Sabbath

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Aug 8, 2021
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That’s funny. god told Adam the moment he sinned he would die. (The penalty)
the law was given to prove to everyone we have sinned and fallen short. It was nit given to show us how to live. The ten commands written on stone are called the ministers of death. Because anyone who broke even 1 received the death sentence (spiritual death)
when people try to make them as a means on how to live. They destroy the purpose of the law. And will never find out how to live. Because that’s not why they were given
the Jews messed that up and people like you are following in their footsteps

1 John 3:4

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You have to break a law in order to sin. God gave Adam the instruction BEFORE he sinned (broke that instruction).

This is the order:

1. Law
2. Sin
3. Penalty

Sure you can say that after mankind sinned, more laws were added... but in order to sin in the first place a law had to be broken. The definition of sinning is breaking laws.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I have said it so many times but people still accuse me of righteousness by works.
Obeying the law can not save anyone, our effort to be good enough will never make us right with God.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Keeping the law will not justify our past sins.

Jesus gave His life and that is the only way by which we can stand justified and righteous. By Jesus we can be saved.

Do we then make void the law through grace? Because Jesus is able to cover my sin, do i continue to sin?

The choice to obey the law because He is a loving God is not me trying to be righteous by my works but my love and faith manifested in actions.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Thank you for taking the time to reply and the beautiful scriptures you listed.
What you listed reminds me of this scripture:
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments,
because this applies to every person.

Ecclesiastes 12:13

Would you say this is in agreement of your thoughts and post here???
Let me know - thank you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
1 John 3:4

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You have to break a law in order to sin. God gave Adam the instruction BEFORE he sinned (broke that instruction).

This is the order:

1. Law
2. Sin
3. Penalty

Sure you can say that after mankind sinned, more laws were added... but in order to sin in the first place a law had to be broken. The definition of sinning is breaking laws.
You just gave the purpose of the law
now receive Christ and stop trying to follow a law you can’t follow
 
Aug 8, 2021
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You just gave the purpose of the law
now receive Christ and stop trying to follow a law you can’t follow
Its pretty obvious now that whenever you are proven wrong and have no logical argument to the topic and hand, rather than conceding a point you ignore it and try to shift the topic to something about the person.

Was Adam not given the instruction not to eat of the tree before he broke that instruction (sinned)?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Its painfully obvious to us.

Not sure why the legalists have such a hard time. But Historically, they have always had a difficult time with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Religion and religious duty is carnal and is a much easier path then faith and trust in an unseen God that requires faith and trust to please Him.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Thanks for posting the verses.


I wish it was as simple as you make it sound, but we have to remember:

Revelation 12:9

9 The huge dragon was hurled down. That ancient serpent, called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, was hurled down to the earth, along with its angels.

I believe there is a lot of confusion around John 19 and Matthew 5 because of church tradition and language/translation.

There are four words that are found in these sections that are similar, but do not always convey the same message when used interchangeably.... Fulfill, Come to be/Came to be, Finish and Accomplish.

The word fulfill is the most distinct of the four, and means "to carry into effect" or "to make whole". This commonly refers to something that was said will happen (hence prophesy), and to make that prophesy happen is to "fulfill" it.

That is the Greek word found at the end of Matthew 5:17:


Matthew 5:17

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,


This is also the same word found in Luke 24:44:

Luke 24:44

44 Then he told them, “These are the words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms had to be fulfilled.


The same Greek word can not be found in John 19:28-30, but rather you see the words that are generally translated as finish and accomplish. So I believe those words in that passage should be translated something like this...


John 19:28-30

28 After this, when Jesus realized that everything was now finished, he said (in order to accomplish the Scripture), “I’m thirsty.” 29 A jar of sour wine was standing there, so they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 After Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.


Now the fact that the same word for "fulfill" is not specifically mentioned in this passage of John does not necessarily mean that this is not where the Messiah "fulfills" the law..... However, as we just saw in Luke 24:44, everything written about him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms had to be fulfilled. So the question is, do you believe that there is no prophesies about the Messiah's second coming in those writings?

Why isn't it a possibility that "it is finished" in John 28:30 can't just be referring to the Messiah's role in the flesh? Or what about the possibilty that he was just referring to the scripture he accomplished from verse 28?


For the sake of argument, let's just say that the law was "fulfilled" here at the Messiah's death and there aren't still components of law to be fulfilled at the second coming.... We still have an issue in Mathew 5.

Now this is a literal translation, so it may look a little weird; but I'm only using it to point out two words...


Matthew 5:17-18

Young's Literal Translation

17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;
18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.


Now the KJV uses the word "fulfil" in both verses when it is not the same Greek word. Why is this important? Because it helps us understand that "fulfilling" the law in verse 17 is not the same as all "coming to pass" in verse 18... which needs to happen in order for the law to pass away.

When you look for the same words in their original language in scripture, everything starts to line up. Both Luke 16:17 and Mathew 5:18 say that none of the law will disappear until "heaven and earth pass". So where in scripture can we find heaven and earth passing as well as the same word in Greek that the KJV translated as "fulfill" in Mathew 5:18??? :


Revelation 21:1-6

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say,
“See, the tent of God is among humans!
He will make his home with them,
and they will be his people.
God himself will be with them,
and he will be their God.
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There won’t be death anymore.
There won’t be any grief, crying, or pain,
because the first things have disappeared.”
5 The one sitting on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new!”
He said, “Write this: ‘These words are trustworthy and true.’”
6 Then he told me, “It has happened! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will freely give a drink from the spring of the water of life to the one who is thirsty.


Where it says "it has happened" is the same Greek word used in Mathew 5:18. This passage in Revelation fulfills that verse, not John 19:28-30.


To "fulfil the law" means to make it whole by carrying out what it says.... It does not mean to remove it or replace it. That will happen at the second coming as stated in Rev 21:1-6.
That sure is a lot of mental gymnastics in order to state that Christ failed at the Cross.

Fortunately, all Christians know you are wrong.


I'm wondering, though, what about all those jots and tittles not falling from the law? The 613 laws of Moses and the entire book of Leviticus?

Not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...


I'm expecting an olympic level event here...
 
Aug 20, 2021
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That’s funny. god told Adam the moment he sinned he would die. (The penalty)
the law was given to prove to everyone we have sinned and fallen short. It was nit given to show us how to live. The ten commands written on stone are called the ministers of death. Because anyone who broke even 1 received the death sentence (spiritual death)
when people try to make them as a means on how to live. They destroy the purpose of the law. And will never find out how to live. Because that’s not why they were given
the Jews messed that up and people like you are following in their footsteps
It was not the
Jews. It was the religious that failed not the jews not 1 jew will be comdemned.[Not all that say they r jew r jews]Jews r thous that have the faith of Abraham
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Its pretty obvious now that whenever you are proven wrong and have no logical argument to the topic and hand, rather than conceding a point you ignore it and try to shift the topic to something about the person.

Was Adam not given the instruction not to eat of the tree before he broke that instruction (sinned)?
well yu have not proven me wrong, so it really does not matter

Sin is ANYTHING not done out of love. I think Jesus made this clear when he spoke of the law of Love.

Paul even iterated it when he said if we do things and have no love. Well you get the point

You have been shown so many times the purpose of the law. You refuse to acknowledge it. And continue to insist you understand it. You even refuse to acknowledge you teach works. Even though in your own words you state grace is only given to those who TRY HARD.

Face it dude, People who died in the flood with no law will not get to heaven, they will nt get an out because their was no law. They are dead because of sin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Its painfully obvious to us.

Not sure why the legalists have such a hard time. But Historically, they have always had a difficult time with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thats because they can’t get self out of the way. Pride is a hard thing to break, especially wen you cant see it.

Thats why it is so dangerous and the number 1 sin in scripture.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It was not the
Jews. It was the religious that failed not the jews not 1 jew will be comdemned.[Not all that say they r jew r jews]Jews r thous that have the faith of Abraham
1 A jew is a person who comes from the tribe of Judah
2. A jew is a name given to those who come from the lower kingdom. “Judah”

So yes, there will be many jews in hell. Saul as a pharisees jew was lost. Until he found his site on the road to Damascus and became paul, a saved jew
 
Aug 20, 2021
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1 A jew is a person who comes from the tribe of Judah
2. A jew is a name given to those who come from the lower kingdom. “Judah”

So yes, there will be many jews in hell. Saul as a pharisees jew was lost. Until he found his site on the road to Damascus and became paul, a saved jew
eternally-gratefull yes that [nic-code-d-mus] nicolaitans doctrine.I mean one defined by the flesh one buy the spirit.Might u consider the persons definition of the sound. Rather then that of a dictionary.
 
Aug 20, 2021
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It is written: a jew is one that's circumcision is of the heart
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
eternally-gratefull yes that [nic-code-d-mus] nicolaitans doctrine.I mean one defined by the flesh one buy the spirit.Might u consider the persons definition of the sound. Rather then that of a dictionary.
Forgive me but I ave not the slightest idea f what you are trying to say.

I just gave the different ion of what a JEW is.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is written: a jew is one that's circumcision is of the heart
There are spiritual jews and their are physical jews (s although I do not like to use this term. it is a term replacement theologians like to use. The church did not replace Israel. We are spiritual children of Abraham, who was a gentile. Not judah, who is just one of 12 children of Jacob.
 
Aug 8, 2021
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That sure is a lot of mental gymnastics in order to state that Christ failed at the Cross.

Fortunately, all Christians know you are wrong.


I'm wondering, though, what about all those jots and tittles not falling from the law? The 613 laws of Moses and the entire book of Leviticus?

Not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...


I'm expecting an olympic level event here...
That sure is a lot of mental gymnastics in order to state that Christ failed at the Cross.

Fortunately, all Christians know you are wrong.


I'm wondering, though, what about all those jots and tittles not falling from the law? The 613 laws of Moses and the entire book of Leviticus?

Not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...


I'm expecting an olympic level event here...
I think you have all of the gold medals. All of that I posted and you didn't address a single scripture....just more unsupported claims from your religion.
 
Aug 20, 2021
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There are spiritual jews and their are physical jews (s although I do not like to use this term. it is a term replacement theologians like to use. The church did not replace Israel. We are spiritual children of Abraham, who was a gentile. Not judah, who is just one of 12 children of Jacob.
semantics saints could b called hillbillys we learned how 2 be the fly k?
 
Aug 20, 2021
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What scripture supports this.... I don't recognize this bible version.
people where calling on the name of the lord before the flood.& it is written those that died without the law will b judge without the law their consciousness being their hope or despair