Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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All true, but not the point.
Fortunately we don't have to second guess the story. Jesus tells us what He wants us to know. We are not to guess "what if".
Please recall what Jesus taught. In John 5:24 He said that those who believe have (possess) eternal life. So, the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.
You either believe what Jesus taught or your don't. So, a believer who repudiates his faith STILL POSSESSES eternal life. And on THAT basis, he shall NEVER perish. Because Jesus said so.
In John 10:28 there were no "conditions" given for never perishing. ALL recipients shall never perish is what Jesus said. He didn't say "some" recipients, or "only the faithful recipients" which is what it seem you believe.
This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship, the loss of fellowship and confession of sin and repentance.
All this is about what believers need to do when they sin and are out of fellowship. They need restoration of fellowship. Which is only available through confession and repentance, as the parable shows clearly.
Fortunately we don't have to second guess the story. Jesus tells us what He wants us to know. We are not to guess "what if".
Please recall what Jesus taught. In John 5:24 He said that those who believe have (possess) eternal life. So, the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.
You either believe what Jesus taught or your don't. So, a believer who repudiates his faith STILL POSSESSES eternal life. And on THAT basis, he shall NEVER perish. Because Jesus said so.
In John 10:28 there were no "conditions" given for never perishing. ALL recipients shall never perish is what Jesus said. He didn't say "some" recipients, or "only the faithful recipients" which is what it seem you believe.
This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship, the loss of fellowship and confession of sin and repentance.
All this is about what believers need to do when they sin and are out of fellowship. They need restoration of fellowship. Which is only available through confession and repentance, as the parable shows clearly.
I don't need you or anyone else to go through the bible and explain to me why each line they look at doesn't really mean what it says, and that it REALLY means what you say it means. No thanks I don't agree with the way you've interpreted any of these verses and believe you've looked at them with the goal of making them fit your beliefs, that's the wrong way to read the bible. Jesus tells us that He loses NONE the Fathers given Him. I take His word over yours forever.
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If you wish to hold to OSAS then do it but I see a number of verses that lead me to the opposite view. To me the question becomes, if God is love and He is then He would not force anyone to be with Him that did not want to be. Yes we are told the no one can snatch them from Gods' hand and I believe that but I also believe that a person can walk away. If that were not possible then way the warnings about apostasy or turning back? Remember you cannot fall away from somewhere that you have not been.
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I understand this. I shared this view for a time as I grew, (and please understand I do not mean this arrogantly, or trying to imply I'm "further along than you", or anything at all like that) I'm not trying to "teach you" only share the fact that I do truly understand exactly where you're coming from because I reasoned it out that way too. (in fact I'm sure I have old comments on here saying this exact thing) Like, if I use my "free will" to choose Him do I then loose my "free will" the second I'm saved? Could I then, in theory of course, not choose to turn from him after being saved? Honestly that made no sense to me at all, even though we are clearly taught that we are going to be slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, right? The way I now look at it is honestly a combination of the two views, I know imagine the truth may lay somewhere in-between, but ultimately I believe 100% that once we are born again, once our sin is atoned for and His righteousness is applied to us, when our spirit is resurrected in that moment and by His grace and mercy we are made whole, reconciled to Him as we were created to be, being made totally new creatures in that moment, and Him saying that of ALL that the Father gives Him, He will lose none of us. I also believe that if they go out from us they were never truly of us. I do not believe that being born again is anymore reversible anymore than being born is. We can die yes, but what does His word say? Does it say we can be lost after salvation? I know the Hebrew scripture about those who have tasted and then turned away, but I do not at all see that it says that they KNEW our King in truth and turned away at all. I don't believe it's specific enough to be sure that's what it means, anyway we don't build doctrine from 1 verse.
Ahhh, just my thoughts and where I'm at anyway.
Ahhh, just my thoughts and where I'm at anyway.
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].
14 The Spirit is the [e]guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1&version=AMP
Done deal
Just because WE SEE people, in "opinion" , "walk away" (or what ever label)
Does NOT mean Our Lord is through with them, I.E. Israel
Only the LORD knows who comming and who's not, He chose before the foundation of the world
Hence:
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
After one is "sealed" , I beleive it becomes a matter of "crowns and rewards......"
"What did you do with what YOU were given(BY THE LORD) while you occupied?"
God bless!
14 The Spirit is the [e]guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1&version=AMP
Done deal
Just because WE SEE people, in "opinion" , "walk away" (or what ever label)
Does NOT mean Our Lord is through with them, I.E. Israel
Only the LORD knows who comming and who's not, He chose before the foundation of the world
Hence:
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
After one is "sealed" , I beleive it becomes a matter of "crowns and rewards......"
"What did you do with what YOU were given(BY THE LORD) while you occupied?"
God bless!
Saying a few words, especially with no understanding, will not save you. (Matthew 13:19) I went out the front at a Billy Graham crusade. I was 16. I filled in a decision card and prayed the prayer. Nothing stuck. I was really born again about 5 years later. I knew something had happened and that I was different. 50 years later, I recall almost nothing about the Billy Graham crusade. I remember clearly the time I was born again. It is still the greatest day of my life.
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OSAS, mantra of Arminian evangelicalism. without the recognition of the Father's election of a specific people, Christ's death in their behalf, and the Spirit's sealing of that same specific people, there is no reason to believe in "eternal security."
In other words, synergists have no consistent reason to believe in salvific assurance.
This issue then is: is salvation the work of God's kingly freedom (monergism) or is it a cooperative effort subject to failure (synergism) ?
If it is solely God's work, to His own glory, the God will not fail to accomplish all His holy will (Psalms 135:6, Daniel 4:34-35, Eph. 1:10-11).
Jesus said, "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of the One who sent me. And this is the will of the One who sent me: that all He has given me. Me, I lose none of it, but raise up on the last day. (Note: Jesus is talking specifically of salvation).
The question that must be answered is this: Can Jesus fail to do the will of the Father? He can not (John 8:29) Hence, Jesus must be able to be a perfect Savior of the elect. He must possess the capacity to fulfill the Father's will for Him.
Jesus repeat's this in John 10:27-29. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My, Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch the from the Father's hand.
Jesus's power to save, seen in Hi perfection as Intercessor, is laid out in Romans 8:33-34 " Who will bring a charge against the elect of God ? God is the one who justifies. Who is the condemning? Christ Jesus, the One who died, rather was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who is interceding for us.
Gods Blessings
In other words, synergists have no consistent reason to believe in salvific assurance.
This issue then is: is salvation the work of God's kingly freedom (monergism) or is it a cooperative effort subject to failure (synergism) ?
If it is solely God's work, to His own glory, the God will not fail to accomplish all His holy will (Psalms 135:6, Daniel 4:34-35, Eph. 1:10-11).
Jesus said, "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of the One who sent me. And this is the will of the One who sent me: that all He has given me. Me, I lose none of it, but raise up on the last day. (Note: Jesus is talking specifically of salvation).
The question that must be answered is this: Can Jesus fail to do the will of the Father? He can not (John 8:29) Hence, Jesus must be able to be a perfect Savior of the elect. He must possess the capacity to fulfill the Father's will for Him.
Jesus repeat's this in John 10:27-29. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My, Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch the from the Father's hand.
Jesus's power to save, seen in Hi perfection as Intercessor, is laid out in Romans 8:33-34 " Who will bring a charge against the elect of God ? God is the one who justifies. Who is the condemning? Christ Jesus, the One who died, rather was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who is interceding for us.
Gods Blessings
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E
How can you miss the point on the fact we stop having faith in people who ;eg us down. WHo prove to be untrustworthy.
One does nt just lose faith in christ.
What you have is people who BELIEVE, but they have no faith. Even demons believe.
Either way. John said they were never of us.. NEVEFR means never.
One does nt just lose faith in christ.
What you have is people who BELIEVE, but they have no faith. Even demons believe.
Either way. John said they were never of us.. NEVEFR means never.
I agree that the parable shows God's love 
Still does not change the rather salient FACT that an already saved person is not referred to as "lost" or "dead"
Still does not change the rather salient FACT that an already saved person is not referred to as "lost" or "dead"
Can you do that?
What a perfect reference to the plight of the Prodigal son.
Who sought to eat with the pigs for want of an ability to feed himself. But all of 2 Peter 2 is necessary to obtain the salient facts in it's teaching.
2 Peter 2
Only those who are redeemed in Christ in the first place are able to backslide into the ways of the world.
However, because of Jesus and the promise, no one will take us from his hand, of those the Father gives him he will lose none, to prove the backsliding Christian loses their Salvation, besides calling the Gospel message false, one would have to show that scripture that tells us God will remove his seal from us.
And then before going there we may wish to remember his parable about the single sheep gone astray from the flock.
The sheep wanders off, but the Shepherd seeks them out to return them home.
"Of all you have given me I will lose none."
No one! Can take us from the hand of he who knew the names of those in his eternal irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation through his grace, before the foundation of the world.
If we backslide, that is nothing our Omniscient Father did not foresee.
And still, our names were written in his Book of Life before the world was created. Because he, who created us, knows our names.
Who knows more about those salient facts? Eternal Omniscient God with his Book of Eternal Life?
Or those who insist Jesus died to guarantee an Oxymoron? "Eternal conditional revocable" salvation.
Who sought to eat with the pigs for want of an ability to feed himself. But all of 2 Peter 2 is necessary to obtain the salient facts in it's teaching.
2 Peter 2
Only those who are redeemed in Christ in the first place are able to backslide into the ways of the world.
However, because of Jesus and the promise, no one will take us from his hand, of those the Father gives him he will lose none, to prove the backsliding Christian loses their Salvation, besides calling the Gospel message false, one would have to show that scripture that tells us God will remove his seal from us.
And then before going there we may wish to remember his parable about the single sheep gone astray from the flock.
The sheep wanders off, but the Shepherd seeks them out to return them home.
"Of all you have given me I will lose none."
No one! Can take us from the hand of he who knew the names of those in his eternal irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation through his grace, before the foundation of the world.
If we backslide, that is nothing our Omniscient Father did not foresee.
And still, our names were written in his Book of Life before the world was created. Because he, who created us, knows our names.
Who knows more about those salient facts? Eternal Omniscient God with his Book of Eternal Life?
Or those who insist Jesus died to guarantee an Oxymoron? "Eternal conditional revocable" salvation.
You are very cordial so I do not take any offense at your words. While I can understand your thought process I have to disagree. I have looked at a number of comments on this matter and what I find is a great deal of confusion and in some case discord. From what I understand of God, as limited as that is, I see Him as one that exhibits love for His creation. The one thing that true love cannot be is forced. Since we do have a God given free will which allows us to choose or reject Him for salvation and since I have found nothing in that says that free will is taken away after we are saved I in all honesty can not see how or why God would make someone stay that did not want to stay.
For those that hold that those that leave were never really saved in the first place my question is what are you basing that on? If you are going to use 1Jn 2:19 my only comment is that I have heard and read a number of views on this verse. The text just does not give enough clear information re the faith of those that left. Did they have faith and loose it, did they try to integrate false doctrine into their faith or did they never really believe. We do not know.
What I do know for sure is that someone cannot fall away from somewhere they have not been. As always I stand to be corrected but until then I will stand where I have been, people can and some do repudiate their faith.
I have looked at a number of comments on this matter and what I find is a great deal of confusion and in some case discord. From what I understand of God, as limited as that is, I see Him as one that exhibits love for His creation. The one thing that true love cannot be is forced. Since we do have a God given free will which allows us to choose or reject Him for salvation and since I have found nothing in that says that free will is taken away after we are saved I in all honesty can not see how or why God would make someone stay that did not want to stay. For those that hold that those that leave were never really saved in the first place my question is what are you basing that on? If you are going to use 1Jn 2:19 my only comment is that I have heard and read a number of views on this verse. The text just does not give enough clear information re the faith of those that left. Did they have faith and loose it, did they try to integrate false doctrine into their faith or did they never really believe. We do not know.
What I do know for sure is that someone cannot fall away from somewhere they have not been. As always I stand to be corrected but until then I will stand where I have been, people can and some do repudiate their faith.