The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[reneweddaybyday]

No sense going to Rom 5:11 if you fail to understand Rom 5:10!

I read Romans 5:10 within the context in which it sits ...

Romans 5:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The ungodly are the descendants of Adam ... all descendants of Adam, including you. As much as you want to believe you are somehow excluded from the sea of humanity (the ungodly) because of your erroneous belief concerning what God means concerning "elect"/"election", you are just as much a part of the ungodly as any other descendant of Adam.


7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


For some reason, you believe Scripture is all about "you" when in reality Scripture is all about God.


Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Look up the word "commendeth" (Greek synistēmi) ...

HELPS Word-studies:​

​

4921 synistáō (from 4862 /sýn, "union, together with" and 2476/hístēmi, "to stand") – properly, "stand together," referring to facts "lining up" with each other to support (commend) something.​

​

​

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:​

​

3. to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing, hence, to show, prove, establish, exhibit (Winer's Grammar, 23 (22)): τί, Romans 3:5; Romans 5:8​

​

​

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:​

​

lit., "to set together" (sun, "with," histemi, "to stand"), hence signifies "to set one person or thing with another by way of presenting and commending." ... The word often denotes "to commend," so as to meet with approval, Rom 3:5; 5:8​

It is the love of God which is exhibited in these verses ...

The facts which support God's love toward mankind (the ungodly of vs 6) are:

vs 8 - Christ died for us while we were sinners (not when we were righteous or good - vs 7).
vs 9 - we are now justified and we shall be saved from wrath through Him (Christ).
vs 10 - we have been reconciled to God and shall be saved by His life.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!! Words within verse, verse within context, context within writing in which it sits, writing within the whole of Scripture. Step away from whatever "source" you are using ... as shown by the numberings to footnotes you provide in your ramblings. Interesting you don't provide the footnotes to which you refer ... nor do you provide information concerning the source from which the footnotes come ... just sayin'

 

[brightfame52]

I read Romans 5:10 within the context in which it sits ...

Romans 5:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The ungodly are the descendants of Adam ... all descendants of Adam, including you. As much as you want to believe you are somehow excluded from the sea of humanity (the ungodly) because of your erroneous belief concerning what God means concerning "elect"/"election", you are just as much a part of the ungodly as any other descendant of Adam.


7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


For some reason, you believe Scripture is all about "you" when in reality Scripture is all about God.


Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Look up the word "commendeth" (Greek synistēmi) ...

HELPS Word-studies:​

​

4921 synistáō (from 4862 /sýn, "union, together with" and 2476/hístēmi, "to stand") – properly, "stand together," referring to facts "lining up" with each other to support (commend) something.​

​

​

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:​

​

3. to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing, hence, to show, prove, establish, exhibit (Winer's Grammar, 23 (22)): τί, Romans 3:5; Romans 5:8​

​

​

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:​

​

lit., "to set together" (sun, "with," histemi, "to stand"), hence signifies "to set one person or thing with another by way of presenting and commending." ... The word often denotes "to commend," so as to meet with approval, Rom 3:5; 5:8​

It is the love of God which is exhibited in these verses ...

The facts which support God's love toward mankind (the ungodly of vs 6) are:

vs 8 - Christ died for us while we were sinners (not when we were righteous or good - vs 7).
vs 9 - we are now justified and we shall be saved from wrath through Him (Christ).
vs 10 - we have been reconciled to God and shall be saved by His life.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!! Words within verse, verse within context, context within writing in which it sits, writing within the whole of Scripture. Step away from whatever "source" you are using ... as shown by the numberings to footnotes you provide in your ramblings. Interesting you don't provide the footnotes to which you refer ... nor do you provide information concerning the source from which the footnotes come ... just sayin'

Rom 5:10 is found within the context, its a truth in the context. Now Whats the promise made to the reconciled ?

 

[brightfame52]

It Guarantee's Repentance and Remission of sins !

Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The Death of the True Lord Jesus Christ guarantees, for all whom He died and rose again, both Repentance and Remission of their sins. His Resurrection not only gave evidence of their Justification before God Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

But it also ensures their repentance and remission or forgiveness of sin Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He is not your Saviour if He has not given you Repentance ! He is the Resurrected, Exalted, Prince and Saviour, To give [ apply or communicate] Repentance and forgiveness of sins to all for whom He died, which is restricted to a elect people that is called Israel. Every sinner that Truly Repents only gives evidence of Christ's Exaltation and He being their Saviour. Their repentance gives occasion for Joy in Heaven Lk 15:7,10

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

10Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

This is Christ's Joy in seeing the successful accomplishment and results of His suffering and Death for all He substituted for Heb 12:2

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

In other words, every time a sinner repents, its a credit to Christ's Cross Work on their Behalf , and He gets Joy from it , full satisfaction, Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The English word Joy means:

the emotion of great delight or happiness caused by something exceptionally good or satisfying

His Joy is that satisfaction He See's in what all His Hard Work accomplished for them He suffered and died for, it brought them back to God , which was the Design of His Death anyway:

1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He was Successful !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Your "commentary" relating to Daniel 9:24 is in error ... same as the rest of your writings in the pages of this thread. Because you rip verses from context, you claim one thing when God's Word tells us what God wants us to know ...

In vss 2 - 29, Daniel prayed to God:

Daniel 9:

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


God heard the prayer of Daniel and sent Gabriel to speak to Daniel:

Daniel 9:

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.



What Gabriel told Daniel:

Daniel 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Daniel 9:24 is a prophetic utterance which has yet to be completely fulfilled and the believer looks forward in great anticipation to the fulfillment of this promise.

However, before complete fulfillment of Dan 9:24 ...

vs 25 - Messiah came, just as promised.

vs 26 - Messiah was cut off, but not for Himself. The people of the prince that shall come did, in fact, come ... the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.

vs 27 - there is a future prince that shall come who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


We have yet to see vs 27 come to pass ... after which Daniel 9:24 shall be completely fulfilled.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!! the words within the verse ... the verse within the context ... the context within the writing in which it sits ... the writting within the whole of Scripture.

Take the words of Gabriel as shown in Dan 9:25 to heart and pray to God that you may know therefore and understand because right now, you know and understand nothing concerning Daniel 9 due to your dogmatic eisegesis.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Death of the True Lord Jesus Christ guarantees, for all whom He died and rose again, both Repentance and Remission of their sins. His Resurrection not only gave evidence of their Justification before God Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Again ripping verses out of context you err in discernment concerning God's Truth.

Romans 4:

16 Therefore it [the promise mentioned in vs 13] is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee [Abraham] a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who [Abraham] against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


See that, brightfame52 ... if we believe ...

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Those who reject do so of their own accord ...


1 John 2:2 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[rayzor]

Eisegesis. :There r better words 2 use then [x ah Jesus] it's just a funny sounding word 2 me.

 

[rayzor]

reneweddaybyday: r u saying the just shall live by faith?

 

[TMS]

Sin = death
All have sinned = All should die

This is just and right. Satan can claim the body of any sinner. God can not give life to any sinner and be just at the same time.

BUT the plan of salvation is just and merciful at the same time. The debt is paid in full and we can be raised from the dead because Jesus has paid the price of our sin.

 

[rayzor]

we r virgins via the new nature.that is when we r born again.

 

[brightfame52]

Your "commentary" relating to Daniel 9:24 is in error ... same as the rest of your writings in the pages of this thread. Because you rip verses from context, you claim one thing when God's Word tells us what God wants us to know ...

In vss 2 - 29, Daniel prayed to God:

Daniel 9:

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


God heard the prayer of Daniel and sent Gabriel to speak to Daniel:

Daniel 9:

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.



What Gabriel told Daniel:

Daniel 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Daniel 9:24 is a prophetic utterance which has yet to be completely fulfilled and the believer looks forward in great anticipation to the fulfillment of this promise.

However, before complete fulfillment of Dan 9:24 ...

vs 25 - Messiah came, just as promised.

vs 26 - Messiah was cut off, but not for Himself. The people of the prince that shall come did, in fact, come ... the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.

vs 27 - there is a future prince that shall come who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


We have yet to see vs 27 come to pass ... after which Daniel 9:24 shall be completely fulfilled.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!! the words within the verse ... the verse within the context ... the context within the writing in which it sits ... the writting within the whole of Scripture.

Take the words of Gabriel as shown in Dan 9:25 to heart and pray to God that you may know therefore and understand because right now, you know and understand nothing concerning Daniel 9 due to your dogmatic eisegesis.

Is Dan 9:24 speaking of Christ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Eisegesis. :There r better words 2 use then [x ah Jesus] it's just a funny sounding word 2 me.

exegesis = an explanation or critical interpretation of a text

eisegesis = the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas

for more info on exegesis and eisegesis, see Post #434

reneweddaybyday: r u saying the just shall live by faith?

yep

 

[brightfame52]

Again ripping verses out of context you err in discernment concerning God's Truth.

Romans 4:

16 Therefore it [the promise mentioned in vs 13] is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee [Abraham] a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who [Abraham] against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


See that, brightfame52 ... if we believe ...

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Those who reject do so of their own accord ...


1 John 2:2 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does Rom 4:25 say about the resurrection of Christ ? Why was He resurrected according to it?

 

[brightfame52]

Christ promised success out of His Death !

The Antichrist is a failure, However the True Christ made a Promise per Jn 12:24-33

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In verse 24 Christ was identifying Himself as that corn of wheat, that was about to die. We now this because of vs 33

Now He says, if that corn of wheat shall die, again speaking of His Death that He is to die, He says it brings forth much fruit !

What is Fruit in this context ? Is it apples and oranges ? No its not, the word fruit here is the greek word karpos and means:

fruit

a) the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields

b) the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

Jesus meaning is His Progeny, or Offspring [Spiritually of course], His Posterity, shall be brought forth if He dies.

The word bring forth [pherō] means to produce, Jesus is saying that out of His death He shall produce Life, a posterity.

The word fruit also means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

Christ's Death will produce an effect, results, it will bring forth an Offspring, Life, and this Offspring will serve Him. Remember the psalmist speaks of a Offspring that shall serve Him Ps 22:30

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Jesus talks about those that serve Him in Jn 12:26

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.117

Jesus is alluding to the Effects of His Death as the corn of wheat, it will produce a Offspring, a progeny that SHALL SERVE HIM Per Ps 22:30

And it is this Offspring that Jesus means in Jn 12:32. The all here that shall be drawn to Him because of His Being Lifted up or as vs 24 states it, fall into the ground and die, they all shall come to Him to Serve Him..Their coming is denoting their conversion to Him, this is the Success that He promised out of His Death.

His Death actually gives Life[Spiritual] to the World Jn 6:33

33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

This of course is the World of His Seed !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

John 12:

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

 

[brightfame52]

It accomplished propitiation !

One of the sure ways to detect teachers of error, is to ask them what they believe the Death of Christ accomplished . They will for the most part say that His Death provided a possibility for everyone in the world to be saved, they do not say it made Salvation sure or that it[His Death] in and of itself saved anyone. They will go to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove their point ! By it they say Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world, and propitiated God for everyone in the world without exception. Once a Person goes there, I know without question that they do not understand what propitiation is to God !

In 1 Jn 2:2 its the word Hilasmos and means:

an appeasing, propitiating
the means of appeasing, a propitiation

The english word appease means:

to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe: to appease an angry king.

Basically propitiation means to appease God's Wrath, to make satisfaction, to be propitious or merciful which denotes acceptance and favor.

It [propitiation] is the first cousin to reconciliation !

The Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross appeased or satisfied God's Justice that His Law demanded for everyone He died in the stead of. God's Holy law against their transgressions demanded Death, and Christ was the representative and was subrogated in their place. The Lord Jesus Christ met the Just demands of the law that was against them, and it was He instead of them that God's Justice and Righteousness put to Death. God's Justice was satisfied and His Law was Honored and Magnified, and everyone this was done for, God gives them Faith so they can know it and praise His Grace and mercy for it.

John writes that He is our Propitiation 1 Jn 2:2

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In the greek it is present tense, that is He is presently being our satisfaction for our sins, and not at that time just to the jewish believers John wrote to, but to believers all over the world, and for all time !

Folks, simply put, God cannot, without being unjust, punish anyone Christ died for, not for anything ! His Justice cannot do it.

So for those who use this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world without exception, that Propitiated God on their behalf, and know at the same time people shall die in their sins Jn 8:24119

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

We know all will not believe because Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Now according to Jn 8:24 they shall die in their sins !

So if they die in their sins, and yet Christ is their propitiation, then God is punishing them again for their sins Christ died for 1 Cor 15:3, which makes God unjust and Christ has been betrayed, because He suffered death already for the sins that they are again to be punished for eternally !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Folks, simply put, God cannot, without being unjust, punish anyone Christ died for, not for anything ! His Justice cannot do it.

Does 1 John 2:2 state that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sinner? ... or does 1 John 2:2 state that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the sinner?

1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

​

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The only way for God’s wrath against sinful man to be appeased and for us to be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way. This truth is also communicated in 1 John 2:2, “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” An important part of Christ’s saving work is deliverance from God’s wrath; Jesus’ propitiation on the cross is the only thing that can turn away God’s divine condemnation of sin. Those who reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation. They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment (Romans 2:5). There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.​

​

https://www.gotquestions.org/propitiation.html​

Go all the way back to Abel and Cain and the offerings they brought. This is the first record where man brought offering to God:

Genesis 4:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


vs 4 - God accepted Abel's offering and we know from Hebrews 11:4 that Abel brought his offering by faith. faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God (Rom 10:17) ... so we know both Abel and Cain heard the Word of God, even though we have no record of what Word of God they heard.

vs 5 - God did not accept Cain's offering and Cain was furious and burned with anger.

vs 6 - 7 - God's mercy and grace extended to Cain in telling Cain that he would be accepted if Cain did well (i.e. brought the proper offering in faith). Furthermore, God warned Cain concerning sin ... sin can rule over you or you can rule over sin.

We all know that Cain rejected God's counsel and sin ruled over Cain.

The example in Genesis 4 has been played out generation after generation from time of Adam and Eve until now and will continue in the future.

God reaches out to mankind ... mankind rejects God's mercy, grace, lovingkindness ... and suffers the consequences of their rejection.


That there are some who refuse to come God to have their sins propitiated through the propitiation God has ordained is the only manner in which to appease His wrath does not equal God's ordained propitiation not being sufficient to appease God for the sins of all.

Those who bring their own offering turn from what will appease God and rely on something else to appease God. And God is not appeased by their "something else".

 

[awelight]

If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.

You don't seem to understand the difference between the Eternal perspective and the Temporal perspective. This is what he was eluding too. The Eternal perspective of God.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Everything had already been worked out in Eternity and then goes through the Temporal steps by each Elect believer. Just as Christ will come, as the Lamb and die and be resurrected.

 

[awelight]

What are the objectives and effects of the death of Christ ?

Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church.

Eph 5:25-26

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Jesus pointed that out in His Prayer Jn 17:19

19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. 6

You might want to clarify this statement: "..it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."

What about all of those in the Old Testament? What about the ones in the coming Tribulation? Does not Christ's blood cover them also?

 

[brightfame52]

You might want to clarify this statement: "..it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."

What about all of those in the Old Testament? What about the ones in the coming Tribulation? Does not Christ's blood cover them also?

Christs death covers all whoever shall be saved !

 

[brightfame52]

All for whom Christ died, He gave Himself a ransom 1 Tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

This ransom price being paid [To God] demands the release of the captives for which it was made in behalf of, in fact, it effects the release of all the captives it paid a ransom price for. Now if that does not occur, and anyone of those for whom Christ died as a ransom in behalf of, and any of them remain captive to the devil as per 2 Tim 2:26

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

If this be the case, then Christ's Ransom Blood was not effective, and failed to produce the purposed results. Isa 61:1121

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Also see Lk 4:18

Christ's Ransom Payment must deliver from captivity and death, or it was fruitless, without results or success !