Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[Mark47Oz]

Your right that a prevalence in homosexuality had preceded the collapse of many civilizations... It's not to say it is THE reason why they fell. I believe it is a combination of things...

I haven't gone through this thread and I can only imagine the response some people might have given to irritate you.
I was saying to Unearthed above that it's the sin that we ought to hate. Not the sinner. We are all sinners and it's repentance that saves us.

I tried to imagine the complexity if your innate attraction to the same sex... But u can never really understand without experiencing it yourself...

Is it comparable to addiction? I have a good understanding of addiction. I'm asked "why don't you just stop" and it irritates me cos I don't have an answer to it. Like Paul in Romans 7 I keep doing what I don't want to do...

The message that God hates gay people is false. I agree. Just like the sick needs the doctor so we all need Christ for we are all sinners... Some people believe they are free from sin yet I see them treating people like animals...

As for the bigger problem in the world I think I know what you mean but please elaborate if u wish. The world has many big problems of many kinds

This is getting wayyyyyy off topic, but for some 500 years now, this point in time has been talked about in our church (RCC)

We are on the precipice of an event that will rock the entire planet. It will be the biggest act of grace since Jesus himself walked the earth. When it happens we will all know how God sees us. After this it will be our last chance to change before the rise of the Antichrist and the great tribulation.

I can tell you with reasonable certainty that the wheels were put into motion sometime around the end of WW2 and that a century of Satan's rule began. It will culminate in the rising of the Antichrist.

The rise of gay people coincides with the age of human knowledge and reasoning. Computers were invented in WW2. Computers have allowed the explosion of knowledge. Knowledge is available to anyone on the planet with a phone in their hand. Something never seen before anytime in history. And what did Eve gain after eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden? It was knowledge. Knowledge without wisdom. And that is the same problem we face today. Knowledge without wisdom.

This possibly sounds a little unhinged, i have not explained it very well at all. It really needs it's own thread.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hi PC123. I said I was done with this thread, but I will come back to answer this for you.

Yes I 100% agree with you. It is not offensive at all to suggest that a degree of morality should apply to homosexual behaviour. This might sound like an oxymoron, but the values of decency, respect and monogamy can reduce the offense it causes others. (Marriage is a step too far though) And sex is an adult thing. Let children be children. Part of the big problem with this world is they are growing up far too fast.

Gay people are but a symptom of a much bigger problem going on in the world right now. There is so so much I could say about the state that affect myself and hundreds of millions of others around the world but I will point out a fact that should give you a hint. Gay people have been around since the earliest days of mankind. But there are very few times in history when gay people were so prominent in society. And every time it preceded a great downfall.

The only way out of this mess is to evangelise and convert hearts to love Jesus. The Gay community contains people who are not beyond reach. But this message of God hates gay people and gay people can never be Christian is only keeping people separated form the Salvation they deserve.

Hey brother, hope you're doing well! This is the point a couple of us have tried to make in this thread. If you look up old posts on this subject I was very dogmatic, hard and fast with the "love the sinner hate the sin" mantra. But as I told you, I have lately felt convicted of that. There is no other sin where we say "well, love the sinner, not the sin". In no way are you flaunting that you're gay. You've been open and honest in a way that no one else has been in this thread. None of us have laid bare our private lives, our struggles and failures except maybe one who said they struggled in the past.

It is unreal to me that we in the church have the idea that homosexuals are the only group that must clean themselves up first before they come through the church doors. Maybe if churches stayed where they were supposed to be, down on main in stead of moving up town, maybe if we had the tent meetings, the home meetings, the door to door, or ANY evangelism outreach we might have a solution here. I had a church I attended where their "evangelism" consisted of handing out water bottles with the churches name on it . smh We were told to go out in the highways and byways and compel them to come in. Who is them?? The lost?? All the lost? Yes, all the lost. Not just the ones who don't "flaunt it". If you don't think alcoholics flaunt their sins go to any bar on a Friday night and sit and watch for a while and see what goes on. Of course you couldn't do that, you might find some of your congregation there!!

The church can shut their eyes and ears and look away. But homosexuals are a large amount of people that unreached with the Gospel. And they are unreached because no one has evangelized them. And no one has done that because we don't really believe God's grace is as deep and wide as we say it is. Same thing happened with the Jesus Movement back in the day. The Hippies were the ones the church refused to reach. Long hair and blue jeans send you straight to hell don't you know! In fact the road to hell is literally paved with blue jeans, yes, a "saint" said that to my father when he first came to church. The church has lost it's outreach and some here think it's hysterical when I bring up evangelism, as if it's a matter of pride. Shame on them!! Shame on the church for not reaching out to the lost, ALL the lost!! I catch 'em, HE cleans 'em. Some people here need to read up on revivalists and people like William Booth and his wife. The didn't wait for the lost to come to them, they went out and found them and brought them to the Lord. If anyone in this thread believed what they are saying, believed in a literal hell, believed people could be lost forever, they would never stop evangelizing. They certainly wouldn't be making fun of it. smh Thank you brother for being so sincere and open. It's convicted me to change my POV and my attitude. God bless!!

 

[JerryInBoston]

Then salvation can never be lost. Eternal life is eternal, grace is grace, osas is true, and no child will ever be lost,

thank you for proving me right,

None of what I said I did, and none the subject matters in the following questions to you, is works, as the term works is used relative to salvation, grace, and faith. So, let's see if I can get a straight answer (any answer really) out of you.

I believe all of what Jesus said and all if what Jesus did. Do you?

I repented, which means I changed my mind and turned from sin and turned to Jesus. Did you?

I put my faith, trust, and rest in Jesus. Do you?

I was reborn from above. Were you?

I received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Did you?

I walk with and follow Jesus. Do you?

I obey Jesus's command and abide in Him. Do you?

Because I abide in Jesus he abides in me. Does Jesus abide in you?

Kindly explain how it is possible to be saved by God's grace if you don't have faith, repent, believe, receive the indwelling Spirit, walk with and follow Jesus, obey Jesus's commands, abide in Jesus, and if Jesus does not abide in you ? Once you've explained that, explain how any of the foregoing is works based?

 

[JerryInBoston]

Hey dude, are you judging against.. I I hear you say you have faith, I just do there you say that faith is in God and his work. And how you believe God can fail if you do not work hard enough

and I was typing on a small IPhone, spell Check is awful on that phone, stop trying to shift the discussion, this post was rude,

God never fails, we fail.

When we fail to repent, God is still waiting for us.

When we fail to believe, God is still waiting for us.

When we fail to trust and put our faith in the Lord, God is still waiting for us.

When we miss the mark and sin, God is still there waiting for us to confess our sin and for Him to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

No one can snatch a saved person out from the Lord's grasp, but the saved can leave the Lord, fall away from the Lord, walk away from the Lord, apostacize from our first love the Lord our God, but God is still there waiting for us.

God is the same yesterday, today, and always. You are the one that changes.

 

[peldom10]

You seem to be suggesting that Christians do not sin, which is false.
Or are you suggesting that homosexuality is worse than other sins?

Nobody is suggesting that homosexuality is not a sin. This thread is about how sins are dealt with, and I used homosexuality as an example.

I used to go to a "church" that believed as you do, and yet the "pastor" used the "church" as an income stream...as in "give me more and more of your money" and taught the falsehood that tithing is a requirement of modern Christians.

Funny how they were not accepting of homosexuality but we're accommodating of swindling...!

Shame on you for participating in that church.

Let us be reminded.....we ARE the church.

 

[peldom10]

This is getting wayyyyyy off topic, but for some 500 years now, this point in time has been talked about in our church (RCC)

We are on the precipice of an event that will rock the entire planet. It will be the biggest act of grace since Jesus himself walked the earth. When it happens we will all know how God sees us. After this it will be our last chance to change before the rise of the Antichrist and the great tribulation.

I can tell you with reasonable certainty that the wheels were put into motion sometime around the end of WW2 and that a century of Satan's rule began. It will culminate in the rising of the Antichrist.

The rise of gay people coincides with the age of human knowledge and reasoning. Computers were invented in WW2. Computers have allowed the explosion of knowledge. Knowledge is available to anyone on the planet with a phone in their hand. Something never seen before anytime in history. And what did Eve gain after eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden? It was knowledge. Knowledge without wisdom. And that is the same problem we face today. Knowledge without wisdom.

This possibly sounds a little unhinged, i have not explained it very well at all. It really needs it's own thread.

For an intended synopsis...you did good....including great accuracy.

Blessings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

None of what I said I did, and none the subject matters in the following questions to you, is works, as the term works is used relative to salvation, grace, and faith. So, let's see if I can get a straight answer (any answer really) out of you.

I believe all of what Jesus said and all if what Jesus did. Do you?

I repented, which means I changed my mind and turned from sin and turned to Jesus. Did you?

I put my faith, trust, and rest in Jesus. Do you?

I was reborn from above. Were you?

I received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Did you?

I am with you to here. This is why I am saved this is what allowed me to be born from above. This is why I have eternal life. Add anything else to this to be saved your teaching a works based salvation

I walk with and follow Jesus. Do you?

I obey Jesus's command and abide in Him. Do you?

Because I abide in Jesus he abides in me. Does Jesus abide in you?

I do these because I am saved not to be saved i Am a New creature in Christ all things are new. He who began a good work in me will Complete it I was saved by grace through faith i Am His workmanship created in Christ for good works

Kindly explain how it is possible to be saved by God's grace if you don't have faith, repent, believe, receive the indwelling Spirit, walk with and follow Jesus, obey Jesus's commands, abide in Jesus, and if Jesus does not abide in you ? Once you've explained that, explain how any of the foregoing is works based?

Kindly explain how you can deny you teach works yet right in this very post proclaim your saved because you do. Not Christ did

 

[Magenta]

We are on the precipice of an event that will rock the entire planet. It will be the biggest act of grace since Jesus himself walked the earth. When it happens we will all know how God sees us. After this it will be our last chance to change before the rise of the Antichrist and the great tribulation.

I can tell you with reasonable certainty that the wheels were put into motion sometime around the end of WW2 and that a century of Satan's rule began. It will culminate in the rising of the Antichrist.

The term Antichrist (including one plural form) is found five times in the New Testament, solely in the first and second epistles of John, identified as one "who denies the Father and the Son." There are many such in the world, and there have been for century upon century.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I am with you to here. This is why I am saved this is what allowed me to be born from above. This is why I have eternal life. Add anything else to this to be saved your teaching a works based salvation

I do these because I am saved not to be saved i Am a New creature in Christ all things are new. He who began a good work in me will Complete it I was saved by grace through faith i Am His workmanship created in Christ for good works

Kindly explain how you can deny you teach works yet right in this very post proclaim your saved because you do. Not Christ did

Once again, repenting is not works; believing is not works; putting my faith trust and rest in Jesus is not works; being born again isn't works; receiving g the indwelling Holy Spirit is not works; walking with and following Jesus is not works; obeying Jesus's commands is not works; abiding in Jesus is not works; Jesus abiding in me is not works.

I earned nothing but God's wrath and my own death and eternal destruction in hell for my sins. However, I am saved from God's wrath and now have eternal life, but not by anything I did, but solely by what Jesus did. But, I could have said "No" to God's offer. And even though I said "Yes" I could still walk away, give up fighting and running the race, apostacize. Which is why I pray always for strength and growth in Christ.

Bottom line is this: God extends the gift of salvation to anyone who puts their faith trust and rest in Jesus; I accepted His gift.

If you're a Calvinist (which it appears) you believe you can not resist God's grace or walk away from your faith and lose your salvation; the Bible clearly says otherwise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God never fails, we fail.

When we fail to repent, God is still waiting for us.

When we fail to believe, God is still waiting for us.

When we fail to trust and put our faith in the Lord, God is still waiting for us.

When we miss the mark and sin, God is still there waiting for us to confess our sin and for Him to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

No one can snatch a saved person out from the Lord's grasp, but the saved can leave the Lord, fall away from the Lord, walk away from the Lord, apostacize from our first love the Lord our God, but God is still there waiting for us.

God is the same yesterday, today, and always. You are the one that changes.

We failed already. That’s why we can’t earn salvatiob
to say you can fail is to fail to admit you already failed. You have not become poor in spirit

 

[JerryInBoston]

We failed already. That’s why we can’t earn salvatiob
to say you can fail is to fail to admit you already failed. You have not become poor in spirit

You keep saying "earn salvation", and you're the only one stuck on that. I've never said I earn salvation or that salvation can be earned. It's your animus toward the biblical truth that you can lose your salvation that has your panties in an eternal bunch.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again, repenting is not works; believing is not works; putting my faith trust and rest in Jesus is not works; being born again isn't works; receiving g the indwelling Holy Spirit is not works;

I never said otherwise you have a serious reading comprehension problem if you think I even suggested these were works
I said these are what saves us. It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent

walking with and following Jesus is not works; obeying Jesus's commands is not works; abiding in Jesus is not works; Jesus abiding in me is not works.

If you are doing these to be saved your working to earn salvation

If your doing these in the power of God. Your doing works of sanctification either way they are works. Deny it all you want. It does Not change the facts

I earned nothing but God's wrath and my own death and eternal destruction in hell for my sins. However, I am saved from God's wrath and now have eternal life, but not by anything I did, but solely by what Jesus did. But, I could have said "No" to God's offer. And even though I said "Yes" I could still walk away, give up fighting and running the race, apostacize. Which is why I pray always for strength and growth in Christ.

Bottom line is this: God extends the gift of salvation to anyone who puts their faith trust and rest in Jesus; I accepted His gift.

If you're a Calvinist (which it appears) you believe you can not resist God's grace or walk away from your faith and lose your salvation; the Bible clearly says otherwise.

I am not calvinist
but you claim one thing and teach another.
You claim faith but teach works. I pray you see it soon

 

[JerryInBoston]

I never said otherwise you have a serious reading comprehension problem if you think I even suggested these were works
I said these are what saves us. It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent

If you are doing these to be saved your working to earn salvation

If your doing these in the power of God. Your doing works of sanctification either way they are works. Deny it all you want. It does Not change the facts


I am not calvinist
but you claim one thing and teach another.
You claim faith but teach works. I pray you see it soon

Well, when you're a follower of the hyper-grace movement, it's no wonder you refuse to follow the commands of Jesus when He said to "repent and believe" and "sin no more" and "follow me" and "abide in me." Those were Jesus's commands, not mere suggestions.

 

[Magenta]

Well, when you're a follower of the hyper-grace movement, it's no wonder you refuse to follow the commands of Jesus when He said to "repent and believe" and "sin no more" and "follow me" and "abide in me." Those were Jesus's commands, not mere suggestions.

Who are these hyper-gracers to whom you repeatedly refer?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep saying "earn salvation", and you're the only one stuck on that. I've never said I earn salvation or that salvation can be earned. It's your animus toward the biblical truth that you can lose your salvation that has your panties in an eternal bunch.

I asked you to explain why you believe you must do all those things to
Be saved and claim it is nit works. You have yet to do this

So i Must Continue to insist you are in n danger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, when you're a follower of the hyper-grace movement, it's no wonder you refuse to follow the commands of Jesus when He said to "repent and believe" and "sin no more" and "follow me" and "abide in me." Those were Jesus's commands, not mere suggestions.

If I must follow Commands to be saved i Am trying to save myself. Whether you believe it or Not it’s a fact
I do this things because I am saved.
that’s what separates us. Your trusting in self. My faith is in God

 

[Mark47Oz]

Hey brother, hope you're doing well! This is the point a couple of us have tried to make in this thread. If you look up old posts on this subject I was very dogmatic, hard and fast with the "love the sinner hate the sin" mantra. But as I told you, I have lately felt convicted of that. There is no other sin where we say "well, love the sinner, not the sin". In no way are you flaunting that you're gay. You've been open and honest in a way that no one else has been in this thread. None of us have laid bare our private lives, our struggles and failures except maybe one who said they struggled in the past.

It is unreal to me that we in the church have the idea that homosexuals are the only group that must clean themselves up first before they come through the church doors. Maybe if churches stayed where they were supposed to be, down on main in stead of moving up town, maybe if we had the tent meetings, the home meetings, the door to door, or ANY evangelism outreach we might have a solution here. I had a church I attended where their "evangelism" consisted of handing out water bottles with the churches name on it . smh We were told to go out in the highways and byways and compel them to come in. Who is them?? The lost?? All the lost? Yes, all the lost. Not just the ones who don't "flaunt it". If you don't think alcoholics flaunt their sins go to any bar on a Friday night and sit and watch for a while and see what goes on. Of course you couldn't do that, you might find some of your congregation there!!

The church can shut their eyes and ears and look away. But homosexuals are a large amount of people that unreached with the Gospel. And they are unreached because no one has evangelized them. And no one has done that because we don't really believe God's grace is as deep and wide as we say it is. Same thing happened with the Jesus Movement back in the day. The Hippies were the ones the church refused to reach. Long hair and blue jeans send you straight to hell don't you know! In fact the road to hell is literally paved with blue jeans, yes, a "saint" said that to my father when he first came to church. The church has lost it's outreach and some here think it's hysterical when I bring up evangelism, as if it's a matter of pride. Shame on them!! Shame on the church for not reaching out to the lost, ALL the lost!! I catch 'em, HE cleans 'em. Some people here need to read up on revivalists and people like William Booth and his wife. The didn't wait for the lost to come to them, they went out and found them and brought them to the Lord. If anyone in this thread believed what they are saying, believed in a literal hell, believed people could be lost forever, they would never stop evangelizing. They certainly wouldn't be making fun of it. smh Thank you brother for being so sincere and open. It's convicted me to change my POV and my attitude. God bless!!

I can tell you with an open and honest heart two things.

#1) Jesus IS moving in my my life. I don't know where he's taking me, but I've told him I will follow.

#2) This one breaks my heart, but I'm not in the USA to do anything about it. There are many gay teens who have grown up in Christian families and are simply thrown out on the street when they come out. These young souls are in great danger and many bad things happen to them as a result. They usually end up either in suicide, or become homeless and very vulnerable. By vulnerable I mean that many end up either in the hands of sadistic old men who offer them accommodation in return for sex, or they become sex workers just to get money to stop themselves from starving. These people end up in your biggest cities.

Can you imagine how much pain it causes Jesus to see his beautiful children tossed away like garbage and left for Satan to come and destroy? It's basically putting Jesus back up on the cross and leaving him there.

Somebody ought to set up a ministry for these gay teens. To take them in, let them finish school and educate them in the true love of Christ.

Then there's all the older ones like me. We do believe that God hates us. Because the loudest voice from the churches tells us so.

Of course there are hardened belligerent souls among us that cannot be reached, but it's not all of us.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I asked you to explain why you believe you must do all those things to
Be saved and claim it is nit works. You have yet to do this

So i Must Continue to insist you are in n danger

I don't do those things to be saved. I am saved, I'm being saved, and I will be eternally saved. Of this I'm certain. Praise Jesus, hallelujah. I do those things because I love God for giving an undeserved sinner like me eternal life, and all that I do, I do for the glory of God.

 

[JerryInBoston]

If I must follow Commands to be saved i Am trying to save myself. Whether you believe it or Not it’s a fact
I do this things because I am saved.
that’s what separates us. Your trusting in self. My faith is in God

God gave commands and you don't have follow them to be saved? Hyper-grace.

God commands us to repent and believe.

God commands us to follow Him.

God commands us to abide in Him.

God commands us to love Him with all our heart mind soul and strength andour neighbor as ourselves.

God commands us to pick up our cross and follow Him.

God commands us to sin no more.

God commands us to trust in Jesus because Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

God commands us to confess our sins when we do sin.

God commands us to pray constantly.

God commands us to do His will or we will not get into heaven.

There's more, but you say you don't have to comply with any of God's commands. Sure, okay, you're saved alright. 👎

 

[Mark47Oz]

To anyone who's interest has been piqued by what I have said re prophesy and the antichrist, I invite you to look into some of these places and people. The list below only scratches the surface of the sources I could quote but they are all 20th and 21st century events and people, with the exception of Lourdes.

I fully realise that the vast majority of you on here are non RCC and if you do look these places and people up, it will either harden your opinion about us or it will open your eyes to things you have not been exposed to before. As bad as things are in the RCC right now (yeah, they're pretty bad) God has been very busy talking to us in methods that may seem alien to a lot of non Catholics. This list is just the major events too. There are many, many more.

There is a very clear message coming out of these events;

-Convert your heart to love Jesus
-Repent
-Pray
-Fast
-Do these in order to prepare for what is coming

Places;
Lourdes, Fatima, Zeitoun, Garabandal , Kibeho, Medjugorje

People;
Padre Pio, Sister Sasagawa, Father Michel Rodriguez