2 Thessalonians 2

[iamsoandso]

Hi IASAS,
You jumped from Thessalonians onto the beast (and then to Rome).
I simply couldn't follow the leap from Thessalonians to the beast who is not in view in Thessalonians.

That's okay for now I should have remembered that you said you had not studied the Revelation to any acceptable depth in post #126 and this may be why your not seeing the connection. It's probably best if I said no more of the matter until you have had the opportunity to do so so God bless you until then.

 

[Jackson123]

--v.1 is speaking about Jesus' "PRESENCE / parousia" at the "MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (TO where He will have "descend[ed]") and "OUR" [/ the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] gathering-together / episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM, THERE (where NO ONE ELSE but US will be in His "PRESENCE" THERE)<---THAT is NOT "His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 point in time (when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth "SHALL SEE HIM")

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

1.So you believe verse one is not second coming am I correct?
2. And you believe Verse one already happen, am I correct?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2. And you believe Verse one already happen, am I correct?

NO.

Verse 1 speaks of "our Rapture" event that takes place "IN THE AIR" (when WE are "caught up... TO the MEETING OF THE LORD *in the air*") and pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]").

It has NOT taken place yet. (We are still here, still existing on the earth, see. We've not yet be "CAUGHT UP," nor have been given our "glorified" bodies, which will occur at that time.)



[btw, verse 1 is not the ONLY reference Paul makes to THAT ^ event, in this passage/context... and in his wider context of THESE TWO EPISTLES... He references this *event* something like 8-9 times, using various terms and phrases]

 

[Jackson123]

btw, verse 1 is not the ONLY reference Paul makes to THAT ^ event, in this passage/context... and in his wider context of THESE TWO EPISTLES... He references this *event* something like 8-9 times, using various terms and phrases]

So verse 1 talking about rapture but not second coming?

And you say wider context, wider than rapture? What is it?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And you say wider context, wider than rapture? What is it?

No. By the phrase "WIDER CONTEXT" I meant, BOTH THESSALONIANS EPISTLES... and the point I was making about THAT, is that Paul refers to our Rapture event MORE THAN JUST in 2Th2:1 and in MORE THAN JUST 1Th4:17, but something like EIGHT TIMES he talks about it.


[our Rapture event is ONE SINGULAR EVENT that occurs at ONE POINT IN TIME (pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")... it has not happened yet]

 

[Yahshua]

Acts clearly describes Paul going to synagogues and teaching initially in the synagogues.
He says that this was necessary. Why was it necessary?

I think there's a more simple explanation as to why it's necessary. It's because the gospel of salvation is to the Jew first.


Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”


Jews are offered the living bread (Messiah) first. Paul went to synagogues to preach the gospel because who else would be primed to hear about Messiah other than those familiar with the scriptures? That's where the scriptures were taught every Sabbath day.

The law (defining what sin is) is the schoolmaster that leads to Christ (salvation from sin), and as such, Paul used the scriptures to reason who the Messiah is. Christ doesn't make sense to anyone who's not familiar with the basics, so the preaching of Him to those not familiar with the scriptures was taken as babbling about "some strange new god" (Acts 17:16-21).

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I don't think all other religions weren't illegal yet during the time of Paul's ministry. Acts details evidence of different pagan temples still erected as well as people mistaking Paul and Barnabas for pagan gods at times. Acts 17 even explains that idolatry was still strong in Athens.

Rubbish. We are not judged by the Law. We are under grace.
Israel was under the law and was judged by the Law.
This is basic basic stuff.

I don't really know how to respond to this without getting into a further side discussion. I was just quoting what Paul said in Romans 2:12-16. The entire chapter very eloquently explains how the Almighty will judge all mankind (Jew & Gentile).

It does make me curious as to what you believe the "man of lawlessness" does (or did if you believe he's past tense) or what the mystery of lawlessness is/was all about with regard to 2 Thessalonians 2. What truth would or had deceivers drawn believers away from, from your perspective?

 

[GaryA]

My understanding is that Paul's referencing the "who / who / who" ("whose / who / whom") in 2Th2:9a, 4, 8b, he is pointedly referencing the "he / he / he" of Dan9:27a / b / c [26b] (i.e. SEVEN YEARS'-worth of that person... "the prince THAT SHALL COME" [distinct from the One in v.25,26a])

The "he / he / he" is Jesus and not the 'prince' in verse 26b.

There is no 7-trib in Daniel 9:24-27.

Nor is there any antichrist figure.

Please read:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[GaryA]

Paul not mention 7 year tribulation, but man of din

And man of sin will be reveal at 7 years tribulation rever from Dan and revelation 13

Are you "so sure" that Daniel and Revelation speak of a 7-year tribulation?

 

[GaryA]

There is no 7-trib in Daniel 9:24-27.

7-year trib

 

[OldSage]

I think there's a more simple explanation as to why it's necessary. It's because the gospel of salvation is to the Jew first.


Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”


Jews are offered the living bread (Messiah) first. Paul went to synagogues to preach the gospel because who else would be primed to hear about Messiah other than those familiar with the scriptures? That's where the scriptures were taught every Sabbath day.

The law (defining what sin is) is the schoolmaster that leads to Christ (salvation from sin), and as such, Paul used the scriptures to reason who the Messiah is. Christ doesn't make sense to anyone who's not familiar with the basics, so the preaching of Him to those not familiar with the scriptures was taken as babbling about "some strange new god" (Acts 17:16-21).

------

I don't think all other religions weren't illegal yet during the time of Paul's ministry. Acts details evidence of different pagan temples still erected as well as people mistaking Paul and Barnabas for pagan gods at times. Acts 17 even explains that idolatry was still strong in Athens.




I don't really know how to respond to this without getting into a further side discussion. I was just quoting what Paul said in Romans 2:12-16. The entire chapter very eloquently explains how the Almighty will judge all mankind (Jew & Gentile).

It does make me curious as to what you believe the "man of lawlessness" does (or did if you believe he's past tense) or what the mystery of lawlessness is/was all about with regard to 2 Thessalonians 2. What truth would or had deceivers drawn believers away from, from your perspective?

Hi Yahshua,

In 2T2 the action is centred on the Temple. As I've said elsewhere, I think the Man Of Lawlessness was Eleazar The Zealot who murdered the High Priest Ananias, took over the Temple precinct, destroyed the order of service, and ended the peace offering to Caesar. This was insane and of course totally lawless at every level, and as Josephus says, was the red rag which made the destruction of Judea inevitable.

------------------------

Yes I would agree that the necessity is God-ordained. (It's a while since I studied it to be honest).
The necessity is that Jesus came to Israel, and therefore all Israelites, Jews, by covenant, had the right to hear the gospel. But don't forget also that Christ was the king of Israel and this posed a direct challenge to Caesar's authority.

----------------------

Romans needs to be studied. It is quite a difficult book. Paul was talking about Israel though, not everyone, specifically Israel, Israel, Israel. I cannot stress this enough. All scriptural references need to be understood - Paul doesn't quote the scriptures to fill up space.

Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[OldSage]

^ I already covered that in the other thread (with you, I believe), where I'd supplied (among other passages):

Matt23 -

38 Behold, your house IS LEFT UNTO you desolate. [said to "Jerusalem," per the preceding verse]

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, TILL ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[parallel some similar things said in OT references, as I pointed out in those other threads...]




[not to mention, what Jesus SAID on the very day that the "69 Wks [total]" were concluded: Luke 19:41-44 "but NOW they are HID from thine eyes" ("the city" that He wept over, in this context; same Subject that the Dan9:24-27 covers)]

It is not a source of self-congratulation to be wrong in multiple threads TDW.
So, let's go through this, here and now. Let's clear up all the confusion you bring.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)...

Firstly you will notice that Jesus refers to something 'spoken' by Daniel.

The KJV translates rheo in the following manner: speak (12x), say, speak of (3x), command (1x), make (1x).

Clearly 'rheo' means that Daniel spoke something.
There are several written references to the abomination of desolation(s),
but none are made by Daniel. They are by the Saint(8), Gabriel(9), and Jesus-the Man Clothed In Linen(12).

So now we can go to Daniel 9, where Daniel speaks a long and famous prayer.

4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said

and then we must look for a reference to the Desolation.

17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

So now we see that Daniel spoke about the destruction of the Temple.
Let's go back to Matthew 24.

desolation = the destruction of the Temple

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination related to the destruction of the Temple, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

There. It is relatively simple.
Matthew of course wrote his gospel around AD40 in Aramaic for the Jews.
Therefore he is necessarily very sparing with details here.
Luke of course makes it a lot clearer.
But if we understand Roman Jewish history, then we will easily see that the Roman Eagle = Zeus
and was a great abomination that at one time even caused a huge revolt in Caesarea.

 

[OldSage]

That's okay for now I should have remembered that you said you had not studied the Revelation to any acceptable depth in post #126 and this may be why your not seeing the connection. It's probably best if I said no more of the matter until you have had the opportunity to do so so God bless you until then.

Hi Yasos,

There seems to me no reason though to conflate Revelation with Thessalonians.
Revelation is a post-Temple prophecy for the Church, and to my knowledge
has nothing to do with the past events of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jackson123 said:
2. And you believe Verse one (2 Thess 2:1) already happen, am I correct?

NO.

Verse 1 speaks of "our Rapture" event that takes place "IN THE AIR" (when WE are "caught up... TO the MEETING OF THE LORD *in the air*") and pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]").

Why do you leave out ALL the OT saints?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

By claiming that the rapture is only for "the Church" or "His Body" you are excluding ALL the OT saints, and without biblical support.

Paul's writing clearly includes ALL believers, both OT and NT, in this verse. "those who belong to Him". That means all believers.

 

[posthuman]

Ok but the Jews will not be raptured.

The church is gathered to meet the returning Lord in the clouds but the Jews are gathered to their homeland but whether the church or the Jews we are gathered for the same purpose, to save and protect them from the out pouring of God's wrath upon the ungodly.

What if their true homeland is 'Jerusalem above, which is free'?

 

[posthuman]

I think the Man Of Lawlessness was Eleazar The Zealot who murdered the High Priest Ananias, took over the Temple precinct, destroyed the order of service, and ended the peace offering to Caesar.

I think it's Judas, 'the son of perdition,' who 'went to his own place' and who is the only person in all of history of whom it is said, 'Satan entered him'

IMO he will return, when Christ gives Satan the key to where he is kept.

 

[Jackson123]

Are you "so sure" that Daniel and Revelation speak of a 7-year tribulation?

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is 3 1/2 years I will continue with more when I am back from work

 

[Jackson123]

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is 3 1/2 years I will continue with more when I am back from work

Daniel9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One week figurative for 7 years

 

[Evmur]

Why do you think that 2T2 is futuristic Evmur?
I am curious.
Before even drilling down on the meaning, I would challenge
you first to read the two letters and note every time Paul talks of something imminent.

They have not happened

Nobody has sat in the temple claiming himself to be God and Jesus has not come in the clouds and the church did not go to meet Him.

 

[OldSage]

They have not happened

Nobody has sat in the temple claiming himself to be God and Jesus has not come in the clouds and the church did not go to meet Him.

You are making this stuff up Evmur.
There are no clouds and the church in the clouds in 2T2.
That is your fiction, or a fiction you picked up somewhere.

He sojourns in the Temple acting as though he were God.
Precisely what Eleazar did. He moved into the Temple with his troops,
that is to say he LIVED in the Temple, so literally he carried on as though he was God,
since the Temple is God's House.
Think of a squatter acting as though he is the proprietor, if that helps.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, let's go through this, here and now. Let's clear up all the confusion you bring.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)...
Firstly you will notice that Jesus refers to something 'spoken' by Daniel.
Clearly 'rheo' means that Daniel spoke something.

Disagree.


Not buyin' it (I think you're reaching!), and here's why...


Matthew 24:15 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Daniel the prophet" ... which can legit refer to [Daniel writing] "what he [/someone else] SAID" (but via Daniel)... and we ("AD era" ppl) only know about what was said (that Daniel heard / witnessed) coz it's written via Daniel's book ... just as in the following examples...



--Matthew 2:17-18 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Jeremiah the prophet"... where Jeremiah 31:15 spells out "this is what the LORD says." (i.e. another besides Jeremiah himself);



--Matthew 3:3 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Isaiah the prophet..." ... where Isaiah 40:3[5] spells out, "A voice of one calling..." (then quoting another's words), and "5... the mouth of the LORD hath spoken." (i.e. another besides Isaiah himself);



--Acts 2:16-17 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] the prophet Joel:..." ... where Joel 2:28-32 spells out, "And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. [...]" and where practically the entire chapter is "what he [/someone else] says" (namely, the LORD; not Joel himself)



Let the readers judge. = )