Do Animals Enter Condemnation or Paradise?

[Ruby123]

She must be one big, bad, cat!

Well she passed away a few years ago. She was a stray that decided to visit me and stayed. This cat was much like her except mine wore a pink pearl necklace ( a bracelet I used as her collar) She was also mischievous, which I like.

 

[Lanolin]

Did you baptise your cat? All ours were.

 

[Mary84]

"
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatted calf together; and a little child shall lead them."
"And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox."

Isaiah 11:6-7

 

[posthuman]

in other conversations, it came up that someone was able to follow this thread and come away from it thinking there is no Biblical evidence that animals have spirits.

i suppose i did a poor job, then.
that needs to be redeemed.



so, here, look:

..every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.​

(Genesis 7:14-15)​

​

And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.​

(Genesis 7:21-22)​

​

here we have every kind of animal described. everything that was on the ark, and everything that died from the flood.
it is written that every single one of them has "the breath of life" - exactly what God breathed into Adam, and he became a living soul, in Genesis 2:7

we have previously covered that God calls animals living souls - at least i hope we have. i was mostly posting from a phone here and truncating my responses because it's hard to type and format posts on a phone. so if i may, briefly:
the phrase in Genesis 2:7, that our pagan-language English translations put as "living soul" in Genesis 2:7, is exactly the same not-pagan Hebrew phrase in {Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 1:30, 9:4, 9:5, 9:10, 9:`12, 9:15, 9:16} - and in all those places it's talking about animals. God calls them living souls. pagan-language-English Bibles only translate exactly the same word as soul when it refers to humans, IMO for no other reason but that because men are vain. let me give more:

I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals
(Ecclesiastes 3:18)
​

the wisest man that ever lived says humans are animals; that God is doing things to prove to us that we are animals. if we are souls, they are souls. if their souls can be annihilated, so can ours. if our souls are eternal, their souls are eternal.
bottom line: animals are living souls just like humans are.



now back to the animals having spirit: Genesis 7 shows they have exactly the same breath of life that man has. the scripture makes no distinction: just as Solomon did not, Moses puts man and beast alike as living souls with the breath of life, dying by the flood.
remember, we have all agreed, animals have no sin - they are subjected to frustration not willingly, but in hope of Him who subjected them ((Romans 8)).
two more witness of the same:

And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.
(Genesis 6:17)

All have the same breath​

(Ecclesiastes 3:19)​

​

animals are created with exactly the same breath of life, and living souls just as humans are.
so what does the breath of life have to do with animals having spirits? the Hebrew word in all these passages being translated "breath" is exactly the word "spirit" -- ruach. everywhere you see "spirit" in the Hebrew Bible, same word.
look closer at Genesis 7:22 again:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life​

​

not just breath of life, but breath of the spirit of life. in Hebrew there is another word for 'breath' that doesn't also mean spirt: neshamah. this phrase in Genesis 7:22 describing man and other animals is "the neshamah of the ruach of life" -- the breath of the spirit of life
so all these things in scripture where God says animals have the breath of life, the very same breath of life mankind has? they are saying animals have exactly the same spirit of life that mankind has.

okay!
no more excuses to read this and ever say animals have no more souls or that they have no spirits!

 

[Magenta]

Mark 16:15

 

[Cygnus]

in other conversations, it came up that someone was able to follow this thread and come away from it thinking there is no Biblical evidence that animals have spirits.

i suppose i did a poor job, then.
that needs to be redeemed.



so, here, look:

..every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.​

(Genesis 7:14-15)​

​

And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.​

(Genesis 7:21-22)​

​

here we have every kind of animal described. everything that was on the ark, and everything that died from the flood.
it is written that every single one of them has "the breath of life" - exactly what God breathed into Adam, and he became a living soul, in Genesis 2:7

we have previously covered that God calls animals living souls - at least i hope we have. i was mostly posting from a phone here and truncating my responses because it's hard to type and format posts on a phone. so if i may, briefly:
the phrase in Genesis 2:7, that our pagan-language English translations put as "living soul" in Genesis 2:7, is exactly the same not-pagan Hebrew phrase in {Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 1:30, 9:4, 9:5, 9:10, 9:`12, 9:15, 9:16} - and in all those places it's talking about animals. God calls them living souls. pagan-language-English Bibles only translate exactly the same word as soul when it refers to humans, IMO for no other reason but that because men are vain. let me give more:

I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals​

(Ecclesiastes 3:18)​

​

the wisest man that ever lived says humans are animals; that God is doing things to prove to us that we are animals. if we are souls, they are souls. if their souls can be annihilated, so can ours. if our souls are eternal, their souls are eternal.
bottom line: animals are living souls just like humans are.



now back to the animals having spirit: Genesis 7 shows they have exactly the same breath of life that man has. the scripture makes no distinction: just as Solomon did not, Moses puts man and beast alike as living souls with the breath of life, dying by the flood.
remember, we have all agreed, animals have no sin - they are subjected to frustration not willingly, but in hope of Him who subjected them ((Romans 8)).
two more witness of the same:

And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.​

(Genesis 6:17)​

​

All have the same breath​

(Ecclesiastes 3:19)​

​

animals are created with exactly the same breath of life, and living souls just as humans are.
so what does the breath of life have to do with animals having spirits? the Hebrew word in all these passages being translated "breath" is exactly the word "spirit" -- ruach. everywhere you see "spirit" in the Hebrew Bible, same word.
look closer at Genesis 7:22 again:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life​

​

not just breath of life, but breath of the spirit of life. in Hebrew there is another word for 'breath' that doesn't also mean spirt: neshamah. this phrase in Genesis 7:22 describing man and other animals is "the neshamah of the ruach of life" -- the breath of the spirit of life
so all these things in scripture where God says animals have the breath of life, the very same breath of life mankind has? they are saying animals have exactly the same spirit of life that mankind has.

okay!
no more excuses to read this and ever say animals have no more souls or that they have no spirits!

After thinking about this more I would say that I agree animals have the "Breath of Life", however, I don't know if I believe they go to Heaven like we do. In Genesis 9 GOD give animals to Man as food. GOD goes on and says that whoever takes a Mans life his life will be required whether it is Man or Beast. I don't see the same said about animals. In my mind, there is a difference between Man and animals. Are there animals in Heaven? Fiery Horses were sent to Elijah, in Revelations Jesus and his Army returns on horses.

 

[posthuman]

After thinking about this more I would say that I agree animals have the "Breath of Life", however, I don't know if I believe they go to Heaven like we do. In Genesis 9 GOD give animals to Man as food. GOD goes on and says that whoever takes a Mans life his life will be required whether it is Man or Beast. I don't see the same said about animals. In my mind, there is a difference between Man and animals. Are there animals in Heaven? Fiery Horses were sent to Elijah, in Revelations Jesus and his Army returns on horses.

i just want to point out how rare it is that someone in a Christian forum 'thinks about it more' and changes their mind about something.
we all post scripture after scripture and make argument over argument and at the end of the day, most of us hardly give any thought about what people who don't share our perspective are saying. we're here because we're passionate; we love the Lord and we care a lot about our faith, and that's beautiful but it also means we're generally entrenched in our thoughts about what we've been taught. we expect that other people can be wrong very often but it's not very often that we admit that we can be.

so i am really thanking God even for this small thing, seeing that you agree animals have the breath of life, and that you took the time to come back to this thread and say so.

much love ♥

 

[Cygnus]

i just want to point out how rare it is that someone in a Christian forum 'thinks about it more' and changes their mind about something.
we all post scripture after scripture and make argument over argument and at the end of the day, most of us hardly give any thought about what people who don't share our perspective are saying. we're here because we're passionate; we love the Lord and we care a lot about our faith, and that's beautiful but it also means we're generally entrenched in our thoughts about what we've been taught. we expect that other people can be wrong very often but it's not very often that we admit that we can be.

so i am really thanking God even for this small thing, seeing that you agree animals have the breath of life, and that you took the time to come back to this thread and say so.

much love ♥

Not sure If my position has changed or if it has developed, I am leaning to the latter. This is not a topic that I have really given much thought about. I find it to be a good exercise to learn. I want to keep an open mind, but not so open my brains fall out. Things I once believed have fallen away. For some reason the exchange Jesus had with Nicodemus in John 3 always sticks in my mind and resonates. We are told to Seek, Ask, and Knock and then the Dark Glass in 1 Corinthians all seem to say the same thing. We are mere Men and don't know it all!! You may find some doctrinal entrenchment I still may have, but I have tried to let all that go. Jesus admonished us about anger in Matthew 5, I think against fellow believers it is more hideous.

I don't mean to ramble but thank you for your kind words...

 

[posthuman]

Not sure If my position has changed or if it has developed, I am leaning to the latter. This is not a topic that I have really given much thought about. I find it to be a good exercise to learn. I want to keep an open mind, but not so open my brains fall out. Things I once believed have fallen away. For some reason the exchange Jesus had with Nicodemus in John 3 always sticks in my mind and resonates. We are told to Seek, Ask, and Knock and then the Dark Glass in 1 Corinthians all seem to say the same thing. We are mere Men and don't know it all!! You may find some doctrinal entrenchment I still may have, but I have tried to let all that go. Jesus admonished us about anger in Matthew 5, I think against fellow believers it is more hideous.

I don't mean to ramble but thank you for your kind words...

i love rambling; it's so honest -- like i'm really hearing from 'the real you' and not some persona a person wants to project

i absolutely agree about what you said, that being angry with brothers and sisters in Christ is 'more hideous' than having similar feelings toward those outside of Christ. we're all one body

i also wholly agree that 'developed' is more accurate than 'changed' -- and sorry for my inaccurate language when i first replied. i'm nowhere near perfect either, and there's evidence of it.
i have to admit -- i have thought about this topic more than probably most people have, and a lot of it has to do with me having had pets all my life and having thought about them as family all my life, too. and as i said earlier in the thread ((i think?)) what ultimately prompted me to make this thread is that my pastor decided to start teaching on this topic for a while, and through his decision i was moved to also bring it up here. i call him my pastor because ((unlike a lot of other 'preachers')) he has been able to change my mind about things that i used to have beliefs/opinions about -- by explaining scripture well, in the most God-honoring way he can manage -- on this topic we were happily on the same page and he has added to my understanding -- overall, what i believe is that God moved him to bring this topic up, so i figured i ought to also bring it up here in the forums with the people i have come to know and love.
because there is One head of the church, Christ Jesus, and He leads my pastor, and He leads me, and He leads all of you. so it seemed right that it's something i should open up discussion on here, so we can all add to each other, as He has given us all gifts and portions of His spirit for one another.

anyhow thanks for your reply; i rambled a bit there too for ya

 

[BillG]

Toram

i love rambling; it's so honest -- like i'm really hearing from 'the real you' and not some persona a person wants to project

i absolutely agree about what you said, that being angry with brothers and sisters in Christ is 'more hideous' than having similar feelings toward those outside of Christ. we're all one body

i also wholly agree that 'developed' is more accurate than 'changed' -- and sorry for my inaccurate language when i first replied. i'm nowhere near perfect either, and there's evidence of it.
i have to admit -- i have thought about this topic more than probably most people have, and a lot of it has to do with me having had pets all my life and having thought about them as family all my life, too. and as i said earlier in the thread ((i think?)) what ultimately prompted me to make this thread is that my pastor decided to start teaching on this topic for a while, and through his decision i was moved to also bring it up here. i call him my pastor because ((unlike a lot of other 'preachers')) he has been able to change my mind about things that i used to have beliefs/opinions about -- by explaining scripture well, in the most God-honoring way he can manage -- on this topic we were happily on the same page and he has added to my understanding -- overall, what i believe is that God moved him to bring this topic up, so i figured i ought to also bring it up here in the forums with the people i have come to know and love.
because there is One head of the church, Christ Jesus, and He leads my pastor, and He leads me, and He leads all of you. so it seemed right that it's something i should open up discussion on here, so we can all add to each other, as He has given us all gifts and portions of His spirit for one another.

anyhow thanks for your reply; i rambled a bit there too for ya

To ramble is good.
Over here we say "Chew the cud"

It's just discudding.
I love chewing the cud with my Christian friends and non Christian friends.

I have learned from others but also others have learned from me.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

The spirit of man goes up while the spirit of animals go downward to the Earth.


This looks like a rhetorical question.


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV


From the previous posts, I believe that there will be animals in the new Earth maybe, since animals don't go to heaven.

 

[Poinsetta]

The spirit of man goes up while the spirit of animals go downward to the Earth.


This looks like a rhetorical question.


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV


From the previous posts, I believe that there will be animals in the new Earth maybe, since animals don't go to heaven.

im not happy with this answer

 

[Tinkerbell725]

im not happy with this answer

Sorry. 😢

It is what the Bible says. I miss my pets who died to. But in the new heaven and earth everything will be new. We will not remember the memories of our pets anymore and we will not miss them anymore.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

im not happy with this answer

It's ok to be sad. But I am very sure that what God wants for us to have in heaven is a million times better than the things we want for ourselves. I hope that will cheer you up.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV

 

[HisKid]

Well? Do animals get thrown into the lake of fire, or..?
Why do they die at all? Do they die the second death, and why/why not?
Do animals sin?



Please indicate how answers are justified through scripture, and thanks =]

Only the spirit of humans lives forever. Humans are made in the image of God. Animals are not. When animals die, they just die.. just like a bee, a bird or a cockroach.

 

[posthuman]

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV

it's a question The Teacher answers in the conclusion of his book:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)
​

the spirit of the animal does not go down to the earth; it returns to God who gave it.

 

[posthuman]

Only the spirit of humans lives forever. Humans are made in the image of God. Animals are not. When animals die, they just die.. just like a bee, a bird or a cockroach.

throughout the thread, we have established through scripture that

• animals have spirits
• animals are living souls
• animals have the same breath of life that people do
• the spirit returns to God when the body dies
• humans are no more than animals
• non-human animals have no sin

the body of every animal dies and returns to dust
the only sense in which a soul or spirit is said to 'die' according to the Bible is 'the second death' which is because of sin.
since a bird or a bee does not have sin, there is no scriptural basis to believe they die a second death - they don't go to hell, in other words.

on those things everyone who followed all the way through the thread pretty much agrees.

the only point that there seemed to still be any disagreement about is whether the soul of a sinless animal is annihilated.
since animals have souls just like us, have spirits just like us, have the breath of life just like us, have bodies made of dust just like us BUT do not have sin as we do, why would God destroy their sinless souls eternally when their body returns to dust?

 

[HisKid]

throughout the thread, we have established through scripture that

• animals have spirits
• animals are living souls
• animals have the same breath of life that people do
• the spirit returns to God when the body dies
• humans are no more than animals
• non-human animals have no sin

the body of every animal dies and returns to dust
the only sense in which a soul or spirit is said to 'die' according to the Bible is 'the second death' which is because of sin.
since a bird or a bee does not have sin, there is no scriptural basis to believe they die a second death - they don't go to hell, in other words.

on those things everyone who followed all the way through the thread pretty much agrees.

the only point that there seemed to still be any disagreement about is whether the soul of a sinless animal is annihilated.
since animals have souls just like us, have spirits just like us, have the breath of life just like us, have bodies made of dust just like us BUT do not have sin as we do, why would God destroy their sinless souls eternally when their body returns to dust?

Humans are not animals. Humans are humans, made in the image of God. Only humans on earth can sin. Animals are not capable of sin. Animals have instinct, just like all animals, insects, etc. Animals do not have eternal spirits like humans do. Just because a bunch of people here agree with this nonsense doesn't make it true.

 

[posthuman]

Humans are not animals.

I said in my heart,
“Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are animals.”
(Ecclesiastes 3:18)​

 

[posthuman]

Animals do not have eternal spirits like humans do.

Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals
(Ecclesiastes 3:19)

All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
(Genesis 7:22)
​

God declares us to be no different.
we all have the same breath of the spirit of life.