2 Thessalonians 2

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage,

I'd still like to know your thoughts on this (since you yourself brought up the word):

[TDW: re: G4714 "stasin / stasis"]

https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-8.htm

Do you think its NINTH occurrence is IDENTICAL IN MEANING as the other 8x?? ("insurrection")

- https://christianchat.com/threads/2-thessalonians-2.199969/post-4607297

 

[FreeGrace2]

^ No... that is not MY "understanding" (as you suggest ^ )


Instead, the "false claim" that Paul is pointing out in v.2 has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "[purporting] that the RAPTURE has already happened!"

Quite avoiding v.1, which clearly shows the rapture occurring with the Second Advent.

 

[OldSage]

.

tdw's departure is in the sense of a plane leaving the runway or a train leaving a station, though even the translators that use that exact term' intent of usage is in the sense of a divergence from an common idea rather than a physical location.

I understand that. Its just incredibly time consuming trying to defragment and reconstruct TDWs awful posts which are completely incomprehensible. Its like he's just too lazy to present his thoughts properly. Then when you present his ideas bavk to him he gets evasive and goes off at an unrelated tangent, or claims thats not what he means, without in any way illuminating you as to what he actually means.
Then you realize after a while it is not only false eschatology, but there is also something else not quite right.

 

[OldSage]

It pains me to see you like this ...

Thats kind of you to say. I am a devout Christian Mem, it pains me to see people who you feel are letting the side down

 

[Mem]

.


I understand that. Its just incredibly time consuming trying to defragment and reconstruct TDWs awful posts which are completely incomprehensible. Its like he's just too lazy to present his thoughts properly. Then when you present his ideas bavk to him he gets evasive and goes off at an unrelated tangent, or claims thats not what he means, without in any way illuminating you as to what he actually means.
Then you realize after a while it is not only false eschatology, but there is also something else not quite right.

The word "slippery" comes to mind.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Then when you present his ideas bavk to him he

I didn't see you present my ideas back to me... I saw you pass *your* ideas back to me, presenting them as though they were *my* ideas



[what should one call *that*, I wonder...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Quite avoiding v.1, which clearly shows the rapture occurring with the Second Advent.

Your assumption / presupposition (but a wrong one, if you are speaking of His Rev19 Return [/ what we commonly call "His 2nd Advent"]).




Immediately following "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM / "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "THE Departure" [which are all the SAME event], then "the man of sin" is "revealed" (not "is destroyed"--that comes much later in the "chronology," namely at v.8b's "MANIFESTATION of His [Jesus'] presence / parousia" [when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him]), NOT at the point in time of v.1's event--the event which ONLY *WE* will experience/participate in: with/in His "presence / parousia" IN THE AIR... when WE (and WE ALONE) go "TO the meeting OF THE LORD in the air" (and NO ONE ELSE); Once THAT EVENT happens (our Rapture)... Enter vv.10-12, when "God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, in order that THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUEDEI..."

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Quite avoiding v.1, which clearly shows the rapture occurring with the Second Advent.

Your assumption / presupposition (but a wrong one, if you are speaking of His Rev19 Return [/ what we commonly call "His 2nd Advent"]).

You quoted 2 Thess 2:2+ but ignored v.1. I assumed nothing. Why are YOU presuming?

Will you take my challenge? Quote 2 Thess 2:1 like this, but put in the parentheses the words you think "coming" and "gathering" mean.

Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

OK, your turn.

Immediately following "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM / "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "THE Departure" [which are all the SAME event], then "the man of sin" is "revealed" (not "is destroyed"--that comes much later in the "chronology," namely at v.8b's "MANIFESTATION of His [Jesus'] presence / parousia" [when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him]), NOT at the point in time of v.1's event--the event which ONLY *WE* will experience/participate in: with/in His "presence / parousia" IN THE AIR... when WE (and WE ALONE) go "TO the meeting OF THE LORD in the air" (and NO ONE ELSE); Once THAT EVENT happens (our Rapture)... Enter vv.10-12, when "God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, in order that THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUEDEI..."

Why do you keep "embellishing" your posts with such clutter? Probably only to distract from the fact that you cannot defend your own claims.

I look forward to your meeting my challenge.

 

[OldSage]

The second letter is quite intriguing when you think about it. There is clearly an enemy in the camp:
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter............3 Don’t let anyone deceive you
Obviously a prophecy is something that would occur during fellowship, and comes from within the fellowship,
and to masquerade as a teaching of Paul, it would also have to come through a Church member.

At the end of the letter Paul has to make a big deal about signing the letter. This is obviously a big deal then.

And the last chapter is about bad elements in the Church. Paul finally says, somewhat confusingly:
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

Which sounds very much like:
"Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer"

 

[Omegatime]

Speaking of the second letter, I have found most likely the letters should have in in opposite order, 2nd letter first, then first letter. It was many centuries later when they determined which letters were to make up today's bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The second letter is quite intriguing when you think about it. There is clearly an enemy in the camp:
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter............3 Don’t let anyone deceive you
Obviously a prophecy is something that would occur during fellowship, and comes from within the fellowship,
and to masquerade as a teaching of Paul, it would also have to come through a Church member.

Now, can you explain what "coming of our Lord" and "gathered to Him" specifically refer to in v.1?

 

[Omegatime]

I have no doubt myself that the Day of the Lord happens after the 1260th day when the antichrist takes his seat in temple of God in Jerusalem. But to develop a true picture one must consider The 1335th Blessed Day of Daniel, Lord's coming as in days of Noah and Lot, and why was the Day of the Lord so terrible and glorius at same time.

 

[OldSage]

Now, can you explain what "coming of our Lord" and "gathered to Him" specifically refer to in v.1?

Yes. Paul is talking in the immediate to the Thessalonian Church. Circa 52AD.
The coming of Our Lord is the Lord taking revenge on his enemies, those of Israel
who rejected him and then persecuted the Church, and the gathering to him is the
assembling of the Church outside of the cauldron of Jerusalem and Judea whilst it burnt to the ground
fifteen years later in AD67-73.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes. Paul is talking in the immediate to the Thessalonian Church. Circa 52AD.
The coming of Our Lord is the Lord taking revenge on his enemies, those of Israel
who rejected him and then persecuted the Church, and the gathering to him is the
assembling of the Church outside of the cauldron of Jerusalem and Judea whilst it burnt to the ground
fifteen years later in AD67-73.

Say what??!!

When is this "coming of the Lord" going to or when did it occur?

And what is this "cauldron of Jerusalem"? Where in the Bible is it mentioned?

Thanks.

 

[Rondonmon]

Okay, I travelled through your linguistic maze several times, but I don't see
the rebellion qualified in any way by anything preceding it

THE GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO "Christ Jesus" in verse 1, that's what is being pointed back at.

Had COVID 19 for a week, been kinda doing other things like getting a transfusion with the Antibody drugs, etc.

 

[Rondonmon]

You quoted 2 Thess 2:2+ but ignored v.1. I assumed nothing. Why are YOU presuming?

Will you take my challenge? Quote 2 Thess 2:1 like this, but put in the parentheses the words you think "coming" and "gathering" mean.

Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

OK, your turn.

You are the one putting Second Advent in there, not the scriptures !! If anyone equates the number of Jesus' coming to earth with his TWO ADVENTS then they are way off the deep end to start with. John ch. 20, Jesus tells Mary, touch me not fr I have not yet ascended unto the Father (to offer the sacrifice). Then 8 days later he tells Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, has this clicked yet? Jesus went to heaven, offered the Sacrifice as the High Priest would have sprinkled the blood, then he brought back the gift of the Holy Spirit with him for the day of Pentecost. So, you guys who love to COUNT THINGS but who never understand (seemingly) what you are counting kind of make me smh tbh. It's the same thing with the 1st Resurrection all I hear is all of those 1st Ressurtions have to happen at the exact same time, that's just bonkers, that just you guys not understanding how to divide the word of God. The First Resurrection is THE RIGHTEOUS, the 2nd Resurrection is the UNRIGHTEOUS 1000 years later.

Jesus will have only TWO ADVENTS on this Earth, as the Suffering Servant and as the Conquering King. But to try and say Jesus can thus only COME to this earth twice is just (sorry) WAY OUT THERE in la la land. So, Jesus will come to the clouds and call us home as Rev. 14:14 clearly shows, maybe the Clouds just stand for ALL of Heaven in literature in the bible which could be one of three Heavens, our Atmosphere, our Universes are the Heaven's beyond. Nevertheless, we go to be with Jesus at the Pre Trib Rapture. We DEPART just as 2 Thess. 2 says, and the ARTICLE points to a Gathering unto Jesus Christ in verse 1. It's not even that hard tbh, people just have skulls thicker than iron posts. They want to hear what they already believe.

No one is ever going to out debate me on a blog I wrote, period. If I understand it well enough to run a blog you might as well give it up. This is simple, not complex. Everyone will have attest to Jesus why they kept going down a wrongheaded path.

Its mind-boggling at the people who want to fight to their last breath to go through the 70th week tribulation, they will not be taught and they know they are right, even though it's obvious they are very, very wrong. Its a waste of time to be honest, and I wonder why the Holy Spirit can't teach these people, SMH. Something ain't right, I tried debating with them for years, now I refuse to converse with them, they have to know they are wrong and ot just stubborn, OR............You do the math.

 

[OldSage]

You are the one putting Second Advent in there, not the scriptures !! If anyone equates the number of Jesus' coming to earth with his TWO ADVENTS then they are way off the deep end to start with. John ch. 20, Jesus tells Mary, touch me not fr I have not yet ascended unto the Father (to offer the sacrifice). Then 8 days later he tells Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, has this clicked yet? Jesus went to heaven, offered the Sacrifice as the High Priest would have sprinkled the blood, then he brought back the gift of the Holy Spirit with him for the day of Pentecost. So, you guys who love to COUNT THINGS but who never understand (seemingly) what you are counting kind of make me smh tbh. It's the same thing with the 1st Resurrection all I hear is all of those 1st Ressurtions have to happen at the exact same time, that's just bonkers, that just you guys not understanding how to divide the word of God. The First Resurrection is THE RIGHTEOUS, the 2nd Resurrection is the UNRIGHTEOUS 1000 years later.

Jesus will have only TWO ADVENTS on this Earth, as the Suffering Servant and as the Conquering King. But to try and say Jesus can thus only COME to this earth twice is just (sorry) WAY OUT THERE in la la land. So, Jesus will come to the clouds and call us home as Rev. 14:14 clearly shows, maybe the Clouds just stand for ALL of Heaven in literature in the bible which could be one of three Heavens, our Atmosphere, our Universes are the Heaven's beyond. Nevertheless, we go to be with Jesus at the Pre Trib Rapture. We DEPART just as 2 Thess. 2 says, and the ARTICLE points to a Gathering unto Jesus Christ in verse 1. It's not even that hard tbh, people just have skulls thicker than iron posts. They want to hear what they already believe.

No one is ever going to out debate me on a blog I wrote, period. If I understand it well enough to run a blog you might as well give it up. This is simple, not complex. Everyone will have attest to Jesus why they kept going down a wrongheaded path.

Its mind-boggling at the people who want to fight to their last breath to go through the 70th week tribulation, they will not be taught and they know they are right, even though it's obvious they are very, very wrong. Its a waste of time to be honest, and I wonder why the Holy Spirit can't teach these people, SMH. Something ain't right, I tried debating with them for years, now I refuse to converse with them, they have to know they are wrong and ot just stubborn, OR............You do the math.

I hope you recover quickly Rondoman. Yes, I agree with you.
It's one of the causes of so much confusion - I mean so much confusion.
The difference between Jesus appearing to his followers, to the Church,
and the coming and presence of the Lord, which is a wholly different thing.

 

[OldSage]

Say what??!!

When is this "coming of the Lord" going to or when did it occur?

And what is this "cauldron of Jerusalem"? Where in the Bible is it mentioned?

Thanks.

The cauldron is a metaphor. Like when Jesus says 'I am coming with fire'.
The destruction of Judea and Jerusalem. It is mentioned all through scripture, starting in the Old Covenant.
I am not sure I have the will nor energy to take you though all of the Old Covenant texts right now.

The coming of the Lord is mentioned throughout the NT.
Here we have Jesus coming in wrath but the Church being delivered all in one sentence

1 Thessalonians 19 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[OldSage]

Say what??!!

When is this "coming of the Lord" going to or when did it occur?

And what is this "cauldron of Jerusalem"? Where in the Bible is it mentioned?

Thanks.

Here you go FG - but really this is milk doctrine; this should all be well-understood. I don't think it really needs any commentery does it? It just needs to be read and understood as God speaking, and defining the terms of the Old Covenant. (Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:35, Luke 21:22).

Maybe you don't understand that God can get extremely angry and that God means what he says?

Leviticus 26
27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.36 “‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’ sins they will waste away.

 

[Gideon300]

Although your final point is totally incorrect. Check Genesis 18&19 and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance.
Anyhow Paul is talking about Israel in Romans there so it is not to be mixed up with other themes.

I don't accept that Paul is talking solely about the Jews. He declares that homosexuality is a result of mankind's rejection of God. The Greeks and Romans were fine with homosexuality. It was obviously an issue in Abraham's time. That is before Israel existed, of course.

I've seen the same thing in my lifetime. When I first came to Australia, the UK was mocked for legalising homosexuality. Now, not only is it legal in both countries, Christians can be imprisoned for stating the scriptural objections to it. A few people have been arrested in the UK, but the court threw out the cases. It's still intimidation and persecution.

Laws have been passed but not enacted in Australia that will make it an offence to teach your children biblical principles. Australia is sinking into a morass of sin and the nation is suffering under God's judgement as a result.

This decline is the responsibility of the church. Christians are the true authority on the earth. If we fail to exercise our authority and power, we get exactly what is happening in what used to be Christian nations. We are supposed to be salt and light. In reality, the light is dim and the salt is too mixed with the dirt of the world to be of much use.