How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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Aug 2, 2021
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"Our rapture" you repeat this short phrase over & over in your posts. (Which I have great difficulty reading, with all the added symbols, caps, no caps, etc!)

But never once do you offer a verse which has the word rapture in it! Let alone "our rapture!" I dare you to use a concordance or Greek lexicon and find this word "rapture" on any Bible except Jerome's 4th century Latin. This is a transliteration mistake.

"Our" is a plural, 1st person possessive pronoun. The genitive in Greek. Where do you find this in the Bible, coupled with rapture? No where, since rapture is not there.

When I see repeated posts by someone, raving about a phrase like "our rapture" with no references from the Bible, I have no choice but to realize this is a man made, non-Biblical term.

Nehemiah also said something about the rapture being our "blessed hope!" But, if there is no rapture, then this phrase has been misread. In fact, the Second Coming is our "blessed hope!

"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," Titus 2:13

What is the hope? An event or a person? The false rapture doctrine has ensnared people to look for an event, rather than Jesus Christ. And NO doctrine that takes our eyes off Jesus & onto an event can ever be true!

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

Verse 3 makes it clear that:

"All who have this hope in him" NIV

"And everyone who has this hope focused[n] on him purifies[o] himself, just as Jesus[p] is pure)." NET

"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." ESV

This constant emphasis upon the rapture heretical! We do not await an event! We await Christ himself, or his promised Second Coming, which is all about Christ, not a secret special rapture, to escape tribulation, which is all about us. The rapture is a narcissistic, self centred, man-made doctrine!
This is BEAUTIFUL - Thank You
 

TheLearner

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One of the arguments most opponents to the Rapture use is that it can't be right as it was a theory developed much later in comparison to other views. They all say that it began around...

...
There are many more.
"
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)
Please help support the mission of New Advent and get the full contents of this website as an instant download. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99...

All things have been created for the service of man. The deceits, wickedness, and apostate power of Antichrist. This was prefigured at the deluge, as afterwards by the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth]."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm


The rest of the story. Wife says get off the computer now, God Bless all Daniel
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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You keep raising up this straw man of two returns of Christ when it has already been explained that there is only one Second Coming of Christ to earth. You can call it a "return" if you wish. But Christ does NOT return to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture. He does come for His saints, whether you wish to believe that or not.

Backpeddling like mad and finding it very difficult to cover the treadmarks.

"Christ does not return to earth at the resurrection" According to scripture, he does.

The return we wait for is his visible appearance. Not a secret evactuation.
When he touches the clouds the whole earth will tremble as it did at Sinai.


2 Thes 1 (CSB)
4 Therefore, we ourselves boast about you among God’s churches—about your perseverance and faith in all
the persecutions and afflictions that you are enduring.
5 It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom,
for which you also are suffering,
6 since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation
of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels,
8 when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey
the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength
10 on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed,
because our testimony among you was believed.


Col 3:4 (CSB)
4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


Titus 2:13 (CSB)
13 while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


Mark 13 (CSB)
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light;
25 the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 He will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth
to the ends of heaven.


Luke 21 (CSB)
25 “Then there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and there will be anguish on the earth among nations bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the waves.
26 People will faint from fear and expectation of the things that are coming on the world, because the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 But when these things begin to take place, stand up and lift your heads, because your redemption is near.”
 
Aug 2, 2021
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But the tribulation we have in this world since pentecost is not the same which we will find in the time of the great tribulation.
Even when Christians in all time have a heavy time of persecution.
Hello brother and friend, how are you today?

Is there any difference??? Our Brethren who trusted the Gospel of our Lord were fed to lions (while fully alive), nailed to a cross to die slowly/increasing the suffering, ripped in two by horses, slowly skinned alive, beaten to death or worse and starved to death.

So in the Great Tribulation God actually has softened the suffering of the Saints by permitting the wicked one and his followers to behead those of us who REFUSE the mark of the beast.
Death by guillotine is, in my opinion, a very merciful way to go as compared to the previous mentioned.

What's your flavor?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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My understanding of what chapter 1 is conveying (2Th1) involves the following points (I've made in the past):

--in Scripture, wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts [close proximity], they refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD; so BOTH of these two chapters is the CONTEXT, and in which these same two phrases are used (referring to the SAME future TIME-PERIOD [i.e. the [7] TRIB YRS])

--chpt 2 is Paul explaining about "the day of the Lord" that the false conveyors purport "IS ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" and him telling WHY it's not so;

--chpt 1 uses the phrase "IN THAT DAY" ("among all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY"--this is not referring to the Thessalonians THEMSELVES and what THEY came to believe, prior to this writing)
 
Aug 2, 2021
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My understanding of what chapter 1 is conveying (2Th1) involves the following points (I've made in the past):

--in Scripture, wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts [close proximity], they refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD; so BOTH of these two chapters is the CONTEXT, and in which these same two phrases are used (referring to the SAME future TIME-PERIOD [i.e. the [7] TRIB YRS])

--chpt 2 is Paul explaining about "the day of the Lord" that the false conveyors purport "IS ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" and him telling WHY it's not so;

--chpt 1 uses the phrase "IN THAT DAY" ("among all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY"--this is not referring to the Thessalonians THEMSELVES and what THEY came to believe, prior to this writing)

The author of 1 Thessalonians is the SAME author of 2 Thessalonians - go figure....

Paul laid the ground work in 1 Thessalonians for the undisputed factual ORDER of our Lord's Coming and our being gathered together/up to Him - "by the word of the Lord"

2 Thessalonians 2 is not a redo/correction of 1 Thessalonians.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thess 2

Interesting COINCIDENCE - that 1 Thessalonians ch 4 and 2 Thessalonians ch 2 are exactly mentioned in Revelation!!!!!

WOW - what a coincidence!
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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FWIIW - I believe the original [good] manuscripts for the N.T. were the Koine Greek Textus Receptus.

In other words, it was originally written in Greek.

Consider the scope of this verse:

Revelation 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Just/Only Israel?

Kinda doubt it...
Ok.

What I mean is like Mark writing his book using Greek but using 'kai' like 'va' (a is a shwa here) in Hebrew, using 'and' like it is used in Hebrew.
 

presidente

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You keep raising up this straw man of two returns of Christ when it has already been explained that there is only one Second Coming of Christ to earth. You can call it a "return" if you wish. But Christ does NOT return to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture. He does come for His saints, whether you wish to believe that or not.
I Thes. 4:15 shows us the rapture happens at the Lord's coming/parousia.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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It does teach that Church will be spared the satanic persecutions of great trib. The bible however not say the church will be removed before that tribulation period. Jesus described church being persecuted by enemy in Olivet discourse, and In Rev we again see church (the believers in Christ) being persecuted by and even overcome and killed matching what had told us.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Kinda hard to see AoD and flee to mountains if you are raptured up to heaven before this happens.

Pretrib simply isn't in the bible. Only posttrib is there.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

That's great tribulation and it is satan persecuting the church!
And the bride is an overcomer! The Lord calls the martyrs overcomers.
It's not how we would choose to gain victory. It goes against every inclination of our flesh but it is reality from Gods POV.


Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.


I think that's why he forewarns us about this unique, short, time in human history.

Dan 7:21
As I was watching, this horn waged war against the holy ones and was prevailing over them
Rev 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Imagine if we found ourselves in that time but had never been warned it could happen.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ [ @DavidTree 's Post #186]

(I've mentioned...) Paul speaks, in 1Th5:1-3, of the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time period being:

--LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

--Jesus spoke of these (very things) in His Olivet Discourse (but in the PLURAL--SAME WORD though, that Paul uses here in 1Th5); so Paul is referring to the INITIAL ONE (of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that point), namely, the FIRST ONE BEING "Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6... so the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is Rev6:2 the rider of the white horse with A BOW ("bow" often meaning "DECEPTION," elsewhere in Scripture);

--the "SEALS" are a part of what Rev1:1 / 1:19c /4:1 refers to AS "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. WITHIN the "7-yr Trib"--so SEAL #1 to His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth, is the "7 years" [not to mention all that follows 4:1, some of which describes what takes place UP IN HEAVEN around the throne, chpts 4-5, as Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" by beginning with His OPENING SEAL #1 at the START of the Trib [/7-yrs]);

--in 2Th2:1-3 Paul provides the SEQUENCE (how ONE ITEM[/event] relates time-wise / sequence-wise to the OTHER ITEM[/time-period]) and says ONE THING *FIRST*--"THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"--the one PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED in the text in v.1 (before the OTHER THING[/time-period] can be present to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord," aka the 7 TRIB YEARS, that ARRIVES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--not at the END of all those]);

--Paul REPEATS THAT SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a passage, which SEQUENCE also *agrees* with the SEQUENCE he'd already covered in 1Th4-through-5; as well as (in the SAME WAY) ALL OTHER eschatological passages covering this Subject (like Matthew 24 does, like Revelation 4:1 thru chpt 19 does, like Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26b] does, etc...)



... Many folks fail to grasp what Paul is actually conveying in chpt 2... especially due to their not "defining" the phrase "the day of the Lord" (v.2) as scripture itself defines it (as shown above, IN BRIEF), but rather as some have defined it in a "made up" way, to mean something else... and then their failing to DISTINGUISH in that chapter (or the 2-chpt context even) things that are NOT the same, as though they ARE the same
  • (like 2:1 says, "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [where WE will GO "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ('the coming/presence/parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ') and NO ONE ELSE IN ATTENDANCE THERE! ('so [IN THIS WAY] shall WE ever be WITH / UNIONed-with [G4862!] the Lord"--NO ONE ELSE! --NOT the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS"!! NO! (He's NOT "MARRYING" THOSE!!)]... that/v.1 is NOT the SAME as v.8's [later occurrence] "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" (i.e AT Luke 12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom!)... THEN the meal [G347]!!)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ IOW, one of the primary shortcomings of the varying "rapture-timing viewpoints" (aside from the "pre-trib viewpoint" which has the least amount of problems IN THIS AREA) is the disregarding of CHRONOLOGY ISSUES as revealed in Scripture. No viewpoint I've heard in my 45 years of studying (and discussing) the Subject comes close to presenting a better case than does the "pre-trib" perspective, I've found...





[we are exhorted to be "CORRECTLY APPORTIONING the word of truth" (not lumping it all together into one big mish-mash of MUSH ;) ); and to distinguish the things which differ... I find that many ppl simply lump words and phrase into the same mold, and come out with a completely different msg to what the TEXT ITSELF is actually conveying, thus coming to an incorrect interpretation...]
 
Aug 2, 2021
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^ [ @DavidTree 's Post #186]

(I've mentioned...) Paul speaks, in 1Th5:1-3, of the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time period being:

--LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

--Jesus spoke of these (very things) in His Olivet Discourse (but in the PLURAL--SAME WORD though, that Paul uses here in 1Th5); so Paul is referring to the INITIAL ONE (of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that point), namely, the FIRST ONE BEING "Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6... so the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is Rev6:2 the rider of the white horse with A BOW ("bow" often meaning "DECEPTION," elsewhere in Scripture);

--the "SEALS" are a part of what Rev1:1 / 1:19c /4:1 refers to AS "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. WITHIN the "7-yr Trib"--so SEAL #1 to His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth, is the "7 years" [not to mention all that follows 4:1, some of which describes what takes place UP IN HEAVEN around the throne, chpts 4-5, as Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" by beginning with His OPENING SEAL #1 at the START of the Trib [/7-yrs]);

--in 2Th2:1-3 Paul provides the SEQUENCE (how ONE ITEM[/event] relates time-wise / sequence-wise to the OTHER ITEM[/time-period]) and says ONE THING *FIRST*--"THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"--the one PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED in the text in v.1 (before the OTHER THING[/time-period] can be present to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord," aka the 7 TRIB YEARS, that ARRIVES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--not at the END of all those]);

--Paul REPEATS THAT SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a passage, which SEQUENCE also *agrees* with the SEQUENCE he'd already covered in 1Th4-through-5; as well as (in the SAME WAY) ALL OTHER eschatological passages covering this Subject (like Matthew 24 does, like Revelation 4:1 thru chpt 19 does, like Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26b] does, etc...)



... Many folks fail to grasp what Paul is actually conveying in chpt 2... especially due to their not "defining" the phrase "the day of the Lord" (v.2) as scripture itself defines it (as shown above, IN BRIEF), but rather as some have defined it in a "made up" way, to mean something else... and then their failing to DISTINGUISH in that chapter (or the 2-chpt context even) things that are NOT the same, as though they ARE the same
  • (like 2:1 says, "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [where WE will GO "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ('the coming/presence/parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ') and NO ONE ELSE IN ATTENDANCE THERE! ('so [IN THIS WAY] shall WE ever be WITH / UNIONed-with [G4862!] the Lord"--NO ONE ELSE! --NOT the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS"!! NO! (He's NOT "MARRYING" THOSE!!)]... that/v.1 is NOT the SAME as v.8's [later occurrence] "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" (i.e AT Luke 12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom!)... THEN the meal [G347]!!)
The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ including Matthew chapters 24 & 25 tell us, who believe, when He, our KING & Bridegroom is Coming back for His Bride/His Church/His Saints/His Elect/His Witnesses/His Martyrs/His Sheep

The Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ also know and have written concerning our being Gathered Together in Him.

The author of 1 Thessalonians is the SAME author of 2 Thessalonians - go figure....

Paul laid the ground work in 1 Thessalonians for the undisputed factual ORDER of our Lord's Coming and our being gathered together/up to Him - "by the word of the Lord"

2 Thessalonians 2 is not a redo/correction of 1 Thessalonians.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thess 2

The Apostle John agrees with the Apostle Paul and our Lord and declares this TRUTH:
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1John 2:18

Interesting COINCIDENCE - that 1 Thessalonians ch 4 and 2 Thessalonians ch 2 I John 2:18 are exactly mentioned in Revelation!!!!!

Unbelievable? or BELIEVABLE - Who do you put your trust in?
 

CS1

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Jhn 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: G2347 but be of good cheer; I have been victories over the world.
we always have tribulations yet Jesus said there will be Tribulation as the world has never seen nor will again in Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Context of the word Tribulation and the word is used outside of the Great tribulation also. Many do not know what Jesus answered in the Olivet Discourse. I asked earlier in this thread No one I have seen answered.

I will ask again. In Matthew chapters 24- 25 what did Jesus answer?
 
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No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56
It's the Biggest False Doctrine since the idealism behind Adam with 2 women [Lilith] was re-surged!
It's as equal to the current Movement of Hebraic Roots!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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The author of 1 Thessalonians is the SAME author of 2 Thessalonians - go figure....
I just said that...

...and that Paul says "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (the very ones JESUS SPOKE OF!, and NOT as being at the END point, see)... Parallel to / EQUIVALENT of SEAL #1 at the START of the 7 years (not ARRIVING AT, or even toward, its END).





But believe as you wish, DavidTree.
 
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we always have tribulations yet Jesus said there will be Tribulation as the world has never seen nor will again in Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Context of the word Tribulation and the word is used outside of the Great tribulation also. Many do not know what Jesus answered in the Olivet Discourse. I asked earlier in this thread No one I have seen answered.

I will ask again. In Matthew chapters 24- 25 what did Jesus answer?
Our Lord Jesus Christ said the SAME thing as the Apostles and Prophets.
You can safely and with Great Confidence put your trust in His Word.

Matthew 24:21 is TRUE
Are you saying He is not capable of keeping us through this time unto His Second Coming?

His Second Coming is clear in Scripture - He Returns and the dead in Christ Rise First = After that we who are alive and remain at His Coming are caught up (Raptured) to meet Him in the clouds. 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.… Matt 24:30 -31

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” Acts 1: 10-12
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I just said that...

...and that Paul says "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (the very ones JESUS SPOKE OF!, and NOT as being at the END point, see)... Parallel to / EQUIVALENT of SEAL #1 at the START of the 7 years (not ARRIVING AT, or even toward, its END).





But believe as you wish, DavidTree.
No - you added this - "ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (the very ones JESUS SPOKE OF!, and NOT as being at the END point, see).. "

You keep making the error of "adding to and taking away" from Scripture which is really really BAD to do, brother.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

How is that you do not see 'every word of God as flawless' and you seek to help Him out............
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
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Our Lord Jesus Christ said the SAME thing as the Apostles and Prophets.
You can safely and with Great Confidence put your trust in His Word.

Matthew 24:21 is TRUE
Are you saying He is not capable of keeping us through this time unto His Second Coming?

His Second Coming is clear in Scripture - He Returns and the dead in Christ Rise First = After that we who are alive and remain at His Coming are caught up (Raptured) to meet Him in the clouds. 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.… Matt 24:30 -31

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” Acts 1: 10-12

are you saying HE is not capable of taking us UP as He was?



I did not see you answer my question before you asked me your's


Many do not know what Jesus answered in the Olivet Discourse. I asked earlier in this thread No one I have seen answered.

I will ask again. In Matthew chapters 24- 25 what did Jesus answer?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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are you saying HE is not capable of taking us UP as He was?



I did not see you answer my question before you asked me your's


Many do not know what Jesus answered in the Olivet Discourse. I asked earlier in this thread No one I have seen answered.

I will ask again. In Matthew chapters 24- 25 what did Jesus answer?
What a awseome God we serve - our Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, has answered your question.

His Second Coming is clear in Scripture - He Returns and the dead in Christ Rise First = After that we who are alive and remain at His Coming are caught up (Raptured) to meet Him in the clouds. 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.… Matt 24:30 -31

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” Acts 1: 10-12

God's Protection for you is in this:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

Protection if we believe His Word.
Confusion if we add or take away from His Word.
Amen

i love and appreciate you - we are family
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
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You keep making the error of "adding to and taking away" from Scripture which is really really BAD to do, brother.
I'm pointing out the parallel passages (the very same thing YOU are doing--why is it WRONG for me to do so, but FINE for YOU??)






Are you trying to suggest that Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (in the "BEGINNING of birth PANGS" section) occurs at the same POINT IN TIME AS Matt24:29-31??

Tell me how you're understanding that, please.