Could the tribulation start this year?

Pilgrimshope · Aug 19, 2021

yes I think that I’ve learned not to think too much and believe instead see your thinking how it went away from what God said and went to interpreting daniels vision ? Which had to do with the abomination of desolation ? You’ve jumped subject matter

the tribulation is something Jesus preached and taught that many of his disciples would have to endure because they were in the world yet

see how he is preparing them to go through this great tribulation ?

“And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:5-13, 24-26‬ ‭

you see he’s telling them up front they will go through these things he’s preparing them to endure instructing then how to get through it

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:14-17, 19-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how he is readying those who will hear him to endure the trial ahead ?

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my thing is to go back to Daniel and try to reject this for the sake of my own interpretation of Daniels seventy weeks , which were shortened anyhow , doesn’t change what God said when he came to speak these truths they were all prophecy of of beforehand it never came clear until Christ arrived the rest was witnessing it was coming Christ revealed it all

the seventy weeks had to do with the messiah being cut off .

Pilgrimshope · Aug 19, 2021

lamad said:

the wrath that’s been here for thousands of years ?

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Icedaisey · Aug 19, 2021

Imagine what is now the global tribulation attributed to the acts of man and how bad it is. Then God, who determined before the world was founded, whom would be saved, come to him, and whom would reject him, is going to pour his wrath upon that unbelieving world he predestined and in his own good time.

It'll make what is happening now look like a vacation.
All as God wills.

Why worry? What can we do to stop it? Nothing.
Live your life! Love your living.
We could all be wrong about what comes next.

Ahwatukee · Aug 19, 2021

lamad said:

Good to meet you, Lamad,

I agree with you in that, the world will know that something has happened because of the gathering of the church. But the way in which they will know that that the 70th week begins, will be when that ruler, the antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, which I'm sure will happen in close proximity to the gathering of the church.

Also, the announcement at the 6th seal that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it" is not the starting point of the Day of the Lord. It is a general reference to God's wrath as a whole, which includes the first six seals which will have already taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments which are yet to come from that time frame. In support of this, I would also remind you that the announcement of God's wrath is also found at the sounding of the 7th trumpet:

=====================================
We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty,

the One who is and who was,

because You have taken Your great power

and have begun to reign.

The nations were enraged,

and Your wrath has come.
====================================

The words here at the 7th trumpet "Your wrath has come" have the same meaning as those of the 6th seal, which is referring to God's wrath in its fullness, i.e. the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments combined.

Also if you will notice, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments. He is therefore responsible for all of the destruction and fatalities which will ensue. After all, He is the One who tramples the winepress of God's wrath.

The reason that someone came up with God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal is so they can put the church on the earth during the first six seals, which is false! For they are also included as being a part of God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of seven judgments and should not be divided be leaving out the first six seals as not being wrath. With just the accumulation of the first four seals, a fourth of the earth's population will have been killed, which again, the Lamb is responsible for because He is the One opening them.

randyk · Aug 19, 2021

lamad said:

The problem is, you read the book of Revelation like an itinerary of events that God wants us to figure out like a puzzle. That is insulting to Deity, in my opinion. The 70th Week took place immediately after the 69th Week, which was 2000 years ago. The things to be fulfilled in the 70th Week were fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Christ, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the same generation. This is exactly what Jesus predicted in his Olivet Discourse. But futurists want *everything* to be about the endtimes, so that they can work out their prophecy calendars, and predict who the Antichrist is, and what 666 is. It's absurd.

One thing is certain. There will be no Pretrib Rapture. Paul specifically taught against this when he said Christ cannot come back for his Church unless Antichrist is revealed first. And then Christ comes back in the context of Antichrist's defeat, just as it is portrayed in Dan 7. But you may not believe it because Pretrib had gained popularity in a former Christian country hungry for promises of escape from trouble. Corrie ten Boom said that is terrible. Pat Robertson rejects it. Walter Martin said it was bad doctrine. You get the picture? For 1830 years there was no Pretrib doctrine! Did God forget to share it for 1800 years with His Church? Or did Christian scholars just somehow miss the Pretrib Teaching in the book of Revelation?

TMS · Aug 20, 2021

randyk said:

Most of the protestant reformer come to the conclusion that the catholic church was the antichrist so .......Futurism was invented....
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy (500 page) commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming.

Many false teachings have resulted and one that is common today is the pretribulation rapture.
It is sad that many protestant churches have forgotten so many of their fundamental pillars.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Except there are NO verses that show Jesus taking any resurrected and raptued believers to heaven.

lamad said:

You are just repeating yourself. Jesus' return as King is His SECOND Advent. He comes with the clouds then.

And you have NOT shown any verse that shows Jesus taking any resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Why? Because there aren't any verses that show that.

The rapture occurs WITH the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that.

Good question. It doesn't take place before the Second Advent. And I can prove that.

Rev 19 mentions the Marriage supper AND Christ's Second Coming.

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

These are strange words for an event that supposed already occurred 7 years prior. "has come" and "has made herself ready" indicate what is about to occur, NOT what has already occurrerd.

Then the blue words. Why mention anything about those invited to the wedding IF it already occurred 7 years prior?

None of that makes sense. What does make sense is that all those in heaven are being prepared for the trip to earth for the Second Advent AND wedding supper, which is part of Christ's Millennial kingdom.

Note v.8 and the clothing given to the believers; "fine linen".

Now note what the army who accompanies the Lord to earth are wearing in v.14 - The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

All in the same breath (chapter). The believers in heaven will be given fine linen to wear for the wedding and they are wearing that fine linen when accompanying Christ to earth.

And Rev 20:4,5 proves that the resurrection is POST trib.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Huh? Where do you get that?

peldom10 · Aug 20, 2021

Blain said:

So I don't make threads often but when I do it is because I feel or believe something strongly and I personally think the tribulation could very well begin this year. For those of you who know I am a pretrib rapture believer and while I leave room for me being wrong and end up having to go through the tribulation I truly feel myself looking up more when I did my recent bible prophecy study.
And some of you may know as well I study biblical numerology as numbers are used all throughout the bible as if a hidden language and used precicely in each manner of which it is used I found a site on this subject a while back https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/21.html and it has so far been amazing in helping me understand and the number 21 and this year has been on my eyes for a while now because it does seem to symbolize great wickeness and rebellion and sin ehich if you look at things in the world right now the wickedness corruption and sin is by far worse than it has been in a good while.

My next thing is the number 22 which seems to represent great disorder and chaos and again the link is herehttps://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/22.html Also remember how Jesus said on the mount of olives how the generation will see all these things come to pass? what is a generation according to scripture? the bible says it is 70 years or by reason of strength 80 years, now pay attention to Israel and how it became a nation again in 1948 now lets add 80 years to that and what is it? 2028 what is 7 minus that? 2021 why does God begin the great tribulation to begin with? the great rebellion and sin of man.
This is only a little of my studies but I just felt God telling me to make this thread how it is recieved is in his hands
Also for those who have been worried I have not been online much I was put into an institute by family for the mentally disabled which I don't belong in but have nowhere to go and the internet here is very finicky plus I have been working a lot as well but God has been with me and speaking to me so I figure he must have me here for a reason

The rapture first.
What we are experiencing is the beginning of tribulation type conditions which are progressively occurring conditioning society to the arrival of the rapture and then the great tribulation. (Example Chicago is experiencing a terrible wave of criminal acts for several years now. It currently receives little or no mention, even though many are shot and/or killed each week end).
This is consistent with scriptures.....look up,watch, do not sleep...speaking to the believing Christian. After all, the secular world knows not what all this means.

peldom10 · Aug 20, 2021

TMS said:

Most of the protestant reformer come to the conclusion that the catholic church was the antichrist so .......Futurism was invented....
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy (500 page) commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming.

Many false teachings have resulted and one that is common today is the pretribulation rapture.
It is sad that many protestant churches have forgotten so many of their fundamental pillars.

Rapture is clearly outlined in Christian scripture. Not in the RC bible...I suggest.

randyk · Aug 20, 2021

TMS said:

That is correct, TMS. Futurism, if you want to call it that, actually existed in the Early Church. I believe that most of the Church Fathers believed in a future Antichrist, whether he would come out of the Roman Empire, or out of some future reorganization of the same.

Preterism was born in the same general time period as Ribera. Alcazar in 1614 initiated the position in which the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation were fulfilled in the Early Church exclusively, to avoid a position, among futurists, who would identify the Antichrist with the papacy. (I hope I have this all correct!)

So it may be a little confusing for some. Futurism saw the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation as having some as-yet future fulfillment, beyond the then-current Roman Empire. As the Roman Empire passed in the West in 476 AD, futurists began to see the Antichrist as fulfilled in Islam, or in the Mongols. The Reformers applied prophecy of the Antichrist to the RCC. Dispensationalists apply prophecy of the Antichrist to a figure beyond just the RCC.

Ruby123 · Aug 20, 2021

randyk · Aug 20, 2021

I think the Afghan thing is largely geo-political, and not some huge conspiracy. It is of no value for the US to control Afghanistan, if the people there cannot manage it for themselves, regardless of the wealth there. Even if we lose a lot of weaponry, at least we're not having to make more to fight an endless war.

Biden's folly is that he withdrew the military before American civilians were out. I think his senility is showing, along with his pride and audacity.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 20, 2021

peldom10 said:

Please explain 2 Thess 1:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation) occurs and the man of lawlessness (beast/antichrist) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

All the red words refer to the same thing: the first day of the Day of the Lord, which is when Jesus comes back to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words occur WITH the Second Advent.

The purple words shows what MUST COME FIRST: the Tribulation and revealing of the beast/antichrist.

Since you believe in a pre-trib rapture, what verse shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

This is key to that theology. Can you support it from Scripture?

FreeGrace2 · Aug 20, 2021

peldom10 said:

Yes, it is. But please quote the verse that shows Jesus taking the raptured believers to heaven.

I'll wait.

Ahwatukee · Aug 20, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Jesus could not have been preparing His disciples to go through the great tribulation and because they are long dead and the great tribulation has yet to take place. Neither is He speaking to believers who will be alive on the earth just before the tribulation begins. It is important to understand that the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, are not to be confused with God's coming wrath/tribulation, when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place. For it is this coming wrath of God that believers are not appointed to suffer and therefore we must be gathered prior to the on-set of said wrath.

Actually, Jesus is telling those who will have missed the gathering of the church and who will be on the earth during the time of God's tribulation/wrath and what to expect. Jesus was telling it to His disciples because this information would later be written down for us and them to read. As a promise from the Lord, those who overcome and keep His patient endurance, He will keep them out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole inhabited world.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

The "Hour of Trial" is another designation for "The Day of the Lord," i.e. the time of God's wrath, which the Lord is promising to keep us out of.

I would offer a correction. It was the sixty ninth week of years, at the end of which Messiah was cut off. The Messiah is nowhere mentioned in the last seven years.

After 7 sevens and 62 sevens (69 sevens), the Messiah would be cut off.

Daniel 9:27 specifically deals with the last seven years, referring to "he" thee times in the scripture, which would have to refer back to the last person mentioned in v.26 which is "the ruler of the people" which is referring to that future antichrist.

Omegatime · Aug 20, 2021

10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Certainly a future tone involved here in the scriptures but the concern I see the Lord was only talking to the church of Philadelphia. What about all the other 6 churches and the thousands throughout the world. I dont think this scripture pertains to a rapture event but a promise to this one church during the tribulation which now is in Turkey.

Pilgrimshope · Aug 20, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

yea he couldn’t have been preparing his disciples who will be one earth until the end of time for tribulation that they went through constantly as he said they would being persecuted until the mass slaughter in Rome by Nero and Titus.

but wait without rejecting it read it

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:4, 6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At this point already you have to acknowledge what he is saying and who he is speaking to right ? Without explaining a bunch of theology from rapture books I’m saying what is Jesus saying there ? He’s telling them guaranteeing tribulation to them and preparing them ahead of time to endure to the end and be saved

“And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ( falling away )

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

are you saying Jesus has it wrong ? because you believe in the pre tribulation theory ? But just deal with what the lord said there can you sort of see how simple he’s speaking there ? And how he is absolutely preparing them to endure great tribulation ahead for them ?

if we can’t agree there this is pointless

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the gospel is being preached until the end there is a church preaching it until the end they will be taken up that day of the rresurrection not before

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would just ask you to deal with what’s there rather than rejecting it and explaining with theories how it doesn’t apply if you do that you will not believe in a pre trib rapture

Jesus was telling them of perpetual tribulation thy at was going to begin soon for them and grow and spread and cause apostasy and sorrows as the church lost faith until the end in the end the ones left alive yet in that generation will be gathered the day the dead rise upon Christs return after the tribulation concludes

Consider what happened tonthe early church that’s why he was preparing them to go through it it happened exactly like he said. And will continue to happen as he said

FreeGrace2 · Aug 20, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

If Revelation isn't for the Church, please explain:

Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Pilgrimshope · Aug 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

amen it’s for these folks to hear

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pilgrimshope · Aug 20, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

this part

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doesn’t support a pre trib rapture God has always done that for his people but not as you are thinking but rather like this

You should consider how he spares them from the troubles of earth

“The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭57:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need to think spiritually and forget about how we think from flesh , when a good and righteous man dies in that case those who kept his word when they are martyred or die young it’s because God is taking them out of the world out of this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when a believer in the lord dies or gets martyred unjustly it’s a blessing because they are delivered into the kingdom alive now resting from the labors and sorrows of earth

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJ

We need to look away from the thkngs we see and think and let it in what the spirit says

we see an unjust death as a bad thing as if the person is to be pitied because we’re seeing the worlds point of view Gods point of view is different so a martyr or someone dying in him being taken from the earth and thier flesh means that they can be here with him now

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they have been taken from the hour of temptation and trial on earth you see them witnessing it here

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭

they were delivered from the woes of this world but they went through it first and there’s tribulation always for many even as others on the other side of the world have peace and forget the others suffering sll
Over the world martyred and taken from the earth to spare them from it

Could the tribulation start this year?

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