Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
never.
The born again are the only who are accepted by God., in the "time of the gentiles".
THey are not born again because they are "faithful"< they are born again because God is merciful to our sin.
We dont go to heaven by being good, we go to heaven because God has resolved our SIN issue that keeps you out of heaven, unless He resolves it with the Blood of Jesus.
So, it could be that you are talking about, or are confused about the Great Tribulation, and that is a different situation, regarding salvation.
But in the time of the Gentiles, with Paul as the gentile apostle, He teaches what He calls....>"MY Gospel".
And that is correlated with John 3:16.
This is Salvation as "the Gift of Righteousness", and "the Gift of Salvation", that is given to all who "believe".
John 3:16 says......... "whosoever will believe".......that is EVERYONE who WILL.
1 Timothy 2:4 SAYS that God wants EVERYONE.......ALL.........to believe.
The born again are the only who are accepted by God., in the "time of the gentiles".
THey are not born again because they are "faithful"< they are born again because God is merciful to our sin.
We dont go to heaven by being good, we go to heaven because God has resolved our SIN issue that keeps you out of heaven, unless He resolves it with the Blood of Jesus.
So, it could be that you are talking about, or are confused about the Great Tribulation, and that is a different situation, regarding salvation.
But in the time of the Gentiles, with Paul as the gentile apostle, He teaches what He calls....>"MY Gospel".
And that is correlated with John 3:16.
This is Salvation as "the Gift of Righteousness", and "the Gift of Salvation", that is given to all who "believe".
John 3:16 says......... "whosoever will believe".......that is EVERYONE who WILL.
1 Timothy 2:4 SAYS that God wants EVERYONE.......ALL.........to believe.
I know what you are insinuating by your sneaky question. He does NOT cause belief in anyone. If He did, the Bible would have said so. And man would not be accountable if God is pulling the strings. So the WAY you think, NO God did not cause me to believe.
However, in reality, God has already made the first move toward man, which is grace. He created man with a conscience with which to understand right and wrong. Rom 2:14,15
God's creation reveals His existence and divine power and attributes, so that man is without excuse.
Man's accountability proves that man is free to choose.
However, in reality, God has already made the first move toward man, which is grace. He created man with a conscience with which to understand right and wrong. Rom 2:14,15
God's creation reveals His existence and divine power and attributes, so that man is without excuse.
Man's accountability proves that man is free to choose.
Yes.
Also quite clear.
God, in His foreknowledge, knows who will end up in Heaven and who will end up Hell, but we do not have this knowledge. We must count them as brothers until their apostacy is manifested and revealed to us. Apostacy happens.
John
6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
You and I may always approach this from different angles, but at least we both agree that God is good and His Word is true. Keep your lamp trimmed and burning and full of oil, my brother.
Also quite clear.
God, in His foreknowledge, knows who will end up in Heaven and who will end up Hell, but we do not have this knowledge. We must count them as brothers until their apostacy is manifested and revealed to us. Apostacy happens.
John
6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
You and I may always approach this from different angles, but at least we both agree that God is good and His Word is true. Keep your lamp trimmed and burning and full of oil, my brother.
FreeGrace2 said:
This surely reveals an ignorance of God's Word. Let's see what Jesus said about His Father.
John 5:17 - In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Did you not read John 5:17?? There is no mention of "not resting". Jesus said PLAINLY that His Father "is ALWAYS AT HIS WORK to this very day".
I find that Calvinists frequently misread Scripture. As you've shown here.
What does this have to do with our discussion??
This is what you said in post 289: God ended all HIS work after the 6th Day of creation. See Genesis 2:1.
And I quoted the vese that refuted your claim.
This surely reveals an ignorance of God's Word. Let's see what Jesus said about His Father.
John 5:17 - In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Did you not read John 5:17?? There is no mention of "not resting". Jesus said PLAINLY that His Father "is ALWAYS AT HIS WORK to this very day".
I find that Calvinists frequently misread Scripture. As you've shown here.
What does this have to do with our discussion??
This is what you said in post 289: God ended all HIS work after the 6th Day of creation. See Genesis 2:1.
And I quoted the vese that refuted your claim.
Repeating a false claim is not the way to go. You CAN'T quote any verse that supports your claim.
Here's what I see. You keep repeating a false claim.
Man believes from His own heart. Rom 10:9. You don't see that.
God chooses believers to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4 You don't see that.
Election is to service, not salvation. 1 Cir 1:27,28. You don't see that.
Here's what I see. You keep repeating a false claim.
Man believes from His own heart. Rom 10:9. You don't see that.
God chooses believers to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4 You don't see that.
Election is to service, not salvation. 1 Cir 1:27,28. You don't see that.
God, from all eternity, chooses people on the basis of HIS foreknowledge. But, since you don't believe God chose you to believe or played any role in you coming to faith, that your coming to faith was solely your decision, perhaps (more likely than not) you're not saved after all. I mean, think about it: you don't give God any credit for choosing you and causing you to come to faith: you only have yourself to thank for that. If that isn't boasting, I don't know what is.
Furthermore, you claim all this head knowledge re: scripture saying says this, scripture doesn't say that, if it's not in the Word of God it isn't true, blah, blah, blah. I've provided scripture, but you're too proud to see it is true that God chooses whom HE wants to come to faith.
From all I have read from you, while you have lots of head knowledge, you don't know deep down in your heart (where it truly matters), that God chose you, that God predestinated you, that God foreknew you would come to faith as one of the elect unto salvation, and that because you were dead in your trespasses and sins you were unable to come to faith on your own, that God caused you to come to faith and pass from death to life and bring you to a place of regeneration. You made yourself the sovereign decision maker.
But, as I already stated,, since you don't believe God chose you to believe or played any role in you coming to faith, that you believe your coming to faith was solely your decision, then perhaps (more likely than not) you're not saved after all.
Boast all you want about what you think you know about scripture, and boast all you want about coming to faith on your own without God causing you to do so. That and 25 cents used to buy a cup of coffee, not anymore.
From all I have read from you, while you have lots of head knowledge, you don't know deep down in your heart (where it truly matters), that God chose you, that God predestinated you, that God foreknew you would come to faith as one of the elect unto salvation, and that because you were dead in your trespasses and sins you were unable to come to faith on your own, that God caused you to come to faith and pass from death to life and bring you to a place of regeneration. You made yourself the sovereign decision maker.
But, as I already stated,, since you don't believe God chose you to believe or played any role in you coming to faith, that you believe your coming to faith was solely your decision, then perhaps (more likely than not) you're not saved after all.
Boast all you want about what you think you know about scripture, and boast all you want about coming to faith on your own without God causing you to do so. That and 25 cents used to buy a cup of coffee, not anymore.
Please quote any verse that teaches this.
This is pathetic comment. I responded in the SAME WAY the jailer responded to Paul's message. Paul told him to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved."
I did the same thing.
Wrong. I don't give YOU any credit for your unbiblical claims. You just keep spewing Calvinist talking points and have NOT YET provided any Scripture that supports those claims.
Actually, you don't what the Bible teaches. And you challenge my salvation?? Wow.
This is pathetic comment. I responded in the SAME WAY the jailer responded to Paul's message. Paul told him to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved."
I did the same thing.
Wrong. I don't give YOU any credit for your unbiblical claims. You just keep spewing Calvinist talking points and have NOT YET provided any Scripture that supports those claims.
Actually, you don't what the Bible teaches. And you challenge my salvation?? Wow.
You're really something. It's not "head knowledge". It's biblical knowledge. Which you obviously don't recognize.
The Bible says to "judge not, lest you be judged". And you just ignore Scripture and judge me.
What you have provided does NOT support what you claim.
How come you don't understand that "playing a role" isn't even close to "causing"???
That is God's plan, which you are totally unfamiliar with. That was Paul's answer to the jailer's question.
Pitiful comments because you are quite unfamiliar with the Bible. You are quite familiar with Calvinist talking points, though.
Where have I boasted? What I've done is quote or cite a LOT of Scripture. If you can find ANY post of mine where I "boasted" about my knowledge of the Bible, please show me and I will apologize.
All of your talking points aren't worth anything. They are unbiblical. But you seem quite oblivious to that fact.
What you have demonstrated is a serious lack of understanding of the Bible.
I have shown you verses that prove my point and you obviousy have rejected the truth.
That's on you.
God created man with the freedom to choose, freedom to believe or reject. And I've shown from the Bible verses that prove this.
You, otoh, can't provide ANY verse that says what you claim.
Think about it.
The Bible says to "judge not, lest you be judged". And you just ignore Scripture and judge me.
What you have provided does NOT support what you claim.
How come you don't understand that "playing a role" isn't even close to "causing"???
That is God's plan, which you are totally unfamiliar with. That was Paul's answer to the jailer's question.
Pitiful comments because you are quite unfamiliar with the Bible. You are quite familiar with Calvinist talking points, though.
Where have I boasted? What I've done is quote or cite a LOT of Scripture. If you can find ANY post of mine where I "boasted" about my knowledge of the Bible, please show me and I will apologize.
All of your talking points aren't worth anything. They are unbiblical. But you seem quite oblivious to that fact.
What you have demonstrated is a serious lack of understanding of the Bible.
I have shown you verses that prove my point and you obviousy have rejected the truth.
That's on you.
God created man with the freedom to choose, freedom to believe or reject. And I've shown from the Bible verses that prove this.
You, otoh, can't provide ANY verse that says what you claim.
Think about it.
Someone like yourself, completely spiritually dead from trespasses and sins, with the very core of your being penetrated by corruption, can not by yourself alone come alive to faith and salvation, especially when Lord Jesus said you can not come to Him "unless it is granted [you] by the Father.” John 6:65. God causes you to come to faith in Jesus.
Faith is a gift of God, and not something that you who are spiritually dead have for the Lord Jesus on your own, it is a gift imparted to you by God's grace.
Faith is a gift of God, and not something that you who are spiritually dead have for the Lord Jesus on your own, it is a gift imparted to you by God's grace.
Why do you keep repeating this garbage?
I never said God wasn't at work. But you deny the clear Scripture that God has already been at work for EVERYONE, not just your so-called "elect".
God created mankind with a conscience, with which to know right from wrong, and understand the gospel message.
God created mankind with the freedom to believe or reject the gospel message.
The Calvinist view reduces Almighty God to a mere puppet master or robot maker.
Please show me any verse that says this. I don't believe you.
Prove it from Scripture.
After your attempt, I will prove what "God's gift" refers to. It isn't faith.
I never said God wasn't at work. But you deny the clear Scripture that God has already been at work for EVERYONE, not just your so-called "elect".
God created mankind with a conscience, with which to know right from wrong, and understand the gospel message.
God created mankind with the freedom to believe or reject the gospel message.
The Calvinist view reduces Almighty God to a mere puppet master or robot maker.
Please show me any verse that says this. I don't believe you.
Prove it from Scripture.
After your attempt, I will prove what "God's gift" refers to. It isn't faith.
Yes, we are all dead in sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1), we are in a fallen state and none is righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10) but All are sinners (Romans 3:23) and we cannot save ourselves. It is only by the grace of God through faith that we are saved (Eph. 2:8-9) and that faith comes from hearing the word of God as in Romans 10:17. The truth that Jesus spoke as in John 8:28-30 resulted in the belief of many people and yet is the same truth that Jesus offers but others do not understand and even didn’t want to hear it John 8:43-47. The point of belief or unbelief speaks of either receiving or rejecting the word of truth. Faith comes but the responses of the people are twofold that is either to accept or reject it (John 6:63-64)
Another thing is that the bible says “whosoever believeth” John 3:16 not as you are saying as “anyone that does come to faith”. We don’t come to faith, rather faith comes to those who hear the gospel of truth. Ephesians 1:13. When describing God something like “guide, and works in our hearts and minds…” I would rather use the Omniscient God so it seems to me there are certain words that need to define and apply to the context being used as well.
And here it is, which you may try to be your proof text to the question I asked but have we really understood what it means? As I’ve read your previous post, what you are trying to explain with the conviction of the Holy Spirit is to convince in the sense to “persuade to believe” just like you are presenting to me, you wanted me to believe what you believe. That the Spirt works to convince sinners to come to faith. I believe the precise word would have been “reproved” rather than convince or convict as they may differ in what the context entails. Your proof text must be understood in the light of its context and is never to be understood just like you are saying. The Holy Spirit works here is to reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. It means the Holy Spirit expresses disapproval of the actions, conduct, or beliefs of many people. This point us in John 16:2 when Jesus said that his disciples will be put out of the synagogues when the time that killing them will be a great service to God. Note that Jesus speaks of the “time cometh” refer to Christ going away and the Comforter will take place. Jesus said speaking of those people who think (Judgment) he is doing God’s service (righteousness) by way of killing (sin) his disciples. Will he convince the sinners in the sense, he will persuade them? The sense will fail when it comes to persuade people of their righteousness and persuade the world of judgment. In the fallen nature of man receives not the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14) as every staunch believer of Calvin usually say and now using it as a staunch believer of God’s word. What made us alive as Eph. 2:1, 5 says? It is hearing and believing the gospel of truth. The word of God brings life to whoever believes, for the word of God has the quickening power and spirit. Hebrews 4:12; John 6:63.
John 16:13 refers to his disciples except for Judas Iscariot who has gone out that night (John 13:30-31). The work of guidance is upon every believer and has nothing to do with the “elect” when even the word “elect” is never used in the context. "Guide" is different from the word convict or the precise word "reprove". A guide is one who leads or shows the way and is applicable to those who already believe.
Another thing is that the bible says “whosoever believeth” John 3:16 not as you are saying as “anyone that does come to faith”. We don’t come to faith, rather faith comes to those who hear the gospel of truth. Ephesians 1:13. When describing God something like “guide, and works in our hearts and minds…” I would rather use the Omniscient God so it seems to me there are certain words that need to define and apply to the context being used as well.
And here it is, which you may try to be your proof text to the question I asked but have we really understood what it means? As I’ve read your previous post, what you are trying to explain with the conviction of the Holy Spirit is to convince in the sense to “persuade to believe” just like you are presenting to me, you wanted me to believe what you believe. That the Spirt works to convince sinners to come to faith. I believe the precise word would have been “reproved” rather than convince or convict as they may differ in what the context entails. Your proof text must be understood in the light of its context and is never to be understood just like you are saying. The Holy Spirit works here is to reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. It means the Holy Spirit expresses disapproval of the actions, conduct, or beliefs of many people. This point us in John 16:2 when Jesus said that his disciples will be put out of the synagogues when the time that killing them will be a great service to God. Note that Jesus speaks of the “time cometh” refer to Christ going away and the Comforter will take place. Jesus said speaking of those people who think (Judgment) he is doing God’s service (righteousness) by way of killing (sin) his disciples. Will he convince the sinners in the sense, he will persuade them? The sense will fail when it comes to persuade people of their righteousness and persuade the world of judgment. In the fallen nature of man receives not the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14) as every staunch believer of Calvin usually say and now using it as a staunch believer of God’s word. What made us alive as Eph. 2:1, 5 says? It is hearing and believing the gospel of truth. The word of God brings life to whoever believes, for the word of God has the quickening power and spirit. Hebrews 4:12; John 6:63.
John 16:13 refers to his disciples except for Judas Iscariot who has gone out that night (John 13:30-31). The work of guidance is upon every believer and has nothing to do with the “elect” when even the word “elect” is never used in the context. "Guide" is different from the word convict or the precise word "reprove". A guide is one who leads or shows the way and is applicable to those who already believe.