Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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I agree with most of this. Spiritually dead doesn't mean...death in the way people take physical death to mean.
My point is if the first death was spiritual death (separation from God because of sin), then the second death will also be spiritual death, the second death.... but this death will be eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. There will be no more hope for the spirit to be born again after physical death or at the judgment. Jesus is the only sacrifice and if a person does not accept him and become born again they will face the 2nd spiritual death throughout eternity.
My point is if the first death was spiritual death (separation from God because of sin), then the second death will also be spiritual death, the second death.... but this death will be eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. There will be no more hope for the spirit to be born again after physical death or at the judgment. Jesus is the only sacrifice and if a person does not accept him and become born again they will face the 2nd spiritual death throughout eternity.
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When the bible mentions the second death, iot5 is speaking of a literal death with nothing left alive. That means first death is the normal death people experience, which also is a literal death except only the body dies.
The spiritual or figurative death Adam experienced is not related to the first and second deaths (the first literal death and the second literal death) ie: it should not be called the first death because that adds confusion because the first death is the death of the body not a spiritual death.
The first death is death of body ie: when someone dies. Spiritual death is a figurative type of death so is not numbered.
First death: human body dies, soul and spirit remain alive.
Second death: Human body, soul and spirit die, nothing remains alive.
The spiritual or figurative death Adam experienced is not related to the first and second deaths (the first literal death and the second literal death) ie: it should not be called the first death because that adds confusion because the first death is the death of the body not a spiritual death.
The first death is death of body ie: when someone dies. Spiritual death is a figurative type of death so is not numbered.
First death: human body dies, soul and spirit remain alive.
Second death: Human body, soul and spirit die, nothing remains alive.
I've always thought of the second death as what happens to those who are completely resurrected. Here are some verses to consider that the second death involves the body, soul, and spirit of a person.
In my view, John 5:28-29 is speaking of the general resurrection of all people. First resurrection for the righteous, second resurrection for the wicked.
John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In my view, Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of a bonus resurrection for those martyred during the mark of the beast period and then the general first resurrection for everyone else.
Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In my view, Revelation 20:12-13 is the second resurrection of the wicked in preparation for judgment to the second death.
Revelation 20:12-13
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
My main point is that there is not a second death without a second resurrection.
In my view, John 5:28-29 is speaking of the general resurrection of all people. First resurrection for the righteous, second resurrection for the wicked.
John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In my view, Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of a bonus resurrection for those martyred during the mark of the beast period and then the general first resurrection for everyone else.
Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In my view, Revelation 20:12-13 is the second resurrection of the wicked in preparation for judgment to the second death.
Revelation 20:12-13
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
My main point is that there is not a second death without a second resurrection.
All salvation is by the grace of God. Not by anything we do. Not by our choice.
Adam was the Son of God. Luke 3.
When he sinned and lied to God about his responsibility for eating of the forbidden fruit, blaming her for his disobedience, and God cursed them for disobeying his first commandment, the holy spirit within Adam departed. Adam had a spirit still, but without the holy spirit within he was considered 'spiritually dead'. Meaning, there was a separation from God who is holy spirit.
However, and many of us forget this, in God all things are created, all that exist are both of and from God. Colossians 1.
Therefore, we are never truly separated from God because our very being exists in God, and is of and from God.
"No one comes to the Father but through me."
When Jesus, Immanuel (God with us), was God his teachings then become very clear when considering that single verse from John 14. God is the way, the truth, and the life.
Realizing we are temples of that holy spirit , 1 Corinthians 6, that holy spirit returns to us when we accept Jesus as saving us from the illusion, the trappings, of this material world where Satan is let to be lord. And this is not of our own choice or doing but it is the work of God's holy spirit.
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Don't believe you are spiritually dead. You have a spirit and a soul. Your spirit is made alive to the things of God when he as holy spirit enters in. Your soul is that which is the "skeleton" you might say, that is also from God but that is the vehicle by which you as a fleshly being, made in the image and likeness of God always, reside in this world.
You are eternal, no matter what because you are of and from the source of all that exists.
When you die you return to God. And your flesh returns to the dust from which it sprang. Ecclesiastes 12:7
The grave, is the death of the soul. That vehicle of the flesh. It isn't the end of all that you are however. Because when all that you are is of and from God, all that you are returns to all that is God. Which is all that is, was, or ever shall be. Remember be ye holy as I am holy. 1 Peter 1
If you never were something, you cannot be implored to remember your place as something.
You are holy because you are more than that illusion this world imparts. Veniality. Materialism. Illusions, all.
What is salvation really? Realizing all that. You cannot consciously be aware in this life of that what is more than this life, if you are not open. (Behold I stand at the door and knock)
No one comes to the father but through me.
Jesus was God. God was Jesus.
Revelation 3:20
The door is a portal of awareness. And God knew before he created anything at all who would be open to his grace because he made it so. That's why there is no doorknob depicted in that traditional image. Parables. Figurative language.
The door is your consciousness. There are two sides. One is aware and active in this material world. On the other side is the immensity of the spiritual realm. God comes to the door because he knew your address before the foundation of the world.
What is salvation? Realizing you are more than "this".
You are holy, born of and from God. Act like it.
Adam was the Son of God. Luke 3.
When he sinned and lied to God about his responsibility for eating of the forbidden fruit, blaming her for his disobedience, and God cursed them for disobeying his first commandment, the holy spirit within Adam departed. Adam had a spirit still, but without the holy spirit within he was considered 'spiritually dead'. Meaning, there was a separation from God who is holy spirit.
However, and many of us forget this, in God all things are created, all that exist are both of and from God. Colossians 1.
Therefore, we are never truly separated from God because our very being exists in God, and is of and from God.
"No one comes to the Father but through me."
When Jesus, Immanuel (God with us), was God his teachings then become very clear when considering that single verse from John 14. God is the way, the truth, and the life.
Realizing we are temples of that holy spirit , 1 Corinthians 6, that holy spirit returns to us when we accept Jesus as saving us from the illusion, the trappings, of this material world where Satan is let to be lord. And this is not of our own choice or doing but it is the work of God's holy spirit.
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Don't believe you are spiritually dead. You have a spirit and a soul. Your spirit is made alive to the things of God when he as holy spirit enters in. Your soul is that which is the "skeleton" you might say, that is also from God but that is the vehicle by which you as a fleshly being, made in the image and likeness of God always, reside in this world.
You are eternal, no matter what because you are of and from the source of all that exists.
When you die you return to God. And your flesh returns to the dust from which it sprang. Ecclesiastes 12:7
The grave, is the death of the soul. That vehicle of the flesh. It isn't the end of all that you are however. Because when all that you are is of and from God, all that you are returns to all that is God. Which is all that is, was, or ever shall be. Remember be ye holy as I am holy. 1 Peter 1
If you never were something, you cannot be implored to remember your place as something.
You are holy because you are more than that illusion this world imparts. Veniality. Materialism. Illusions, all.
What is salvation really? Realizing all that. You cannot consciously be aware in this life of that what is more than this life, if you are not open. (Behold I stand at the door and knock)
No one comes to the father but through me.
Jesus was God. God was Jesus.
Revelation 3:20
The door is a portal of awareness. And God knew before he created anything at all who would be open to his grace because he made it so. That's why there is no doorknob depicted in that traditional image. Parables. Figurative language.
The door is your consciousness. There are two sides. One is aware and active in this material world. On the other side is the immensity of the spiritual realm. God comes to the door because he knew your address before the foundation of the world.
What is salvation? Realizing you are more than "this".
You are holy, born of and from God. Act like it.
Ok, it is not written word for word. But we know and understand the meaning by taking the other scriptures into account.
Gen. 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
A part of Adam died that day....It wasn't his body it lived on for hundreds of years.
Then we have the rest of the scriptures that speak of spiritual death.
Death took place that day in the garden and that death was spiritual death.
Gen. 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
A part of Adam died that day....It wasn't his body it lived on for hundreds of years.
Then we have the rest of the scriptures that speak of spiritual death.
Death took place that day in the garden and that death was spiritual death.
I'm not ignoring your post. I had a whole post typed earlier and lost it somehow.
It's been a long day so I think I'm going to have to take a break from fire and brimstone for the night....
I do agree that the Body, Soul, and Spirit will be resurrected on judgment day.
I think I may have already posted my understanding on this somewhere pages and pages ago.
Like I said though, it has been a long day...so I will try to dig up my previous post or make another reply tomorrow... I'm pretty sure nothing I type tonight would be coherent anyways...lol
It's been a long day so I think I'm going to have to take a break from fire and brimstone for the night....
I do agree that the Body, Soul, and Spirit will be resurrected on judgment day.
I think I may have already posted my understanding on this somewhere pages and pages ago.
Like I said though, it has been a long day...so I will try to dig up my previous post or make another reply tomorrow... I'm pretty sure nothing I type tonight would be coherent anyways...lol
Yes, but you also need to bring in the words "tormented day and night" which support aion. Below is the same word:
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
So, since the same word is used to describe God living forever and ever, does that mean that God only lives for an age or cycle of time, or does it mean that God's existence is never ending? If you chose the latter, you are correct.
In Revelation 20:10, the literal says:
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages."
The beast and the false prophet will have been cast into the lake of fire a thousand years prior to Satan and by the use of the words "also are" it demonstrates that they are still existing in the lake of fire. The words "tormented day and night" cement in the fact that their torment will be never ending.
There is no scripture that says either directly or even hints at the punishment in the lake of fire as being temporary.
Here is another example of this:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.25:46
The same word "aionios" is used to describe the condition of both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, however you interpret the word 'eternal' for one, it must retain the same meaning for the other, i.e. If eternal punishment means temporary, then eternal life would also have to be temporary for the righteous and we know that isn't the case.
It is the context that should bear out the meaning.
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
So, since the same word is used to describe God living forever and ever, does that mean that God only lives for an age or cycle of time, or does it mean that God's existence is never ending? If you chose the latter, you are correct.
In Revelation 20:10, the literal says:
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages."
The beast and the false prophet will have been cast into the lake of fire a thousand years prior to Satan and by the use of the words "also are" it demonstrates that they are still existing in the lake of fire. The words "tormented day and night" cement in the fact that their torment will be never ending.
There is no scripture that says either directly or even hints at the punishment in the lake of fire as being temporary.
Here is another example of this:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.25:46
The same word "aionios" is used to describe the condition of both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, however you interpret the word 'eternal' for one, it must retain the same meaning for the other, i.e. If eternal punishment means temporary, then eternal life would also have to be temporary for the righteous and we know that isn't the case.
It is the context that should bear out the meaning.
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laymen: Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence. Isaiah 66:24 They shall go forth, look upon the bodys that have transgressed against me:4 there worm will never die & their fire never quenched:They shall be abhorring 2 all flesh.
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That's a lie.
Concordance does not overrule the Bible.
Another lie!
You just don't like the several NT teachings of the EVERLASTING FIRE that Jesus clearly taught.
You basic doctrine is that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.
Another lie!
Another lie!
Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Concordance does not overrule the Bible.
Another lie!
You just don't like the several NT teachings of the EVERLASTING FIRE that Jesus clearly taught.
You basic doctrine is that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.
Another lie!
Another lie!
Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Ahwatukee said:
Yes, but you also need to bring in the words "tormented day and night" which support aion. Below is the same word:
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
So, since the same word is used to describe God living forever and ever, does that mean that God only lives for an age or cycle of time, or does it mean that God's existence is never ending? If you chose the latter, you are correct.
In Revelation 20:10, the literal says:
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages."
The beast and the false prophet will have been cast into the lake of fire a thousand years prior to Satan and by the use of the words "also are" it demonstrates that they are still existing in the lake of fire. The words "tormented day and night" cement in the fact that their torment will be never ending.
There is no scripture that says either directly or even hints at the punishment in the lake of fire as being temporary.
Here is another example of this:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.25:46
The same word "aionios" is used to describe the condition of both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, however you interpret the word 'eternal' for one, it must retain the same meaning for the other, i.e. If eternal punishment means temporary, then eternal life would also have to be temporary for the righteous and we know that isn't the case.
It is the context that should bear out the meaning.
The scripture above is in reference to the people of Israel and the time when they are resurrected, whether faithful or unfaithful. However, the meaning is the same in that, some will rise to eternal life and other to condemnation in the lake of fire.
Yes, but you also need to bring in the words "tormented day and night" which support aion. Below is the same word:
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
So, since the same word is used to describe God living forever and ever, does that mean that God only lives for an age or cycle of time, or does it mean that God's existence is never ending? If you chose the latter, you are correct.
In Revelation 20:10, the literal says:
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages."
The beast and the false prophet will have been cast into the lake of fire a thousand years prior to Satan and by the use of the words "also are" it demonstrates that they are still existing in the lake of fire. The words "tormented day and night" cement in the fact that their torment will be never ending.
There is no scripture that says either directly or even hints at the punishment in the lake of fire as being temporary.
Here is another example of this:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.25:46
The same word "aionios" is used to describe the condition of both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, however you interpret the word 'eternal' for one, it must retain the same meaning for the other, i.e. If eternal punishment means temporary, then eternal life would also have to be temporary for the righteous and we know that isn't the case.
It is the context that should bear out the meaning.
The scripture above is in reference to the people of Israel and the time when they are resurrected, whether faithful or unfaithful. However, the meaning is the same in that, some will rise to eternal life and other to condemnation in the lake of fire.
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