Paul's Instructions to Timothy in how to be a Minister of God's Word

[Kidron]

Again, basically, I agree. However, that doesn't do anything to refute by statement that one cannot truly prophesy except by the Holy Spirit, while on can truly preach or teach without the Holy Spirit, for the message is the truth, and the word of God has power. So, let's not get any further off topic.

If you want to open a new Thread and discuss "prophesy" by the Holy Spirit, then that is good, as in this Thread, the verses the OP used explained that it was not Timothy who was uttering the prophesy, but that one was uttered by someone, concerning Timothy.
This led to "what is Timothy's" gift, as a sub topic.

 

[Aaron56]

First, there's nothing in this passage about tongues, either explicitly or implicitly. All we know is Timothy received a gift when the elders laid hands on him and spoke a word of prophecy over him. In all likelihood it was the gift of evangelism. For example 2 Timothy 4:5 says:

As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.​

​

1 Thessalonians records Timothy as an apostle. Yet, he, like Paul, would have known that all doma gifts in Ephesians 4 we needed for the saints and certainly for the ministers of the gospel. We know Paul was a teacher before he was an apostle and we know he was a shepherd (pastor) to his spiritual sons, Timothy and Titus. Paul also demonstrated a prophetic grace to the churches and in Hebrews (which I believe he wrote). Paul knew that his acceptable form of ministry was to let the Father live through him. Timothy would have been raised in the Lord, by Paul, with these standards.

 

[AandW]

"utterance", = Preaching, teaching, ..... = "To Evangelize".......= Timothy the "evangelist".

Also, dont confuse your "prayer language" with "the Gift of Tongues", as they are not the same.

Good Post, but we're discussing a Prophetic emphasis here.

 

[AandW]

First, there's nothing in this passage about tongues, either explicitly or implicitly. All we know is Timothy received a gift when the elders laid hands on him and spoke a word of prophecy over him. In all likelihood it was the gift of evangelism. For example 2 Timothy 4:5 says:

As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.​

​

That is more than likely what happened

 

[AandW]

Nothing in the passage suggests that the gift which Timothy received was that of speaking in tongues. Nothing in Scripture conflates "prophetic utterance" with speaking in tongues. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 14 specifically distinguishes them.


No, he isn't. The verse says "gift... bestowed THROUGH prophetic utterance", not "gift... bestowed from prophetic utterance". He is speaking about one specific gift in one specific case given to one specific person; there is no hint of the event being normative.



The passage does not say that. It is a personal message to Timothy regarding Paul's desire for Timothy. While we can reasonably conclude that God wants His 'ministers' to be filled with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing normative about a gift bestowed through prophetic utterance.

It's a bad idea to make doctrine from narrative passages.

Excellent Viewpoint

 

[AandW]

You are misunderstanding the words of Paul. There is nothing in this passage about speaking in tongues. "Prophetic utterances" were divinely revealed words spoken in the apostolic churches while the spiritual gift of prophecy was still in effect. That is no longer the case, since Scripture is complete. So a quotation from the Bible would be equivalent to those prophetic utterances. As to the laying on of hands by the presbytery, it would mean that the elders of the church prayed over Timothy. That would still be valid provided the elders were genuine elders being led by the Spirit.

Scripture being complete has no bearing on whether a Gift of the Holy Spirit still is active or not.

 

[AandW]

excuse me A & W, but is your op a copy/paste from some other site?

It's a misuse of Scripture.

A lot of Doctrines are based upon such an example as this Thread is intended.

Good to see the few who have participated have gone through Timothy to get a better idealism towards Prophetic Utterance from Paul's viewpoint.

And good to see one pointed out Paul is not speaking about ordinary utterances, but Prophetic Utterance, which is not Speaking in Tongues.

 

[SophieT]

It's a misuse of Scripture.

A lot of Doctrines are based upon such an example as this Thread is intended.

Good to see the few who have participated have gone through Timothy to get a better idealism towards Prophetic Utterance from Paul's viewpoint.

And good to see one pointed out Paul is not speaking about ordinary utterances, but Prophetic Utterance, which is not Speaking in Tongues.

a misuse of scripture...that isn't what I asked though., where did you get this from? is what I asked

A lot of Doctrines are based upon such an example as this Thread is intended.

this is quite murky., what are you intending and which doctrines, if you don't mind

 

[Kidron]

Good Post, but we're discussing a Prophetic emphasis here.

Thank you for your comment.

However, here is the issue with the OP's post.

Quote.....""""
""""""Paul explains how Timothy has this Gift, [it was BESTOWED on him through PROPHETIC UTTERANCE
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] """"""


So, the problem is......... the question is trying to prove that Timothy was speaking in Tongues, and in fact, He wasn't.
So, the OP says.......>"Teaching Timothy how to continue speaking in Tongues"....
And that is just completely made up.

The 2nd issue with the OP's ideas, is that they are trying to prove that "utterance" is "speaking in Tongues".

So that's error #2.

The OP needs to learn what "speaking in Tongues" actually is, and then they wont write any more confused Threads like this one, hopefully.

 

[AandW]

a misuse of scripture...that isn't what I asked though., where did you get this from? is what I asked

I did see it elsewhere where it's being used correctly.

I thought how would it go over, [knowing somethings like the complete extent of what Paul could mean Prophetic Utterances to be from his explanations of related materials and Gifts from his letters to the Corinthians].....could people see something that wasn't really there?

Satan is known for quoting, misquoting, and very subtly like you can easily miss it, Scripture that people believe as Gospel.

False Preachers/Teachers can do the very same.

We have numerous threads relating to Kundalini Spirits, Demonic possessed actions of people claiming to be of Christ, and this all relates to how a Verse can be ever slightly manipulated and argued over miss translation and end up passing as Gospel.

this is quite murky., what are you intending and which doctrines, if you don't mind

Well look at Mormonism and JW's.

They can take same exact Verse and make it read to where nothing is actually relating to what we read.

These new Movements like Seeker Friendly Churches are doing the same thing.

Followers aren't reading the Bible, they're believing the Bible is being taught verbatim by the False Teacher.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Scripture being complete has no bearing on whether a Gift of the Holy Spirit still is active or not.

It very definitely has a bearing. Prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all ceased with the completion of Scripture (as Paul had prophesied). Other spiritual gifts related to the apostles also ceased after they passed away. There are no more apostles, since the Bible specifies that there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Kidron]

It very definitely has a bearing. Prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all ceased with the completion of Scripture (as Paul had prophesied). Other spiritual gifts related to the apostles also ceased after they passed away. There are no more apostles, since the Bible specifies that there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb.

The teaching "when that which is perfect is come"...... is used by some denominations to try to prove that many of the "gifts" have ended.

So, as no one knows what the "perfect" actually is, we have to leave room......
And a person says...>its the BIBLE", or "its the Holy Spirit"........and ok..........but, scripture does not testify to that, but some denominations do.

Here is something that has not ended.......

"signs are for the Jews".......... 1 Corinthians 1: 22-24.
And how do you know?
Because Jews haven't ended, and that verse was given "in the time of the Gentiles', by the Gentile Apostle.. and the time of the Gentiles has not ended.
So, that means that "signs" are still in effect, because Jews are still here, "in the time of the Gentiles'.

 

[SophieT]

I did see it elsewhere where it's being used correctly.

I thought how would it go over, [knowing somethings like the complete extent of what Paul could mean Prophetic Utterances to be from his explanations of related materials and Gifts from his letters to the Corinthians].....could people see something that wasn't really there?

Satan is known for quoting, misquoting, and very subtly like you can easily miss it, Scripture that people believe as Gospel.

False Preachers/Teachers can do the very same.

We have numerous threads relating to Kundalini Spirits, Demonic possessed actions of people claiming to be of Christ, and this all relates to how a Verse can be ever slightly manipulated and argued over miss translation and end up passing as Gospel.




Well look at Mormonism and JW's.

They can take same exact Verse and make it read to where nothing is actually relating to what we read.

These new Movements like Seeker Friendly Churches are doing the same thing.

Followers aren't reading the Bible, they're believing the Bible is being taught verbatim by the False Teacher.

What are you talking about? (scratches her head and looks perplexed)

I did see it elsewhere where it's being used correctly.

what did you see and what is the 'IT'?

I mean seriously, I am truly puzzled by whatever it is you are going on about. please help me out

 

[SophieT]

It very definitely has a bearing. Prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all ceased with the completion of Scripture (as Paul had prophesied). Other spiritual gifts related to the apostles also ceased after they passed away. There are no more apostles, since the Bible specifies that there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb.

we agree on so much, but not this

but then we have had that conversation. I am not into the continuation of 'Apostles'...the other day, I saw where a woman was calling herself an Apostle. I don't think so

I don't even really know what this thread is about...don't think I am going to get a straight answer either LOL!

if you would not mind, maybe enlighten me?

 

[Kidron]

we agree on so much, but not this

but then we have had that conversation. I am not into the continuation of 'Apostles'...the other day, I saw where a woman was calling herself an Apostle. I don't think so

I don't even really know what this thread is about...don't think I am going to get a straight answer either LOL!

if you would not mind, maybe enlighten me?

Ummmmm.
The OP is a Charismatic or Pentecostal, and they wrote a Thread that is trying to teach that the elders who gave "utterance", regarding Timothy's "gift" is Timothy speaking in Tongues.
That's the "main thrust" of the Thread.

So, yeah, the OP's Thread is about as confused as a monkey in a Mall, and that's not going to change any time soon.

 

[SophieT]

Ummmmm.
The OP is a Charismatic or Pentecostal, and they wrote a Thread that is trying to teach that the elders who gave "utterance", regarding Timothy's "gift" is Timothy speaking in Tongues.
So, yeah, the OP's Thread is about as confused as a monkey in a Mall, and that's not going to change any time soon.

so it's not just me....

thanks!

 

[Kidron]

so it's not just me....

thanks!

Not at all.
Even trying to explain this OP's concept has left me a wee bit dizzy and needing some liquid refreshment.

-@ later

 

[SophieT]

Not at all.
Even trying to explain this OP's concept has left me a wee bit dizzy and needing some liquid refreshment.

-@ later

definitely stay hydrated

 

[AandW]

It very definitely has a bearing. Prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge all ceased with the completion of Scripture (as Paul had prophesied). Other spiritual gifts related to the apostles also ceased after they passed away. There are no more apostles, since the Bible specifies that there are only 12 apostles of the Lamb.

And since not [ALL] Prophecy has been fulfilled, the Gifts are still active because Scripture is fulfilled after the Great White Throne Judgement! Which that has yet to happen.

 

[AandW]

What are you talking about? (scratches her head and looks perplexed)



what did you see and what is the 'IT'?

I mean seriously, I am truly puzzled by whatever it is you are going on about. please help me out

You can't even remember what you've asked me in order to know the answers I have given to you.