Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

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Mar 4, 2020
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I've never stated my position, actually. I'm not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. I frankly don't care.
In post #94 you said:

"Tell me, how can my believing in a pre-tribulation rapture lead me into apostasy?" - HisKid

All positions can be supported with Scripture depended on how your interpret it.
That's false.

You aren't going to change anyone's mind and if you're being honest, you aren't actually concerned with saving anyone. You're doing this for your own self-satisfaction.
I'm just obeying my calling to preach God's truth. I could do a million other things instead. Furthermore, this is a Bible Discussion Forum. You know, where people discuss the Bible. That's what we're doing.
 
Jul 28, 2021
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In post #94 you said:

"Tell me, how can my believing in a pre-tribulation rapture lead me into apostasy?" - HisKid



That's false.



I'm just obeying my calling to preach God's truth. I could do a million other things instead. Furthermore, this is a Bible Discussion Forum. You know, where people discuss the Bible. That's what we're doing.
The Holy Spirit abides in me and leads me into all truth. I don't question Him. I always question men who have a very unclear motive.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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The Holy Spirit abides in me and leads me into all truth. I don't question Him. I always question men who have a very unclear motive.
Why did you say you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and then change positions and say "I'm not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib?"
 
Jul 28, 2021
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Why did you say you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and then change positions and say "I'm not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib?"
I didn't say I believed that. I was proposing an example to hear your response. I don't take any position on this because I frankly do not care. I think it is a useless waste of debating.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I didn't say I believed that. I was proposing an example to hear your response. I don't take any position on this because I frankly do not care. I think it is a useless waste of debating.
Okay I'll accept that, but it didn't read like a hypothetical question to me.

Why are you here talking about it if you believe it's a useless waste of debating?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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There is a group called "the Tribulation saints". They are distinct from the Church.

No, all saints are still part of the one Church. There is zero distinctions. The Church is promised to face wrath and tribulation from the enemies of God.
 
Jul 28, 2021
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Okay I'll accept that, but it didn't read like a hypothetical question to me.

Why are you here talking about it if you believe it's a useless waste of debating?
Because I hate to see a useless waste of debating for the sake of debating when you know full well that it doesn't matter what born-again believer believes about the timing of being taken home. Your "concern" does not read as concern. It reads as you trying to be right to gain some points with someone.. not sure whom.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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No, all saints are still part of the one Church. There is zero distinctions. The Church is promised to face wrath and tribulation from the enemies of God.
Nehemiah is correct.

The church is mentioned 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, then it is never used again. The word changes to hagios translated as Saints. There is a definite distinction being made here, which you are just not picking up on. Revelation 4:1 is where the church is removed and is the reason that the word church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath. The reference to 'Saints' is referring to those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. They are not a part of the church. Had they been, they would have been gathered with the church.

No where is the church promised to face God's wrath. On the contrary, scripture states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And before you repeat the popular false apologetic, we are neither appointed to suffer God's coming wrath upon this earth, nor the wrath of being cast into the lake of fire. We are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath.

I know the reason that you have me on ignore is because the truth is too hard to contend with.

It's too bad that your goal isn't to learn the truth, but to protect the false teachings that you have adopted.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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But they are subject to tribulation, Lot got plenty of that, his godly soul was vexed. Tribulation is persecution.
All Christians are subject to tribulation (and hardly any to the extent to which Job suffered). But not "the Tribulation", which is God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. The wicked who love not the truth will therefore be placed under strong delusion so that they believe "the lie".
 
Aug 20, 2021
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Some of us might want to be around to try 2 help if possible
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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All Christians are subject to tribulation (and hardly any to the extent to which Job suffered). But not "the Tribulation", which is God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly.

tribulation is not God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. Tribulation is always from the enemy of God upon God's people. After tribulation is when God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly, known as wrath of God.

Not God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly:
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Abomination of Desolation
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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tribulation is not God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. Tribulation is always from the enemy of God upon God's people. After tribulation is when God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly, known as wrath of God.
Then it is apparent that you don't understand that it is God who will be responsible for the destruction and fatalities resulting from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. God's enemies are not responsible for those. They will be unleashed by the power of God and not mankind. And these will run through the entire seven years.

After the church has been gathered, then God's time of wrath will begin. Everything that happens during that time falls under God's wrath, the Day of the Lord and will continue right up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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tribulation is not God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. Tribulation is always from the enemy of God upon God's people. After tribulation is when God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly, known as wrath of God.

Not God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly:
Here is where you go off the cliff. Jesus stated there would be TROUBLES like never seen before. The Wrath of God falls at the 1260 or in the middle of the week. Satan knows this, HE WAITS, then when God's Wrath falls he sends the Anti-Christ forth to conquer after God destroys 1/3 of this world (IMHO, in the Pacific Ocean). So, God's Wrath is falling and the Anti-Christ is ruling all at the same time, so there will be both TROUBLES in the nature via the sun not giving her full light, people fellow men across the seas dying is TROUBLES, even if you live in Europe and the Mediterranean Sea, AND there will be the Anti-Christ killing and ruling like a tyrant in Europe. So, TROUBLES can mean all kinds of things. The truth is God's Wrath falls at the 1260 AND the Beast goes forth at the 1260.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Rev. 19 it explains its VERY CLEARLY) and thus the Gentile Church is the BARLEY HARVEST, the Jews are THE WHEAT HARVEST that always comes in after the Barley, and the Wicked are the Grape Harvest whom God places in the Wine-press of His wrath.
I am lost how you come to conclusion about barley and grape harvest
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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The truth is God's Wrath falls at the 1260 AND the Beast goes forth at the 1260.
Incorrect. The beast starts at day 1, and has 42 months to rule and cause tribulation against church while God's wrath comes at the 7th trump which is the day the 42 months is completed.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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I am lost how you come to conclusion about barley and grape harvest
The Jewish people celebrate three Festivals of harvests every year, Th Barley Harvest, the Wheat Harvest, and the Grape Harvest. These are SHADOWS of the coming Harvests by God. All have First-fruits of course. Remember how Jesus told the Disciples about the parable of the What and the Tares? Israel is a part of the Wheat harvest, the Wheat grows TOGETHER with the tares until the very end. The Gentile Church and Messianic believers are the Barley Harvest which is harvested before the Wheat.

THREE MAIN HARVESTS OF THE SOUL

I will give you rains at the right season; the land will produce crops, and the trees of the field will produce their fruit. Your threshing will continue until the grape harvest, and your grape harvest will continue until it is time to plant. Then you will have plenty to eat and live safely in your land. ~ Leviticus 26:4-5, NCV

God can use a metaphor better than the most gifted writers. For example, He takes the Old Testament’s annual two grains and one fruit agricultural harvests and develops them into well-defined metaphors that describe the New Testament’s spiritual harvests of souls—those saved believers who enter into the Kingdom of God (see the rich harvest imagery in Matthew 9:36-38; John 4:35-36).

Now, in order to understand His metaphors, the three spiritual harvests of souls, believers first need to understand the significance of God’s three mandated major festivals that He situates within aforesaid agricultural harvests. The three agricultural-related mandated feasts that all Jewish men who, more than likely, are 20 years of age and older, had to attend are the Passover Feast, the Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles (cf. Exodus 23:14-17; Deuteronomy 16:16). Moreover, the two different grain harvests and the one fruit harvest that are compared to three spiritual harvests of souls are the Barley Harvest, Wheat Harvest, and Grapes Harvest—these harvest metaphors depict God’s harvest times as a time of opportunity in the here and now, and a time of final judgment.

It is important to note here that every crop of grain and fruit will have first fruits (the grain and fruit of every crop that ripens early), and every crop of grain and fruit will experience a time of separation. When the crop is ripe, it is harvested by separating the chaff or the refuse. Thus, mature barley goes through a time of separation or winnowing. Using a wooden fork or “fan,” winnowers throw the gathered barley against the wind so that the wind can separate the chaff (husk) from the grain. On the other hand, mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing/threshing. Using a tribulum, a wooden board with holes in it, or using a wooden sled, both of which oxen often pull, threshers stand or sit on the board or sled as it is drawn over the grain that is laying on the threshing floor, causing the grain to be separated from the husk (chaff) and straw.

Because barley and wheat still will have certain amounts of chaff, little stones, and/or some tares mixed in them, these grains must go through an additional time of separation or sifting (sieving). The sifters sit on the floor and shake the sieve, which contains the grain, until the chaff begins to appear on the top. Then the sifters blow away the chaff by using the power from their breath. Shifting, thus, is necessary before the grain can be ground into meal.

Lastly, the mature grapes also go through a time of separation or crushing (treading). Using a winepress, treaders crush the grapes until the grapes’ juice is separated from the grapes’ skins, which results in the pressed juice running into the vats.

Having said that, here, in a nutshell, are the three main spiritual Harvests of Souls:

FIRST HARVEST — BARLEY HARVEST (@first FRUITS FEAST)

See ~ Ephesians 5:27; ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23, NCV; ~ 2 Peter 3:14, NCV

The Barley Harvest represents the overcomers. These are the saints whose hearts are tender—the repentant on-fire believers, whose body, soul, and spirit are without spot or blemish; completely sanctified unleavened lives driven by the Wind of the Holy Spirit. Like Christ Jesus, they too are Firstfruits; they are the Bride of Christ; they are the redeemed, resurrected, never-to-die again, glorified sons and daughters of God, and they are the FIRST PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection. Furthermore, some of them will be the resurrected dead in Christ AND some will be the raptured alive in Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51- 54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

More important, these overcomers have been winnowed, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a “TRIBULUM” (Latin word from which comes the English word, Tribulation). In other words, the Barley Harvest of Souls will NOT have to go through the seven-year TRIBULATION, of which the last 3½ years are going to be the time of great distress and great pressure that this world has never seen before, and will never see again.

SECOND HARVEST — WHEAT HARVEST (@FEAST OF PENTECOST)

See ~ Matthew 3:11-12; ~ Matthew 13:38-39; ~ Revelation 14:14-16, NCV

The Wheat Harvest represents all the rest of the believers—the left behind hardhearted and/or carnal believers who were not ready when the Bride of Christ was raptured. These believers must endure the seven-year Tribulation, and for them, the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years) is a judgment that can be compared to the most severe action of Wheat threshing that is done in order to make the Wheat easier to separate (easier to winnow) away from the chaff. The Wheat Harvest, thus, represents those believers who are asleep, in the spiritual sense (see Matthew 13:25). Furthermore, the Firstfruits of this Wheat Harvest will be the martyred (beheaded) saints who are the SECOND PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, and the remaining mature Wheat will be those surviving Tribulation saints—the left-behind believers who have been thoroughly purged; see Revelation 7:13-14).

Also mixed in with this left-behind Harvest of Wheat are many left behind evangelized unbelievers (Jews and Gentiles) who, during the seven-year Tribulation, finally will accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Savior! Together with the surviving Tribulation’s left-behind believers, these Tribulation converts will be those Tribulation survivors biblically described as “…a great multitude, which no man could number…” (Revelation 7:9).

THIRD HARVEST — GRAPES HARVEST (@FEAST OF TABERNACLES)

See ~ Revelation 14:17-20; ~ Revelation 19:15

The Grapes Harvest represents the unbelievers who, for the most part, will be part of the massive crop of unbelievers who are in the 2nd resurrection—those centuries of unbelievers who will be judged according to their works (see Revelation 20:11-13). Moreover, many of these Grapes are Tribulation unbelievers who have heard the Gospel but made a choice to not make the Gospel a part of their lives—they chose not to accept Jesus the Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. These Grapes, thus, are the Tribulation’s unspiritual Harvest of Souls who have been thrown in the great winepress of God’s wrath, which thoroughly extracts juice (life) from “crushed” Grapes (see Revelation 14:19). Put differently, the Grapes and their seeds are UTTERLY and TOTALLY CRUSHED!

In contrast, the Firstfruits of the Grapes Harvest are the 144,000 last days’ redeemed unmarried translated/raptured Messianic Jews (see Revelation 14:3-4). These blameless, undefiled, and faithful followers of Jesus the Christ are the THIRD PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, because just like the alive Bride of Christ these 144,000 saints will be raptured (redeemed or resurrected; raised up) alive!

Are you breathing? Then a word to the wise should be sufficient!!!


https://gone-fishin.org//?s=Three+Harvests&search=Go
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Incorrect. The beast starts at day 1, and has 42 months to rule and cause tribulation against church while God's wrath comes at the 7th trump which is the day the 42 months is completed.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
There is no use with you, I have debated on 5 or 6 sites and you have yet t ever change one wrong opinion. You will see you were in error when you get t heaven.
 
Aug 20, 2021
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yes it's worse in the last days but 42 is all generations look at Matthews generations.Also don't let the number feed your pride.Does any 1 remember Elisha the 42 kids and the 2 that bear whiteness?2 witnesses that devour sin
 
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Elisha and the 42 Children
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!’ And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. From there he went on to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria. “​