a posttribber (former pretribber) do you have any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

John 14:1-3 (NASB) "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[crossnote]

Why don't you start with John 14:1-3 and thoroughly digest it? This passage is generally (and blithely) ignored.

I didn't see this until I posted the above. Sorry for the dup.

 

[Artios1]

But [Nowhere] does it speak of 2 Comings by Christ. That literally is as UN-BIBLICAL as it gets!

Actually, I can think of many more things that are much more um-biblical…….....................

In answer to your comment …. It does in Thessalonians…. but if you are looking for prophecy or something from the gospels that would mention the return of Christ for the Church of God in this grace administration….you will not find it…it’s not there, and for good reason.

This grace administration we are in was the mystery of the one body kept hidden with God and not revealed until Paul received it by revelation. Everything in the gospels deals with what you are referring to …when He comes back as King of Kings.

I will be more specific in what I am speaking of, but it may not be until Monday as I am heading out tonight for an extended weekend. ….But if you don’t hear from me on Monday it could mean that Christ returned …………..

 

[Artios1]

Biggest problem with that is the Greek translates it differently. Secondly, it doesn't fit the context of the chapter. If we pretend for a moment that that church departs in a rapture pre-trib then examine how that fits into the context it doesn't work.

The departure of the church occurs when Christ returns. Christ returns when He's ready to destroy the man of sin (anti-Christ) with the brightness of His coming. That would place the departure of the church immediately after the tribulation when Christ returns because He comes to end the tribulation.

There is not a comfortable way to shoehorn a pre-trib rapture anywhere into scripture.

I believe the Greek translation is closer to “a defection” if I remember right. But I am somewhat stumped as to why you think it doesn’t fit. I have been over and over 2 Thessalonians a thousand times ……………ok twice ………..just kidding. But to me it is absolutely crystal clear. …and actually, someone else stated it was “to depart from the faith” which to me… really doesn’t fit with the context… But as I stated in my previous post…. I am out of here for the weekend… and I will elaborate more when I return.

 

[randyk]

A few points,
1.All have sinned and ONLY one Person (not a Nation) is worthy.
2.There was a dramatic shift in Covenants, from Conditional to Unconditional.
3. There will be no obedience until there is a change of heart through the New Birth.
4. Agreed but that takes major revival as this nation experienced in the 1st and 2nd Awakening. Again, new hearts molded after God's image creates that type of nation.

Yes, only Christ is worthy of obtaining final atonement for our sin. But we do indeed provide worth to God in the form of obedience. This does not require perfection, since Christ covers our sins.

Under the Old Covenant, Israel was blessed as a nation when they as a nation largely obeyed God, and remained faithful to their God. They were cursed when the nation allowed itself to be leavened with idolatry and wickedness.

The same reality is true under the New Covenant. If we obey God we will be found to be pleasing to Him, and He will bless us as He sees fit. If our whole nation obeys God for the most part, the nation will be unbelievably blessed, following tests to our faith. But what nations are thoroughly Christian today?

The original covenant given to Abraham was unconditional. Paul said it was a divine promise, which can't be broken--not even with the Law being attached to it. So I call the Law of Moses a *temporary covenant.* And I call Christ's covenant an "eternal covenant."

The carnal man can obey God periodically, by submitting to God's spiritual laws. But the purpose of rebirth is to have us fix our obedience to the Spirit in perpetuity, rather than periodically.

I agree on your last point, that national revival would be necessary to restore fallen Christian nations in the West. The fact that it has happened gives one hope. But who knows how close we are to the Antichrist?