How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Runningman]

No, Post trib is the least

We are told when the “catching up“ occures, there will be no signs, It will happen as a thief unexpectedly, It can happen at any time, it is imminent.

Post trib when Christ actually returns to earth there are many signs, We can pretty much KNOW when it will happen (the abomination of desolation is the key marker) and there are many signs, Everyone who is a child of God will not only be looking for this day, They will be praying for it. And they will KNOW when it will happen.

We also have saved, already judged, and given their rewards people in the throne room, Who claim they were purchased by the blood. (If the rapture had not happened yet. These people would not be here)

we also have the bema seat judgment of Christ which must occur BEFORE these people are given their rewards of gold silver precious stones, or wood hay and straw. As well as their robes and many crowns.If post trib is when this happens. There is no enough time to rapture everyone, Put everyone through this bema seat judgment, Reward them, and prepair them to return to earth with Christ.

I am sorry my friend. But of all the views. Post trib is the most unbelievable and impossible position in my view.

Read Matthew 24, there are plenty of signs that occurs before Jesus comes to gather His elect.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... and yet, Paul in 1Th5:2-3, says that "the DOTL ARRIVES" exactly like the first/initial "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... i.e. "SUDDEN / UNEXPECTED"... not well-after she's been in labor awhile (after a number of "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" have unfolded...)

-- https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-3.htm




[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" of Rev6... commencing at the START of the "7 year period" not commencing at its END]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

ἀφίστημι aphístēmi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575 and G2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Right. That is the VERB form ^ (G868), which some in this thread are saying one must not associate in any way with the word under discussion ...2Th2:3, "apostasia - NOUN" (G646).


Not even to associate the following (where the VERB G868 is used)--NO COMPARISON (they insist, according to their rule of how one should ascertain meaning of a text):

Hebrews 3:12 V-ANA [G868]
GRK: ἐν τῷ ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ
NAS: heart that falls away from the living
KJV: in departing from
INT: in departing from God


ZERO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER, according to their viewpoint...This verse IN NO WAY MEANS what our verse (2Th2:3) is saying, according to their "rule" of no connection between the noun and the verb IN ANY WAY... and they will rap your knuckles with their ruler if you suggest there is...




BTW, the same verb is found here:

Acts 19:9 V-APA-NMS [G868 ; speaking of Paul]
GRK: τοῦ πλήθους ἀποστὰς [apostas] ἀπ' αὐτῶν
NAS: the people, he withdrew from them and took away
KJV: the multitude, he departed from
INT: the multitude having departed from them




Now, if one can suggest that Heb3:12 is speaking of the same general IDEA that 2Th2:3 is referring to [tho some insist one MUST NOT, since one is a NOUN and the other a VERB], then why not Acts 19:9 (which uses the same verb)??

 

[Runningman]

^ ... and yet, Paul in 1Th5:2-3, says that "the DOTL ARRIVES" exactly like the first/initial "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... i.e. "SUDDEN / UNEXPECTED"... not well-after she's been in labor awhile (after a number of "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" have unfolded...)

-- https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-3.htm




[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" of Rev6... commencing at the START of the "7 year period" not commencing at its END]

There is not a verse that says "there are no signs before the rapture." what you're promoting is false. There are plenty of signs before the rapture that will signal it's going to happen. What there is no sign for is "the day or the hour" of the return on Jesus. Big difference there.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is not a verse that says "there are no signs before the rapture." what you're promoting is false. There are plenty of signs before the rapture that will signal it's going to happen. What there is no sign for is "the day or the hour" of the return on Jesus. Big difference there.

Okay, so where you say (what you're suggesting applies to) "DAY"... does this mean that you believe "our Rapture" and "the Return of Jesus" OCCUR ON DIFFERENT DAYS??

That's pretty much different from what I've BEEN hearing from you, according to your post-trib rapture viewpoint.

Just how many days apart do you surmise that our rapture and His Second Coming/return might be?

That is, how many days do you perceive that we will hang out "IN THE AIR" before His Second Coming/return will take place?

3.5 DAYS?? 2 DAYS? 7 DAYS? how many days will we be up there IN THE AIR before He "returns" (and we with Him), would you say??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is not a verse that says "there are no signs before the rapture." what you're promoting is false.

Here's what I said, though:

^ ... and yet, Paul in 1Th5:2-3, says that "the DOTL ARRIVES" exactly like the first/initial "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... i.e. "SUDDEN / UNEXPECTED"

The "DOTL" is an EARTHLY-located time period (it is NOT defined as "rapture [IN THE AIR]" / caught up / SNATCH"... they are completely DISTINCT items)




["the DOTL" ARRIVES exactly as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... That is referring to the FIRST OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of, which are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This threads title is misleading. The Pre Trib Rapture is popular in some Churches/Denominations. All those who adhere to the Nicene Creed believe in Christs second coming.

Good point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read Matthew 24, there are plenty of signs that occurs before Jesus comes to gather His elect.

Matt 24 is about Christs return to earth to set up his kingdom. And your correct. there are many signs.

The catching up of people there is no sign, No one knows the day or hour it comes as a thief it is imminent (it can happen any time)

This is why, although I am no longer a die hard pre tribber. I can not come to the view of post trib. There is too much against it for me to give it any plausability

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You have failed to see that "the brightness of His coming" relates to the the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels (see Revelation 19 and related passages). Now the question you have failed to ask yourself is "How could Christ come WITH His saints unless He had first come FOR His saints, and unless the Marriage of the Lamb had already been completed?" And that leads right back to the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture which occurs at least seven years before the Second Coming.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a divine necessity for several reasons, not least of which is the fact that when Christ comes at the end of the Great Tribulation, He comes WITH His saints from Heaven. Revelation 1:7 speaks of "clouds" which are a metaphor for the multitudes of saints and angels surrounding Christ at His coming to earth. They are all arrayed in white and radiating light, therefore they give the appearance of clouds through which light is shining.

The WITH/FOR perspective you make such a big deal about is a non-issue. It's not a rule.
At best it has been introduced as pretrib dogma due to limited mortal logic.

He comes WITH the spirits of millions of dead believers from heaven and blesses them with immortality.
He comes FOR still living believers and blesses them with immortality. He comes WITH the dead FOR their mortal bodies.
The only difference is perspective. We are all resurrected. The dead and the living.
The Lord will be emerging from the world of The Spirit to reconstruct matter itself into immortal bodies for those he loves.

WITH/FOR is irrelevant. With the saints and for the saints, Jesus COMES full stop.

I can't accept a false precept built on another false precept because people want to slap human limitations on God's actions.

 

[TheLearner]

excuse me illiteracy

"There are serious theological implications as a result of a lack of knowledge and understanding of basic biblical truths. For instance, in an Influence article by Ed Stetzer, 64% of Americans affirm that God accepts the worship of other religions, 52% affirm that Jesus is God’s first created being, and 56% affirm that the Holy Spirit is a “force” but not a “personal being.” Our lack of bible engagement is affecting what we think and believe about God. Something needs to change "
https://thepointmagazine.org/2492/s...c-of-biblical-illiteracy-in-the-21st-century/

https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04...-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/07/23/what-americans-know-about-religion/

 

[CS1]

"There are serious theological implications as a result of a lack of knowledge and understanding of basic biblical truths. For instance, in an Influence article by Ed Stetzer, 64% of Americans affirm that God accepts the worship of other religions, 52% affirm that Jesus is God’s first created being, and 56% affirm that the Holy Spirit is a “force” but not a “personal being.” Our lack of bible engagement is affecting what we think and believe about God. Something needs to change "
https://thepointmagazine.org/2492/s...c-of-biblical-illiteracy-in-the-21st-century/

https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04...-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/07/23/what-americans-know-about-religion/

The graph fails to address the cause and only the effects.


No relationship with Jesus unsaved
rely on their own ability to understand scriptures, not the Holy Spirit
only want to learn for head knowledge not to be transformed.

 

[DavidTree]

Here ^ , you are simply conflating two distinct things:

1) ONE THING that must come *FIRST* (BEFORE it can then be TRUTHFULLY SAID "that the DOTL IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]");

[and]

2) what takes place once "the DOTL" has ARRIVED (with its "man of sin") which is WHEN "God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (and the "THEM / THEY" of these verses is the SAME "THEM" that chpt 1:8 referred to "In flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON THEM that know not God and...," speaking of NON-BELIEVERS / the UNSAVED / who are NOT SAINTS / who are PERISHING...)



Notice the following words in vv.9,11 (AFTER the DOTL has ARRIVED, with its "man of sin" at the START of the 7 Trib yrs--sometime FOLLOWING its and his ARRIVAL then the following comes into play...):

9 whose coming [/ ARRIVAL / presence / advent / parousia] is according to the working [G1753] of Satan, in every power, and in signs, and in wonders of falsehood [G5579], 10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. 11 And because of this, God will send to them a working [G1753] of delusion, for them to believe what is false [the false - G5579], 12 in order that all those...




But v.3 is telling of something DISTINCT FROM THAT ^ which must come *FIRST* BEFORE it can THEREAFTER be TRUE [a true claim] "that the DOTL IS PRESENT"...

...ONE THING must take place *FIRST* (BEFORE) before it can be truthfully claimed that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (v.2) and that ONE THING said to be *FIRST* (per the text) is: "THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"...

--one of the FUNCTIONS of the definite article, where this word does not ordinarily require a definite article, is to POINT BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the text, not something FURTHER DOWN in the text... not forward to something that takes place once "the DOTL" is indeed IN PLAY (with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME). So, no.

And the passage you brought forth for consideration is referring NOT TO BELIEVERS / SAINTS / the SAVED / Christians / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / etc... supposedly [at least, in your mind and your suggestion] "falling away" / apostasizing... NO!

--The text in vv.9-12 TELL US *WHO* God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT THEY should believe THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI ...(that is, IN / WITHIN / DURING the 7 Trib yrs--whereas the OTHER thing--"THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"--takes place BEFORE it COMMENCES / BEFORE "the man of sin" even ARRIVES!)

You're simply CONFLATING two completely distinct items, here, incorrectly equating them. But many people do... you're not alone.

Many Brothers/Sisters in Christ have spoken to you and kindly refuted your error of twisting Scripture.

You refuse to accept the First Resurrection as stated in Revelation chapter 20 which only occurs after the 5th Seal is completed.
Revelation ch 6

i truly feel sorry for you and the judgement of twisting Scripture yo will answer for.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You refuse to accept the First Resurrection as stated in Revelation chapter 20 which only occurs after the 5th Seal is completed. Revelation ch 6

I am not sure if you are suggesting that Revelation 20 is where the First Resurrection begins, Indeed just like a Hebrew harvest, the First Resurrection occurs in three phases, and Revelation 20 presents THE LAST PHASE.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept... But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; [2] afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor 15:20, 23,24)

FIRST FRUITS = Resurrection of Christ
AT HIS COMING = Resurrection/Rapture of the saints
THEN COMETH THE END = Tribulation saints (Rev 20)

 

[ewq1938]

I am not sure if you are suggesting that Revelation 20 is where the First Resurrection begins, Indeed just like a Hebrew harvest, the First Resurrection occurs in three phases, and Revelation 20 presents THE LAST PHASE.

A resurrection is not a harvest so comparing those two as if they are the same is an issue. Secondly, the resurrection scripture speaks about is the dead in Christ being raised back to life (includes OT saints) and instead of a mortal body and life, they will have immortality. That happens in one stage, right before rapture happens.

 

[ewq1938]

FIRST FRUITS = Resurrection of Christ

Yes, Christ was first to resurrect as immortal from the first death.

AT HIS COMING = Resurrection/Rapture of the saints

That's everyone else, known as the Resurrection.

THEN COMETH THE END = Tribulation saints (Rev 20)

No. Any who died prior to second coming are raised in the above Resurrection. The end has nothing to do with anyone obviously. It means end of that age will happen. You can't just insert people into a verse when verse does not speak of them in that way. The end is not a resurrection of anyone. This is one of clearest examples of eisegesis I have ever seen.

 

[rayzor]

But like the thief entered heaven.Today u will b with me in paradise!And John the baptist was on that one mountan in after he died,talking to Jesus right?Some where raised from the dead after god ascended from the cross!How dos the rich man poor fit into the story

 

[TheLearner]

The graph fails to address the cause and only the effects.


No relationship with Jesus unsaved
rely on their own ability to understand scriptures, not the Holy Spirit
only want to learn for head knowledge not to be transformed.

What is your documentation Pope CS1?

 

[CS1]

What is your documentation Pope CS1?

I am not a Pope , I am am Minister of the Lord Jesus

 

[DavidTree]

I am not sure if you are suggesting that Revelation 20 is where the First Resurrection begins, Indeed just like a Hebrew harvest, the First Resurrection occurs in three phases, and Revelation 20 presents THE LAST PHASE.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept... But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; [2] afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor 15:20, 23,24)

FIRST FRUITS = Resurrection of Christ
AT HIS COMING = Resurrection/Rapture of the saints
THEN COMETH THE END = Tribulation saints (Rev 20)

That is TWO First Resurrections my friend. I notice, again, no evidence in Scripture of two separate First Resurrections.

The error of pre-trib leads you into more and more error - all from your mind not from Scripture.

This is why NO ONE is able to meet the challenge of TRUTH except those who bow the knee to Scripture.

God does not accept man's opinions. He only accepts His Word.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Do not add to His words or take away - Proverbs 30

 

[Runningman]

Matt 24 is about Christs return to earth to set up his kingdom. And your correct. there are many signs.

The catching up of people there is no sign, No one knows the day or hour it comes as a thief it is imminent (it can happen any time)

This is why, although I am no longer a die hard pre tribber. I can not come to the view of post trib. There is too much against it for me to give it any plausability

In your belief, is the rapture and the return of Christ two distinct events? Does one occur before the other? Or is the rapture at the second coming of Christ? I believe there is bountiful evidence that immediately after the great tribulation, Christ returns, gathers His elect, then punishes the world with divine God power.

Once you realize that the rapture occurs when Jesus returns, then it will make a lot more sense. Personal recommendation, if you are interested, compare all of the rapture verses: Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 1-2, among others. Also glance over Isaiah 13 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6 then compare that to the "stars falling from heaven, the moon turning as blood, the sun not giving its light" referenced in Matthew 24. Notice that there are clear references to descending from heaven "at the last trump", as 1 Corinthians 15:52 says, in the verses I referenced. Give this an honest study and I'm positive you'll see that the rapture occurs at the return of Christ, after the great tribulation, then the day of the Lord (God's wrath) begins on the unbelieving world.