Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[OldSage]

I think the question you're posing here is whether "an/the anointed one" is an individual or corporate entity. Let's plug in both to see which is a better fit:


Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [Israel] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [Israel] be cut off, but not for [Itself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


A couple of problems with this take:

1) This doesn't fit because it was a prophecy for Daniel's people, Judah (the southern house; the Jews) not the northern house of Israel. Recall that only Ephraim & Manasseh had the right to bear the name Israel (given to Joseph's youngest son upon the death-bead of Jacob).


Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


From this point forward, only the northern house is either known as Ephraim or Israel, while the southern house is known as Judah until Messiah rejoins them back together himself as written in Ezekiel 37.


2) It doesn't make sense for verse 25 to go into detail about Israel returning with Judah (following the summary given in verse 24) only to be re-scattered and desolated again, because the rejoining of both houses by the Messiah was supposed to follow the resurrection as detailed in Ezekiel 37, the famous "valley of dry bones" chapter...which precedes the Gog/Magog war after they return to their land (Chapters 38& 39). This is still future.


Ezekiel 37:10-11
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


-----

Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "an anointed one" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [an anointed one] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [that anointed one] be cut off, but not for [himself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


This take is perfectly acceptable because it still would point to an anointed one who appeared in the 1st century. Also, note that the initial time-frame says, "from the decree/command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one". it doesn't say, "from the restoring & rebuilding of Jerusalem until an anointed one". Giving the decreed doesn't mean rebuilding immediately started.




Well, the last week wouldn't be AD 33-40, but AD 27-34. Notice that the text says, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one)". The text doesn't say, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one) is cut off". It's implication is 'from the giving of decree until the appearance of anointed one'.


^ This take also matches the record of the Messiah ministering during the 46th year of Herod's temple expansion.

Daniel was a Levite not a Jew.

But he is speaking for all Israel, not just the Southern Kingdom. More to come.

7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel

 

[OldSage]

Why do you think this has any bearing on his calculation - which uses the beginning of the ministry of Jesus as the end point of the 62 weeks?

You seem to be trying really hard to not simply accept what the passage says...?

The 457 B.C. decree puts the 70th week at 27-34 A.D.

During the first half of it was the ministry of Christ.

Christ was crucified in the middle of it. (30 A.D.)

During the last half of it, the Church began to spread the Gospel - first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles.

Significant things that were all contained/included in the promises of the Covenant happened/occurred until the end of the 70th week.

How can I know what bearing it has unless I know what it means?
I totally accept what it says - at the end of 69 weeks an anointed one will be cut off -

I don't really see how you can make those things fit the 70th week.

 

[OldSage]

I think the question you're posing here is whether "an/the anointed one" is an individual or corporate entity. Let's plug in both to see which is a better fit:


Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [Israel] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [Israel] be cut off, but not for [Itself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


A couple of problems with this take:

1) This doesn't fit because it was a prophecy for Daniel's people, Judah (the southern house; the Jews) not the northern house of Israel. Recall that only Ephraim & Manasseh had the right to bear the name Israel (given to Joseph's youngest son upon the death-bead of Jacob).


Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


From this point forward, only the northern house is either known as Ephraim or Israel, while the southern house is known as Judah until Messiah rejoins them back together himself as written in Ezekiel 37.


2) It doesn't make sense for verse 25 to go into detail about Israel returning with Judah (following the summary given in verse 24) only to be re-scattered and desolated again, because the rejoining of both houses by the Messiah was supposed to follow the resurrection as detailed in Ezekiel 37, the famous "valley of dry bones" chapter...which precedes the Gog/Magog war after they return to their land (Chapters 38& 39). This is still future.


Ezekiel 37:10-11
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


-----

Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "an anointed one" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [an anointed one] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [that anointed one] be cut off, but not for [himself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


This take is perfectly acceptable because it still would point to an anointed one who appeared in the 1st century. Also, note that the initial time-frame says, "from the decree/command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one". it doesn't say, "from the restoring & rebuilding of Jerusalem until an anointed one". Giving the decreed doesn't mean rebuilding immediately started.




Well, the last week wouldn't be AD 33-40, but AD 27-34. Notice that the text says, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one)". The text doesn't say, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one) is cut off". It's implication is 'from the giving of decree until the appearance of anointed one'.


^ This take also matches the record of the Messiah ministering during the 46th year of Herod's temple expansion.

I think your view is profoundly anti-scriptural. Jesus came to Israel, Paul talks of the Church as Israel.
So one really has to understand that Israel was reconstituted at some time post the divorce 723BC
and prior to Christ's return. In fact to understand how off beam you are let us go to Jeremiah:

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

See that? "Virgin daughter Israel encompasses a man" i.e. the Jews will say we are now part of Israel again.
So it is abundantly clear that when Judah and Israel came back from captivity together in 538BC, Israel was reconstituted.
Not forgetting that there were still Israelites in the land anyway, they had not all been expelled by the Assyrians.

 

[OldSage]

I think the question you're posing here is whether "an/the anointed one" is an individual or corporate entity. Let's plug in both to see which is a better fit:


Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [Israel] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [Israel] be cut off, but not for [Itself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


A couple of problems with this take:

1) This doesn't fit because it was a prophecy for Daniel's people, Judah (the southern house; the Jews) not the northern house of Israel. Recall that only Ephraim & Manasseh had the right to bear the name Israel (given to Joseph's youngest son upon the death-bead of Jacob).


Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


From this point forward, only the northern house is either known as Ephraim or Israel, while the southern house is known as Judah until Messiah rejoins them back together himself as written in Ezekiel 37.


2) It doesn't make sense for verse 25 to go into detail about Israel returning with Judah (following the summary given in verse 24) only to be re-scattered and desolated again, because the rejoining of both houses by the Messiah was supposed to follow the resurrection as detailed in Ezekiel 37, the famous "valley of dry bones" chapter...which precedes the Gog/Magog war after they return to their land (Chapters 38& 39). This is still future.


Ezekiel 37:10-11
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


-----

Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "an anointed one" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [an anointed one] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [that anointed one] be cut off, but not for [himself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


This take is perfectly acceptable because it still would point to an anointed one who appeared in the 1st century. Also, note that the initial time-frame says, "from the decree/command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one". it doesn't say, "from the restoring & rebuilding of Jerusalem until an anointed one". Giving the decreed doesn't mean rebuilding immediately started.




Well, the last week wouldn't be AD 33-40, but AD 27-34. Notice that the text says, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one)". The text doesn't say, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one) is cut off". It's implication is 'from the giving of decree until the appearance of anointed one'.


^ This take also matches the record of the Messiah ministering during the 46th year of Herod's temple expansion.

So - I like the formula though

Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon Israel and Jerusalem, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto an anointed leader shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall spiritual Israel be cut off from physical Israel and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[OldSage]

I think the question you're posing here is whether "an/the anointed one" is an individual or corporate entity. Let's plug in both to see which is a better fit:


Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "Israel" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [Israel] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [Israel] be cut off, but not for [Itself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


A couple of problems with this take:

1) This doesn't fit because it was a prophecy for Daniel's people, Judah (the southern house; the Jews) not the northern house of Israel. Recall that only Ephraim & Manasseh had the right to bear the name Israel (given to Joseph's youngest son upon the death-bead of Jacob).


Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


From this point forward, only the northern house is either known as Ephraim or Israel, while the southern house is known as Judah until Messiah rejoins them back together himself as written in Ezekiel 37.


2) It doesn't make sense for verse 25 to go into detail about Israel returning with Judah (following the summary given in verse 24) only to be re-scattered and desolated again, because the rejoining of both houses by the Messiah was supposed to follow the resurrection as detailed in Ezekiel 37, the famous "valley of dry bones" chapter...which precedes the Gog/Magog war after they return to their land (Chapters 38& 39). This is still future.


Ezekiel 37:10-11
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.


-----

Daniel 9:24-26[brackets mine; with "an anointed one" inserted]
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Judah/Jews] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [an anointed one] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall [that anointed one] be cut off, but not for [himself] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


This take is perfectly acceptable because it still would point to an anointed one who appeared in the 1st century. Also, note that the initial time-frame says, "from the decree/command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one". it doesn't say, "from the restoring & rebuilding of Jerusalem until an anointed one". Giving the decreed doesn't mean rebuilding immediately started.




Well, the last week wouldn't be AD 33-40, but AD 27-34. Notice that the text says, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one)". The text doesn't say, "from decree...until Messiah (or an anointed one) is cut off". It's implication is 'from the giving of decree until the appearance of anointed one'.


^ This take also matches the record of the Messiah ministering during the 46th year of Herod's temple expansion.

I don't know where you actually stand on the 70 weeks.
It is worth actually understanding the 6 elements of the 70 weeks, they
are not always immediately obvious.

1) kala pesa - restrain/finish the rebellion

Obviously those are 2 different ideas, and it is not clear which translation of kala we understand here.
I would think it refers to the quashing of the rebellion, by Rome, in the 70th week.

2) tamam hatam hattaat - to bring to the full & to seal up sins

This really implies the accumulation of sins of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:29-36) which were piled up until the 69 weeks were complete, and then judged in the 70th week.

1 Thessalonians 2 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, this was the view of the Church Fathers, that the 70 Weeks were to lead to the end of Judaism and to the beginning of Christianity. There is no allegory in that. The time was 70 Weeks of years. We know the first 69 Weeks had to consist of 483 years. Christ's ministry was supposed to have been in the final 7 year period, the 70th Week. But Christ was cut off, and OT offerings were suddenly no longer recognized by God. This happened in the 70th Week, after Christ had come to confirm God's covenant with Israel in the same Week.

So it is purely logical to see that the 70 Week period was completed in a half-Week, and not in a whole Week. Christ was cut off, which is what caused God to no longer recognize Judaism and OT offerings (in the midst of the Week). Christ's offering succeeded (in the midst of the Week) whereas the 70 Weeks could not bring about Israel's salvation. Instead, it brought about Israel's Savior, curtailing Israel's OT covenant for a brand new covenant.

This is a semblance of how the Church Fathers saw it, and also how I see it. You can irrationally call this a 70 Week period, and then cut off the 70th Week, making it into a 69 Week period, and still call it a 70 Week period if you want. But if you do, you seem to be the one who is rationalizing away what otherwise is obviously intended to be a singular, sequential 70 Week period.

Sir

The only church fathers I listen to are named John Peter James and sir mark. Their inspired words are in scripture

If you want to discuss the word I will
Discuss it. But we will get no where if all you want to do is point to uninspired
Men who had their own opinion

 

[cv5]

I don't know where you actually stand on the 70 weeks.
It is worth actually understanding the 6 elements of the 70 weeks, they
are not always immediately obvious.

1) kala pesa - restrain/finish the rebellion

Obviously those are 2 different ideas, and it is not clear which translation of kala we understand here.
I would think it refers to the quashing of the rebellion, by Rome, in the 70th week.

2) tamam hatam hattaat - to bring to the full & to seal up sins

This really implies the accumulation of sins of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:29-36) which were piled up until the 69 weeks were complete, and then judged in the 70th week.

1 Thessalonians 2 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

So what happens AFTER "the times of the gentiles be fulfilled" and "the fullness of the gentiles be come in". You know.....the "gap"? The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant to the nation Israel?

 

[randyk]

Sir

The only church fathers I listen to are named John Peter James and sir mark. Their inspired words are in scripture

If you want to discuss the word I will
Discuss it. But we will get no where if all you want to do is point to uninspired
Men who had their own opinion

1 John 4.19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
5.1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

I can't tell you how many times I get this absolute contempt for the Church Fathers and for historic Christian Commentators. Simply because they make occasional errors or say something a person doesn't agree with they are thrown to the lions as so much cheap flesh!

Yet the above Scripture tells us it should be natural for us to love our brothers. In fact, Paul tells us to heap double honor on Christian ministers because of the noble, yet difficult, job they do. Rather than make things tougher on them, we should be supportive of them, even if we see them as flawed and even if we don't agree with everything they say.

My purpose in quoting them is to acknowledge that the Scriptures encourage us to be correctable, to listen and to seriously consider advice, and to be humble. And it is because they were much closer to the history about which we speak. In particular, if there is a consensus opinion among them, we should either recognize the value in their mutually-stated opinion or we should find out why they should be agreed on something so wrong.

But to call them "uninspired men" is positively ignorant. Obviously, you've spent little time reading them--they were very inspired men!

But my argument doesn't rest just on them--I use them as a confirmation source. Really, my argument hangs on the Scriptures themselves. Obviously, what I or the Church Fathers would be arguing is Scripture itself, just as you claim to do. So are you "uninspired" too? If I disagree with you, and your view is not the Scriptures should I toss you on the garbage pile and call you "uninspired" because you're not the Scriptures? Of course not!

 

[cv5]

No, this was the view of the Church Fathers, that the 70 Weeks were to lead to the end of Judaism and to the beginning of Christianity. There is no allegory in that. The time was 70 Weeks of years. We know the first 69 Weeks had to consist of 483 years. Christ's ministry was supposed to have been in the final 7 year period, the 70th Week. But Christ was cut off, and OT offerings were suddenly no longer recognized by God. This happened in the 70th Week, after Christ had come to confirm God's covenant with Israel in the same Week.

So it is purely logical to see that the 70 Week period was completed in a half-Week, and not in a whole Week. Christ was cut off, which is what caused God to no longer recognize Judaism and OT offerings (in the midst of the Week). Christ's offering succeeded (in the midst of the Week) whereas the 70 Weeks could not bring about Israel's salvation. Instead, it brought about Israel's Savior, curtailing Israel's OT covenant for a brand new covenant.

This is a semblance of how the Church Fathers saw it, and also how I see it. You can irrationally call this a 70 Week period, and then cut off the 70th Week, making it into a 69 Week period, and still call it a 70 Week period if you want. But if you do, you seem to be the one who is rationalizing away what otherwise is obviously intended to be a singular, sequential 70 Week period.

No you've got that all wrong. The earliest apostolic fathers were pretrib and premillennial. Just the same as the apostle Paul was, from whom they derived these teachings. Which makes perfect sense and is purely logical.

 

[OldSage]

So what happens AFTER "the times of the gentiles be fulfilled" and "the fullness of the gentiles be come in". You know.....the "gap"? The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant to the nation Israel?

The "gap" ? The period before Jesus' return? For certain that physical Israel comes in.
Beyond that, we need to check the scriptures.

 

[randyk]

No you've got that all wrong. The earliest apostolic fathers were pretrib and premillennial. Just the same as the apostle Paul was, from whom they derived these teachings. Which makes perfect sense and is purely logical.

Pretrib didn't exist at all in the Christian Church until late in Christian history. It was designed into a theological system by John N. Darby early in the 19th century, who was excited about the Catholic trend towards Premillennialism and Futurism.

 

[randyk]

The conflation of "imminent expectation" of Christ's return with the idea that "Christ may come back at any moment" is what causes some Christians to believe Pretrib was in the Church from earliest times. But "imminent expectation" is here being misunderstood, in my opinion.

The Jews were told that judgment was coming upon them in their generation, and there was an immediate need to repent of sin and to thereby avoid this judgment. This was indeed an "imminent expectation."

Being constantly vigilant has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" unless the context calls for it. Generally, Christians are always to be vigilant against present enemies of our faith and against distractions and deceptions. We are to watch against false Christs and false prophets. We are to guard against errors of every kind, because Satan is busy with this kind of work.

The nearness of the Kingdom has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" either. The Kingdom of Christ is near simply because the King, the Lord Jesus, has already died for us and has supplied us with the hope of glorification. We already have righteousness and are able to put it into effect for our salvation and for the salvation of others.

We have need to prepare people *now* for that future event. The "nearness" of the Kingdom therefore has to do with the need to prepare now, since the tools are available, and all has been provided to prepare for it. God is simply giving time for people to hear the Gospel and to get ready for judgment. In that respect, Christ's Kingdom is "near."

The proximity of the Kingdom is also a warning to the wicked that their time is coming to an end. They have been given a dispensation of patience, but that has limited reach. Judgment from God has never really ceased--it's just that God is long-suffering, not wanting any to perish in judgment.

The Kingdom is near, but it is not yet here. Getting excited about its proximity is the antithesis to Paul's warning "not* to get excited about claimed imminent appearances of the Kingdom of Christ--see 2 Thes 2.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

 

[cv5]

Pretrib didn't exist at all in the Christian Church until late in Christian history. It was designed into a theological system by John N. Darby early in the 19th century, who was excited about the Catholic trend towards Premillennialism and Futurism.

How can that be if the author of the doctrine was the apostle Paul himself? I mean I can read Paul's inspired writings just the same as the apostolic fathers and I've reached the same conclusion: Pretrib premillennial. Why in the world would I postulate something different than what Paul describes?

 

[cv5]

The conflation of "imminent expectation" of Christ's return with the idea that "Christ may come back at any moment" is what causes some Christians to believe Pretrib was in the Church from earliest times. But "imminent expectation" is here being misunderstood, in my opinion.

The Jews were told that judgment was coming upon them in their generation, and there was an immediate need to repent of sin and to thereby avoid this judgment. This was indeed an "imminent expectation."

Being constantly vigilant has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" unless the context calls for it. Generally, Christians are always to be vigilant against present enemies of our faith and against distractions and deceptions. We are to watch against false Christs and false prophets. We are to guard against errors of every kind, because Satan is busy with this kind of work.

The nearness of the Kingdom has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" either. The Kingdom of Christ is near simply because the King, the Lord Jesus, has already died for us and has supplied us with the hope of glorification. We already have righteousness and are able to put it into effect for our salvation and for the salvation of others.

We have need to prepare people *now* for that future event. The "nearness" of the Kingdom therefore has to do with the need to prepare now, since the tools are available, and all has been provided to prepare for it. God is simply giving time for people to hear the Gospel and to get ready for judgment. In that respect, Christ's Kingdom is "near."

The proximity of the Kingdom is also a warning to the wicked that their time is coming to an end. They have been given a dispensation of patience, but that has limited reach. Judgment from God has never really ceased--it's just that God is long-suffering, not wanting any to perish in judgment.

The Kingdom is near, but it is not yet here. Getting excited about its proximity is the antithesis to Paul's warning "not* to get excited about claimed imminent appearances of the Kingdom of Christ--see 2 Thes 2.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Doctrine of imminency? No you've got it all wrong.
You fail to understand that Jesus' use of the term "the day and the hour" is a Hebrew idiom pertaining to the sighting of the new moon at Rosh Hashanah. What's implied in that term is that indeed, everyone knows that Rosh Hashanah is coming inevitably. The whole village the whole nation. They generally know the season and the month of the year. They see the new year on the horizon it is inevitable. But the precise time of the sighting of the new moon is completely unknown. Therefore they have to set up a vigilant WATCH to determine the precise arrival.

Such as it is today. The vigilant understand that these days are the end times and the fulfillment of PROPHECY shall be consummated.

The fulfillment of prophecy is always key. Fulfillment of prophecy must always be integrated for the simple reason that it must needs to be fulfilled.

 

[cv5]

The conflation of "imminent expectation" of Christ's return with the idea that "Christ may come back at any moment" is what causes some Christians to believe Pretrib was in the Church from earliest times. But "imminent expectation" is here being misunderstood, in my opinion.

The Jews were told that judgment was coming upon them in their generation, and there was an immediate need to repent of sin and to thereby avoid this judgment. This was indeed an "imminent expectation."

Being constantly vigilant has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" unless the context calls for it. Generally, Christians are always to be vigilant against present enemies of our faith and against distractions and deceptions. We are to watch against false Christs and false prophets. We are to guard against errors of every kind, because Satan is busy with this kind of work.

The nearness of the Kingdom has nothing to do with "imminent expectation" either. The Kingdom of Christ is near simply because the King, the Lord Jesus, has already died for us and has supplied us with the hope of glorification. We already have righteousness and are able to put it into effect for our salvation and for the salvation of others.

We have need to prepare people *now* for that future event. The "nearness" of the Kingdom therefore has to do with the need to prepare now, since the tools are available, and all has been provided to prepare for it. God is simply giving time for people to hear the Gospel and to get ready for judgment. In that respect, Christ's Kingdom is "near."

The proximity of the Kingdom is also a warning to the wicked that their time is coming to an end. They have been given a dispensation of patience, but that has limited reach. Judgment from God has never really ceased--it's just that God is long-suffering, not wanting any to perish in judgment.

The Kingdom is near, but it is not yet here. Getting excited about its proximity is the antithesis to Paul's warning "not* to get excited about claimed imminent appearances of the Kingdom of Christ--see 2 Thes 2.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Banal and insipid generalities that do not invoke the necessity of the "end of the age" and the prophecies thereof........are pretty much useless.

The coming Kingdom is what everything is all about. Reducing everything down to a mere anthropic denominator is folly.

 

[OldSage]

Banal and insipid generalities that do not invoke the necessity of the "end of the age" and the prophecies thereof........are pretty much useless.

The coming Kingdom is what everything is all about. Reducing everything down to a mere anthropic denominator is folly.

Word of the Day - Anthropic

involving or concerning the existence of human life, especially as a constraint on theories of the universe

 

[Nehemiah6]

Pretrib didn't exist at all in the Christian Church until late in Christian history. It was designed into a theological system by John N. Darby early in the 19th century, who was excited about the Catholic trend towards Premillennialism and Futurism.

This anti-Pretribulation Rapture propaganda has been making the rounds for a long time. It is as worthless as any propaganda, since all propaganda is based on lies.

As I have said many times, Christ revealed the Pretribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 BEFORE His crucifixion in 30 AD. Long before Darby or anyone else. He did not fill out all the details, which would be done by the other apostles. But when all the passages regarding the Resurrection/Rapture are properly collated and connected, there should not even be any argument about this important doctrine.

The real issue is that most Christians do not understand the spiritual significance of the Resurrection/Rapture and its connection to salvation. Therefore they continue to stumble over the sequence of events. Some continue to present the bizarre notion that the Rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same! This is similar to the bizarre notion that "the prince that shall come" in Daniel is Christ, rather than the Antichrist.

 

[Yahshua]

Daniel was a Levite not a Jew.

But he is speaking for all Israel, not just the Southern Kingdom. More to come.

7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel

Well I never said Daniel was a Jew. As I'm sure you know the southern house is Judah, Bejamin, and some Levites...while the northern house is the rest of the tribes, and some Levites. Recall the reason for Daniel's prayer...

Daniel 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


70 Years as detailed in the book of Jeremiah. Well let's see what Jeremiah says...


Jeremiah 25:1-3
The word came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. So Jeremiah the prophet said to all the people of Judah and to all those living in Jerusalem: For twenty-three years—from the thirteenth year of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah until this very day—the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again, but you have not listened.


Jehoiakim was only the king of Judah because by this time the northern house had already been judged to go into exile for their sins. The kingdom of Judah still existed at this time and Jeremiah was pronouncing punishment on THEM next in the name of the Almighty (after multiple warnings by multiple prophets).


Jeremiah 25:11-14 [brackets mine]
11 This whole country [Jerusalem] will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the Lord, “and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring on that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.”


The 70 years were for the kingdom of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Notice what Hosea says...Hosea's prophecy was given to both houses during the time JUST BEFORE the N. kingdom of Israel was ended. So Hosea is before Jeremiah.


Hosea 1:1-10
This is the word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and of Jeroboam son of Jehoash, king of Israel.

2 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, He told him, “Go, take a prostitute as your wife and have children of adultery, because this land is flagrantly prostituting itself by departing from the LORD.”

3 So Hosea went and married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel, for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

6 Gomer again conceived and gave birth to a daughter, and the LORD said to Hosea, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I should ever forgive them. Yet I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will save them—not by bow or sword or war, not by horses and cavalry, but by the LORD their God.”

8 After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’


The Almighty said that he would no longer forgive the northern house but he would have compassion on the southern house a bit more...but by the time of Jehoiakim (which was roughtly 120 some odd years later) the Almighty was fed up with the southern house too and so pronounced judgment on them. Notice how Jeremiah 3:8 reads...


Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.


The Almighty: "ok so for adultery I divorced the northern house...but you then go and also act like a whore too, Judah?"


So the 70 Years punishment was for the southern house; the Jews...but then 7 times more punishment was added on because they did not repent.

----

Will reply to your next post now...

 

[cv5]

Well I never said Daniel was a Jew. As I'm sure you know the southern house is Judah, Bejamin, and some Levites...while the northern house is the rest of the tribes, and some Levites. Recall the reason for Daniel's prayer...

Daniel 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


70 Years as detailed in the book of Jeremiah. Well let's see what Jeremiah says...


Jeremiah 25:1-3
The word came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. So Jeremiah the prophet said to all the people of Judah and to all those living in Jerusalem: For twenty-three years—from the thirteenth year of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah until this very day—the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again, but you have not listened.


Jehoiakim was only the king of Judah because by this time the northern house had already been judged to go into exile for their sins. The kingdom of Judah still existed at this time and Jeremiah was pronouncing punishment on THEM next in the name of the Almighty (after multiple warnings by multiple prophets).


Jeremiah 25:11-14 [brackets mine]
11 This whole country [Jerusalem] will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the Lord, “and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring on that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.”


The 70 years were for the kingdom of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Notice what Hosea says...Hosea's prophecy was given to both houses during the time JUST BEFORE the N. kingdom of Israel was ended. So Hosea is before Jeremiah.


Hosea 1:1-10
This is the word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and of Jeroboam son of Jehoash, king of Israel.

2 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, He told him, “Go, take a prostitute as your wife and have children of adultery, because this land is flagrantly prostituting itself by departing from the LORD.”

3 So Hosea went and married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel, for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

6 Gomer again conceived and gave birth to a daughter, and the LORD said to Hosea, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I should ever forgive them. Yet I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will save them—not by bow or sword or war, not by horses and cavalry, but by the LORD their God.”

8 After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’


The Almighty said that he would no longer forgive the northern house but he would have compassion on the southern house a bit more...but by the time of Jehoiakim (which was roughtly 120 some odd years later) the Almighty was fed up with the southern house too and so pronounced judgment on them. Notice how Jeremiah 3:8 reads...


Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.


The Almighty: "ok so for adultery I divorced the northern house...but you then go and also act like a whore too, Judah?"


So the 70 Years punishment was for the southern house; the Jews...but then 7 times more punishment was added on because they did not repent.

----

Will reply to your next post now...

I don't know what you're getting at (pushing the 10 lost tribes heresy?)...but have you forgotten this...?
Was Ezekiel post-exilic? Of course he was (second seige). Writing long after 722BC.

Eze 4:5 - For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Eze 4:6 - And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

 

[Yahshua]

I think your view is profoundly anti-scriptural. Jesus came to Israel, Paul talks of the Church as Israel.
So one really has to understand that Israel was reconstituted at some time post the divorce 723BC
and prior to Christ's return. In fact to understand how off beam you are let us go to Jeremiah:

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

See that? "Virgin daughter Israel encompasses a man" i.e. the Jews will say we are now part of Israel again.
So it is abundantly clear that when Judah and Israel came back from captivity together in 538BC, Israel was reconstituted.
Not forgetting that there were still Israelites in the land anyway, they had not all been expelled by the Assyrians.

The northern house couldn't simply return with the southern house because they were divorced. But the southern house could return because they were not divorced yet, they were just under punishment.


Deuteronomy 24:4
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


The Almighty abides by His law. It would've been an abomination for the Almighty to just bring back the northern house because He divorced her and she was defiled. For as long as He lived (hint, hint) He could not remarry her...ever. So Israel couldn't reconstitute before the husband died. So it was only Judah, the southern house, who returned to the land.

Jeremiah 31 is the promise to restore all of Israel (both houses) under the new covenant...which could only be fulfilled AFTER the Husband died. It was only AFTER the Husband died that he could remarry the northern house because the law of marriage was in force while the parties are still alive, as explained by Paul.


Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.


Messiah told his disciples - Benjaminites and Judaites - to not go to anyone else but to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel (the northern house). They were lost because they were divorced. AFTER Messiah died and resurrected. the lost sheep of the northern house were sought out. Then the door was also open for the gentiles to be grafted.