Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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No you dont...lol And you certainly have no clue what's really going on n this evil world we live in?
Are yall paid to be on here? Because you are like scripted. Asking the same questions over and over again...and you get the answer and then ask same question over and over again. Relentless
Similar to YouTube paid trolls lol
Are yall paid to be on here? Because you are like scripted. Asking the same questions over and over again...and you get the answer and then ask same question over and over again. Relentless
Similar to YouTube paid trolls lol
Not yet, of course.
That's where you need to go. And you failed to address my point. I gave you what Henry Morris wrote about the 2 Witnesses. And he views their rising up after 3.5 days as when they received their immortal bodies.
The obvious point is that if there will be a pretrib rapture as you theorize, then both of the 2 W WILL ALREADY HAVE THEIR NEW BODIES. So they CANNOT die again during their ministry.
So, please explain this problem that you have.
You need to.
Well, you certainly do need to explain how the pretrib rapture, which included ALL the previously dead saints already in heaven, can die again, as the 2 W certainly will. The Bible says they will.
So you have a problem that you cannot explain. And it shows that you aren't even interested in trying.
Your final comment is just another huge cop-out.
Which is typical of those who have no answers.
Truth ALWAYS has an answer.
That's where you need to go. And you failed to address my point. I gave you what Henry Morris wrote about the 2 Witnesses. And he views their rising up after 3.5 days as when they received their immortal bodies.
The obvious point is that if there will be a pretrib rapture as you theorize, then both of the 2 W WILL ALREADY HAVE THEIR NEW BODIES. So they CANNOT die again during their ministry.
So, please explain this problem that you have.
You need to.
Well, you certainly do need to explain how the pretrib rapture, which included ALL the previously dead saints already in heaven, can die again, as the 2 W certainly will. The Bible says they will.
So you have a problem that you cannot explain. And it shows that you aren't even interested in trying.
Your final comment is just another huge cop-out.
Which is typical of those who have no answers.
Truth ALWAYS has an answer.
FreeGrace2 said:
More accurately, if all the pretribbers would consider the 2W and how they would have gotten their resurrection bodies before their ministry YET were killed by the beast at the end of their ministry.
Now, that would be an amazing insight.
How does that answer the problem that a pretrib rapture create for the 2W?
It is your replies that cleraly showcase your abysmal failure to understand the Bible.
So, just ignore the problem that I have pointed out.
More accurately, if all the pretribbers would consider the 2W and how they would have gotten their resurrection bodies before their ministry YET were killed by the beast at the end of their ministry.
Now, that would be an amazing insight.
How does that answer the problem that a pretrib rapture create for the 2W?
It is your replies that cleraly showcase your abysmal failure to understand the Bible.
So, just ignore the problem that I have pointed out.
^ @FreeGrace2 , I see no problem this supposedly "creates"... the 2W's "1260 days" straddle the two halves... their ministry doesn't even start until the Trumpets (and occurs during the first six Trumpets); that leaves approx a year and a half IN THE FIRST HALF, BEFORE the Trumpets even begin... (i.e. from the START of the 7 yrs [starting at SEAL 1])... before they even begin their "1260 day" ministry...
Thus, this is not at all requiring them to have received glorified bodies at the time of "our Rapture"--which event PRECEDES the "First Seal," even. Your "dilemma" makes no sense to me; EVEN IF their ministry were to begin at the time of Seal 1 (which I do not believe it does--coz it ENDS with the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe") and were to cover "the first half" in its entirety (it doesn't!), this poses NO PROBLEM.
Thus, this is not at all requiring them to have received glorified bodies at the time of "our Rapture"--which event PRECEDES the "First Seal," even. Your "dilemma" makes no sense to me; EVEN IF their ministry were to begin at the time of Seal 1 (which I do not believe it does--coz it ENDS with the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe") and were to cover "the first half" in its entirety (it doesn't!), this poses NO PROBLEM.
^ P.S. I've already pointed out:
--how Daniel (OT saint) was told, "thou shalt rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be 'resurrected' ('to stand again' (on the earth)] at the END OF THE DAYS [/at the END of the 'DAYS' referred to in THAT CONTEXT, so at the END of the TRIB--just as ALL OT saints will be]"
--how 1Cor15:23 states "[re: 'resurrection'] ...but EACH [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER/RANK" (meaning, there is an "ORDER/RANK" to it, and there does not remain ONLY ONE, at ONE point in time); 1Cor15:51-54 is saying "THIS corruptible" (specifically / in particular) "and THIS mortal" (specifically / in particular)--addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"), Eph1:20-23 ['WHEN' (as to its existence)] (note: "Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--those saints were not promised "Rapture [/SNATCH / caught up / harpazo G726]"); and Eph1:10 is not speaking of "in this PRESENT age [singular]"/the NOW
--how Daniel (OT saint) was told, "thou shalt rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be 'resurrected' ('to stand again' (on the earth)] at the END OF THE DAYS [/at the END of the 'DAYS' referred to in THAT CONTEXT, so at the END of the TRIB--just as ALL OT saints will be]"
--how 1Cor15:23 states "[re: 'resurrection'] ...but EACH [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER/RANK" (meaning, there is an "ORDER/RANK" to it, and there does not remain ONLY ONE, at ONE point in time); 1Cor15:51-54 is saying "THIS corruptible" (specifically / in particular) "and THIS mortal" (specifically / in particular)--addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"), Eph1:20-23 ['WHEN' (as to its existence)] (note: "Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--those saints were not promised "Rapture [/SNATCH / caught up / harpazo G726]"); and Eph1:10 is not speaking of "in this PRESENT age [singular]"/the NOW
Your copy and paste methodology fails to communicate anything.
Why not instead explain how the 2W will physically die in the Trib IF IF IF IF there will be a PRE Trib rapture, where ALL of heaven's occupants will be resurrected with immortal bodies.
That's what you cannot explain.
You're going to have to presume that Jesus leaves the 2 W behind when He takes all the rest to meet the living saints in the air and resurrects EVERYONE ELSE.
Boy, talk about "LEFT BEHIND". But a new meaning, huh.
Why not instead explain how the 2W will physically die in the Trib IF IF IF IF there will be a PRE Trib rapture, where ALL of heaven's occupants will be resurrected with immortal bodies.
That's what you cannot explain.
You're going to have to presume that Jesus leaves the 2 W behind when He takes all the rest to meet the living saints in the air and resurrects EVERYONE ELSE.
Boy, talk about "LEFT BEHIND". But a new meaning, huh.
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I guess you just don't really understand any of this.
So I'll lay it out for you.
A pretrib rapture means that Jesus brings ALL the occupants in heaven with Him when He meets the living believers in the air and gives everyone an immortal body.
The 2W have their ministry IN the Trib. Yet they are killed IN the Trib, which is AFTER they receive their immortal bodies BEFORE the Trib.
You DO know that "before the Trib" is the same as "pretrib", right?
So I'll lay it out for you.
A pretrib rapture means that Jesus brings ALL the occupants in heaven with Him when He meets the living believers in the air and gives everyone an immortal body.
The 2W have their ministry IN the Trib. Yet they are killed IN the Trib, which is AFTER they receive their immortal bodies BEFORE the Trib.
You DO know that "before the Trib" is the same as "pretrib", right?
No, it does NOT mean that.
"...will God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" is NOT saying He will bring with Jesus the SOULS/SPIRITS of the previously-deceased saints ('dead in Christ') SO THAT they can get their new immortal bodies. No. (Sure, they'll do that, but THIS isn't referring to such!!)
While they ARE "present with the Lord" (without their "physical bodies," which are in the grave still), "our Rapture [SNATCH / caught up / harpazo G726]" event (for BOTH "the dead in Christ" AND the "we which are alive" [the "ONE BODY" together AT THE SAME TIME]) is the means by which it occurs that "[and SO shall we] ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (i.e His "PRESENT TO" thing spoken of in Eph5:27 as well as in 2Cor11:2 [the 'A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]'];...
...IOW, *we* are NOT the "10 Virgins [plural]" nor even the "5 [plural]"... whom He is not coming to "MARRY" [those pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, and their ENTRANCE into it (in their mortal bodies--capable of reproducing/bearing children)... This is not who Jesus is "returning" at the point TO MARRY: see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom], THEN the meal [G347]"--aka the MK age [Lk12 being a parallel passage to Matt24:42-51, etc]); ...so Rev19:7 and 19:9 are distinct...
"shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is speaking specifically of a point in time AFTER we've been "caught up together... and so shall be ever be WITH [G4862] the Lord"... IOW, the question pertaining to the "dead in Christ" being: "HOW IS IT that they too will participate in the "bring WITH [G4862] Him" thing, if they're DEAD??" Paul is saying, "HERE'S HOW" ('the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first..."... we'll all be "caught up TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME"... this is how they AND we[-still-alive-ones] can RETURN WITH [G4862] HIM (see also Col3:4 and others)--coz they too will have experienced "our Rapture" event [when the "G4862" thing occurs!], so NO PROBLEM, Paul says, ...THIS IS "HOW"!...
]
Again, the "shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is not speaking of their SOULS/SPIRITS coming with Jesus to obtain their [now-glorified] bodies (at the time of "our Rapture"). No. Rather, it speaks of the time when Jesus will "RETURN" (they / the "dead in Christ" will be able to participate in this "*ALSO*" [it says]... BY THIS MEANS: "our Rapture" event [when the "UNION-with [G4862]" thing occurs] having preceded that point in time, he's saying)
"...will God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" is NOT saying He will bring with Jesus the SOULS/SPIRITS of the previously-deceased saints ('dead in Christ') SO THAT they can get their new immortal bodies. No. (Sure, they'll do that, but THIS isn't referring to such!!)
While they ARE "present with the Lord" (without their "physical bodies," which are in the grave still), "our Rapture [SNATCH / caught up / harpazo G726]" event (for BOTH "the dead in Christ" AND the "we which are alive" [the "ONE BODY" together AT THE SAME TIME]) is the means by which it occurs that "[and SO shall we] ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (i.e His "PRESENT TO" thing spoken of in Eph5:27 as well as in 2Cor11:2 [the 'A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]'];...
...IOW, *we* are NOT the "10 Virgins [plural]" nor even the "5 [plural]"... whom He is not coming to "MARRY" [those pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, and their ENTRANCE into it (in their mortal bodies--capable of reproducing/bearing children)... This is not who Jesus is "returning" at the point TO MARRY: see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom], THEN the meal [G347]"--aka the MK age [Lk12 being a parallel passage to Matt24:42-51, etc]); ...so Rev19:7 and 19:9 are distinct...
"shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is speaking specifically of a point in time AFTER we've been "caught up together... and so shall be ever be WITH [G4862] the Lord"... IOW, the question pertaining to the "dead in Christ" being: "HOW IS IT that they too will participate in the "bring WITH [G4862] Him" thing, if they're DEAD??" Paul is saying, "HERE'S HOW" ('the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first..."... we'll all be "caught up TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME"... this is how they AND we[-still-alive-ones] can RETURN WITH [G4862] HIM (see also Col3:4 and others)--coz they too will have experienced "our Rapture" event [when the "G4862" thing occurs!], so NO PROBLEM, Paul says, ...THIS IS "HOW"!...
]Again, the "shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is not speaking of their SOULS/SPIRITS coming with Jesus to obtain their [now-glorified] bodies (at the time of "our Rapture"). No. Rather, it speaks of the time when Jesus will "RETURN" (they / the "dead in Christ" will be able to participate in this "*ALSO*" [it says]... BY THIS MEANS: "our Rapture" event [when the "UNION-with [G4862]" thing occurs] having preceded that point in time, he's saying)
^ and again, OT saints (as well as Trib saints who DIE during the Trib) are not "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" until the END of the Trib (THEY are not who "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" PERTAINS to--They were never promised this--"our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved 'in this present age [singular]'], Eph1:20-23 [WHEN (as to its existence)])
FreeGrace2 said:
So I'll lay it out for you.
A pretrib rapture means that Jesus brings ALL the occupants in heaven with Him when He meets the living believers in the air and gives everyone an immortal body.
Of course it does.
I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, but that's exactly what I'm talking about.
What in the world do you think "pretrib rapture" means then?
If you want to communicate with me, then please cut the extreme clutter and just type; no frilly stuff. It's very hard to figure out what you are saying when one has to wade through all your tiresome frills.
Again, I'm not even talking about virgins. Sheesh.
So I'll lay it out for you.
A pretrib rapture means that Jesus brings ALL the occupants in heaven with Him when He meets the living believers in the air and gives everyone an immortal body.
Of course it does.
I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, but that's exactly what I'm talking about.
What in the world do you think "pretrib rapture" means then?
If you want to communicate with me, then please cut the extreme clutter and just type; no frilly stuff. It's very hard to figure out what you are saying when one has to wade through all your tiresome frills.
Again, I'm not even talking about virgins. Sheesh.
LOL Contradictions? something that is disagreeing with their opinion of scripture. Prophecy you and I can be wrong and that has nothing to do with an error in the word of God. You can dig as deep as your human mind with let you go, but Prophecy is Confirmed when it happens so you really don't know that is why all Pre-trib. post-trib have biblical points Human understanding is limited.
I as Said before the doctrine of imminence is far more correct than your deep understanding AT any moment the lord can come. YOU and I are not in the knowledge we are to be ready today.
I as Said before the doctrine of imminence is far more correct than your deep understanding AT any moment the lord can come. YOU and I are not in the knowledge we are to be ready today.
The Bible says differently.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This is what the "first resurrection" from Rev 20 refers to. Christ was the first to be bodily resurrected, and THEN, when He comes, which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him".
Do you understand the phrase "those who belong to Him"? It means ALL saved people, from Adam forward.
Since you seem not to believe this, show me where in the Bible it teaches that there will be stages or several "first resurrections".
But I'll save you some time. There aren't any. 1 Cor 15:23 shows just 1 "first resurrection" which is for ALL saved people.
That means all at once.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This is what the "first resurrection" from Rev 20 refers to. Christ was the first to be bodily resurrected, and THEN, when He comes, which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him".
Do you understand the phrase "those who belong to Him"? It means ALL saved people, from Adam forward.
Since you seem not to believe this, show me where in the Bible it teaches that there will be stages or several "first resurrections".
But I'll save you some time. There aren't any. 1 Cor 15:23 shows just 1 "first resurrection" which is for ALL saved people.
That means all at once.