How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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What are you saying is my "error"?
Because I AGREE that "the dead in Christ shall RISE [G450] first" (that is, they are "resurrected" from the dead / from their graves)... and THEN "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH them [at the same time that THEY are also "caught up," not at distinct moments for the "caught up" action... nor is it *only* the "we which are alive" who are the ones to be "caught up"... as some have been suggesting]
I've never once suggested that the "shall RISE first" and the "caught up together with"-action ARE AT THE SAME MOMENT. No.
If you've thought I've said that, then you've read my posts incorrectly... which I suspect is what has happened, unless you can point out to me where I've said what you are saying I have
(which I do not believe I've EVER stated such a thing!)
Because I AGREE that "the dead in Christ shall RISE [G450] first" (that is, they are "resurrected" from the dead / from their graves)... and THEN "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH them [at the same time that THEY are also "caught up," not at distinct moments for the "caught up" action... nor is it *only* the "we which are alive" who are the ones to be "caught up"... as some have been suggesting]
I've never once suggested that the "shall RISE first" and the "caught up together with"-action ARE AT THE SAME MOMENT. No.
If you've thought I've said that, then you've read my posts incorrectly... which I suspect is what has happened, unless you can point out to me where I've said what you are saying I have
(which I do not believe I've EVER stated such a thing!)Theand years living are caught up to clouds and that is how they are "with" them that rose first. The dead who come back to life are not on the Earth when that happens. They are with Christ as scripture says he brings them with him.
The dead are in heaven when they rise back to life. They are not part of rapture. Only the living who have not died are change and raptured so they can be with Christ and newly risen dead in Christ.
The dead are in heaven when they rise back to life. They are not part of rapture. Only the living who have not died are change and raptured so they can be with Christ and newly risen dead in Christ.
The souls of those who died in Christ, who are spiritually alive, are currently in heaven with Christ.
They will accompany Christ in His Second Coming where their dead bodies are resurrected and transformed into the likeness of His Glorified Body.
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him
They will accompany Christ in His Second Coming where their dead bodies are resurrected and transformed into the likeness of His Glorified Body.
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him
You are are correct in that when the Lord descends to the air, that He brings with Him those believers who have died in Him. To be clear, it is their spirits that the Lord will be bringing with Him, where at which time their BODIES will be resurrected with their spirits being reunited with their resurrected immortal and glorified bodies. The word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection" always has to do with the physical body standing up again. Jesus is our example of this. For His body was in the tomb and His spirit in Hades. After 3 nights and days, His spirit returned to His body and resurrected immortal and glorified. This is why when the woman went to the tomb the did not find the Lord's body and that because He was back in.
To recap, their spirits are in heaven. Their bodies are in the ground. At the resurrection, the spirits of those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church will come with the Lord out of heaven and will be reunited with their resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies.
The word "harpazo' translated as "snatched up, force suddenly exercised, caught up" will happen to both the dead and the living. The only difference is that the living will not experience physical death, but will be transform on the spot and caught up with those who resurrected.
Those who are resurrected are also caught up, for the scripture states that after the dead are resurrected up into the air, then we which remain and are alive will be "Caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air." The only difference is that, the living in Christ will not be dead so that they won't have to be resurrected, but instead will just be transformed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. Both groups go up into the air to meet the Lord.
To recap, their spirits are in heaven. Their bodies are in the ground. At the resurrection, the spirits of those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church will come with the Lord out of heaven and will be reunited with their resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies.
The word "harpazo' translated as "snatched up, force suddenly exercised, caught up" will happen to both the dead and the living. The only difference is that the living will not experience physical death, but will be transform on the spot and caught up with those who resurrected.
Those who are resurrected are also caught up, for the scripture states that after the dead are resurrected up into the air, then we which remain and are alive will be "Caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air." The only difference is that, the living in Christ will not be dead so that they won't have to be resurrected, but instead will just be transformed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. Both groups go up into the air to meet the Lord.
13 times:The word Harpazo
Matthew 11:12: "suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."
John 6:15: "they would come and take him by force, to make him"
John 10:12: "and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the"
John 10:28: "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them"
John 10:29: "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch"
Acts 23:10: "the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them,"
2 Corinthians 12:2: "I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third"
2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"
1 Thessalonians 4:17: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in"
Jude 1:23: "save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating"
Revelation 12:5: "and her child was caught up unto God, and to his"
Matthew 11:12: "suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."
John 6:15: "they would come and take him by force, to make him"
John 10:12: "and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the"
John 10:28: "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them"
John 10:29: "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch"
Acts 23:10: "the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them,"
2 Corinthians 12:2: "I cannot tell: God knoweth
such a one caught up to the third"2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"
1 Thessalonians 4:17: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in"
Jude 1:23: "save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating"
Revelation 12:5: "and her child was caught up unto God, and to his"
Hello rayzor,
Now, here is the important part that most people brush over. What is "that day" referring to. Hint: it is found in verse 2 which is "The Day of the Lord" which is not the same as the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. Not recognizing this is where all of misinterpretation comes from. The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (rapture), is closely linked with the Day of the Lord (the wrath of God" which follows the gathering of the church.
The Thessalonians knew Paul's teaching on this subject, i.e. that the gathering of the church would take place first, which would then be followed by the period of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. There were false teachers proclaiming that "The Day of the Lord" had already come. And Paul says that the proof of the Day of the Lord being here is when the apostasy takes place and that man of lawlessness is revealed. Basically they were writing Paul and saying, "Hey Paul, there are some guys here saying that the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath has begun, so why haven't we been caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to your teaching?
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him = Is imminent and takes place prior to the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath which follows the gathering of the church, with the proof being the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.
Now, here is the important part that most people brush over. What is "that day" referring to. Hint: it is found in verse 2 which is "The Day of the Lord" which is not the same as the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. Not recognizing this is where all of misinterpretation comes from. The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (rapture), is closely linked with the Day of the Lord (the wrath of God" which follows the gathering of the church.
The Thessalonians knew Paul's teaching on this subject, i.e. that the gathering of the church would take place first, which would then be followed by the period of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. There were false teachers proclaiming that "The Day of the Lord" had already come. And Paul says that the proof of the Day of the Lord being here is when the apostasy takes place and that man of lawlessness is revealed. Basically they were writing Paul and saying, "Hey Paul, there are some guys here saying that the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath has begun, so why haven't we been caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to your teaching?
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him = Is imminent and takes place prior to the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath which follows the gathering of the church, with the proof being the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.
The Second Coming of Christ is the Day of the Lord - misinterpretation comes from those, like yourself, who act independently of Scripture, just as you did in your statement: "takes place prior to the Day of the Lord."
His First Coming was to save man and correct error of interpretation of the Law and Scripture.
His Second Coming is to complete His Salvation, which is the Resurrection of the Just and Judgement upon the unjust.
You would do well to receive His Blessing by trusting His Word and by heeding His warning of the pitfall of pride.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30: 5-6
You believe yourself greater and having more knowledge then the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ that you can add to God's words - this is a very serious delusion.
His First Coming was to save man and correct error of interpretation of the Law and Scripture.
His Second Coming is to complete His Salvation, which is the Resurrection of the Just and Judgement upon the unjust.
You would do well to receive His Blessing by trusting His Word and by heeding His warning of the pitfall of pride.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30: 5-6
You believe yourself greater and having more knowledge then the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ that you can add to God's words - this is a very serious delusion.
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Being fallible carbon life forms, we all can misinterpret it.
"
One passage that sometimes stirs controversy regarding illumination is John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” Jesus was speaking to His disciples in the upper room, giving them last instructions before His death. This special group of men was to be responsible for spreading the good news of Jesus Christ to the whole world. They had spent three and a half years with Him, watching His miracles and hearing His teachings. They would relay those things to the rest of the world, and would need God’s special help remembering those things accurately. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them of what had been said, so they could give it to others (including the writing of the Gospels). This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers (though there are other verses that speak of the Spirit’s illuminating work).
What is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating work in believers? Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us that the Spirit gives wisdom and revelation concerning Jesus Christ, and opens the eyes of understanding so we can know God’s purposes in our lives. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, God has revealed His plans for us by His Spirit, who teaches us spiritual things. The context here points to the Word of God as that which has been revealed. The Spirit of God will always point us to the Word of God for our instruction. As Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12-15, the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said. This repetition helps us remember and fully hear what God has already told us. Sometimes we have to hear things several times before we actually hear them. That’s where the Spirit comes in. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/biblical-illumination.html
"
One passage that sometimes stirs controversy regarding illumination is John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” Jesus was speaking to His disciples in the upper room, giving them last instructions before His death. This special group of men was to be responsible for spreading the good news of Jesus Christ to the whole world. They had spent three and a half years with Him, watching His miracles and hearing His teachings. They would relay those things to the rest of the world, and would need God’s special help remembering those things accurately. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them of what had been said, so they could give it to others (including the writing of the Gospels). This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers (though there are other verses that speak of the Spirit’s illuminating work).
What is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating work in believers? Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us that the Spirit gives wisdom and revelation concerning Jesus Christ, and opens the eyes of understanding so we can know God’s purposes in our lives. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, God has revealed His plans for us by His Spirit, who teaches us spiritual things. The context here points to the Word of God as that which has been revealed. The Spirit of God will always point us to the Word of God for our instruction. As Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12-15, the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said. This repetition helps us remember and fully hear what God has already told us. Sometimes we have to hear things several times before we actually hear them. That’s where the Spirit comes in. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/biblical-illumination.html
You said: "This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers " = this is error just as you stated in your opening =
"Being fallible carbon life forms, we all can misinterpret it."
Please read and Pray John 17 into your life (maybe you already have = keep praying until it becomes a integral part of you).
The Holy Spirit is the only Way to understanding the full scope of Genesis to Revelation.
You said: "the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said"
the Holy Spirit does even more then this.
Read, Pray, Study, Pray again the Gospel of John and the book of Acts - Seek and you will find, ask and it will be given...........
You may have done this already - do it again until you receive all He has for you - Love to you my Brother and Friend
"Being fallible carbon life forms, we all can misinterpret it."
Please read and Pray John 17 into your life (maybe you already have = keep praying until it becomes a integral part of you).
The Holy Spirit is the only Way to understanding the full scope of Genesis to Revelation.
You said: "the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said"
the Holy Spirit does even more then this.
Read, Pray, Study, Pray again the Gospel of John and the book of Acts - Seek and you will find, ask and it will be given...........
You may have done this already - do it again until you receive all He has for you - Love to you my Brother and Friend
You continue to confuse the Second Coming of Christ with the Resurrection/Rapture. These are two SEPARATE AND DISTINCT EVENTS for different purposes. So kindly stop making the same mistake over and over again as many others who are making a mishmash of the two events.
How in the world can the Resurrection of the saints happen at the same time that hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered at the battle of Armageddon (at the Second Coming of Christ)? Do you see the absurdity of what you have posted?
REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
How in the world can the Resurrection of the saints happen at the same time that hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered at the battle of Armageddon (at the Second Coming of Christ)? Do you see the absurdity of what you have posted?
REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Nehemiah my FRIEND and BROTHER - Good Morning (at least where i am)
You said - " the Second Coming of Christ with the Resurrection/Rapture. These are two SEPARATE AND DISTINCT EVENTS "
This is confusion my friend.
I love Revelation especially chapters 19 -22. The First Resurecction is in there - find it and believe it.
1 Thess 4 agrees with 2 Thess 2 agrees with 1 John 2 agrees with Matt 24 agrees with Revelation.
AMAZING they ALL AGREE - it is our limited minds that mix things up - No Worry - Seek the Holy Spirit of Truth and above all things follow this:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Prov 30
AND THIS:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22
You said - " the Second Coming of Christ with the Resurrection/Rapture. These are two SEPARATE AND DISTINCT EVENTS "
This is confusion my friend.
I love Revelation especially chapters 19 -22. The First Resurecction is in there - find it and believe it.
1 Thess 4 agrees with 2 Thess 2 agrees with 1 John 2 agrees with Matt 24 agrees with Revelation.
AMAZING they ALL AGREE - it is our limited minds that mix things up - No Worry - Seek the Holy Spirit of Truth and above all things follow this:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Prov 30
AND THIS:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22
13 times:The word Harpazo
Matthew 11:12: "suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."
John 6:15: "they would come and take him by force, to make him"
John 10:12: "and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the"
John 10:28: "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them"
John 10:29: "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch"
Acts 23:10: "the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them,"
2 Corinthians 12:2: "I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third"
2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"
1 Thessalonians 4:17: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in"
Jude 1:23: "save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating"
Revelation 12:5: "and her child was caught up unto God, and to his"
Matthew 11:12: "suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."
John 6:15: "they would come and take him by force, to make him"
John 10:12: "and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the"
John 10:28: "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them"
John 10:29: "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch"
Acts 23:10: "the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them,"
2 Corinthians 12:2: "I cannot tell: God knoweth
such a one caught up to the third"2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"
1 Thessalonians 4:17: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in"
Jude 1:23: "save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating"
Revelation 12:5: "and her child was caught up unto God, and to his"
Here is an example of how Jehovah Witnesses use that word fallacy to deny Jesus is God.
John 10:30
Easy-to-Read Version
30 The Father and I are one.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10:30&version=ERV
As you may know, John 10:30 is used to prove the Father and Son are of the same divine nature.
They, the JWs then quote from John 17:21 Father, I pray that all who believe in me can be one. You are in me and I am in you. I pray that they can also be one in us. Then the world will believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me. I gave them this glory so that they can be one, just as you and I are one. 23 I will be in them, and you will be in me. So they will be completely one.
They take the meaning of one from John 17 being one in agreement or fellowship --- I forget which. Then they read the meaning of "one" from John 17:21-23 into John 10:30 to deny Jesus is God.