Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Icedaisey]

Thanks, Icedaisey. Yes, I'm pondering that question but especially in relation to how eternally-gratefull (and others like him) perceive Election. Their belief seems to be that God knew before the world began, who, through their own understanding, would come to faith in Christ, and based upon that faith, elected them. But, if elected on that basis, what purpose did it serve, and why - what could Election produce that being saved by their own faith didn't? Granted, I may not fully comprehend their position, but at this point anyway, it seems both illogical and self-contradictory . I'd be interested to hear their side of it.

As would I.

For me, it's fascinating to know God new the names of people he would deliver into His Salvation before there existed a world needing Salvation.

Those verses that lead us to understand God's having purposed Salvation for those He elected to Save reiterates his Sovereignty over his creation. It also informs He has Predestined all that transpired, making Salvation to come to pass.

The question is answered then as to why He would cast Lucifer and his follower angels to earth rather than destroy them for their rebellion in Heaven.

Another point too is, how do angels sin in what is to be the final home for human souls rescued from sin on earth?
That though is how sin pre-existed Eden.

Which then encapsulates the other then encapsulates the other scripture in Isaiah 45.
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;there is no God but Me.I will equip you for battle,though you have not known Me,
6so that all may know,
from where the sun rises to where it sets,that there is none but Me;I am the LORD, and there is no other.7I form the light and create the darkness;
I bring prosperity and create calamity.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

The question is, why?

 

[Icedaisey]

As would I.

For me, it's fascinating to know God new the names of people he would deliver into His Salvation before there existed a world needing Salvation.

Those verses that lead us to understand God's having purposed Salvation for those He elected to Save reiterates his Sovereignty over his creation. It also informs He has Predestined all that transpired, making Salvation to come to pass.

The question is answered then as to why He would cast Lucifer and his follower angels to earth rather than destroy them for their rebellion in Heaven.

Another point too is, how do angels sin in what is to be the final home for human souls rescued from sin on earth?
That though is how sin pre-existed Eden.

Which then encapsulates the other then encapsulates the other scripture in Isaiah 45.
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;there is no God but Me.I will equip you for battle,though you have not known Me,
6so that all may know,
from where the sun rises to where it sets,that there is none but Me;I am the LORD, and there is no other.7I form the light and create the darkness;
I bring prosperity and create calamity.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

The question is, why?

Which then encapsulates the other then encapsulates the other scripture in Isaiah 45.
The joy of phone posting.

 

[justpassinthrough]

[2Co 1:21-22 KJV]
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Yes those who believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit as a seal of authenticity.


Whenever a king would send a messenger with a letter or message, he would drip wax on it at the bottom and take his signet ring that only he had with the seal of his kingdom and push it into the hot wax to show that the letter was authentic and from him, thus carrying his authority.


The Holy Spirit upon a true believer is the seal of authenticity that signifies that person is a genuine child of the King; The King of kings.






JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

cannot obey until saved, not before- blind, deaf, hardened heart until that occurs


[Jhn 12:37 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Yes the Pharisee’s whom this word referred to loved the praises on man more than God.


But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:37-42

• Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

It seems you are trying to apply a verse that referred contextually to the Pharisee’s, and religious rulers of the day, to all people.



Here is who receives the Holy Spirit —



And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32







JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Not my opinion, but God's word. The believer is sealed unto the day of redemption. It's a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



The redemption is the future adoption. Again, it's guaranteed to the one who first trusted in Christ.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Yes, those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, signifying they are authentic believers.



Whenever a king would send a messenger with a letter or message, he would drip wax on it at the bottom and take his signet ring that only he had with the seal of his kingdom and push it into the hot wax to show that the letter was authentic and from him, thus carrying his authority.


The Holy Spirit upon a true believer is the seal of authenticity that signifies that person is a genuine child of the King; The King of kings.




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Where does it say we must obey in order to be saved? "For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in him and obey to the end of their life shall not perish but have everlasting life" ?

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



In the original language believe carries the meaning of obey, and are used interchangeably in scripture. If a person believes the Gospel yet doesn’t obey it, then there believing is useless.



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 1:16


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8







JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Can you define "obey the Gospel" in unambiguous terms?

The command of the Gospel is “repent”.



Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38


Repent means to ”turn to God” in submission to Him as Lord.


If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.



They way we obey the Gospel command “repent”, is by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10





JPT

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



In the original language believe carries the meaning of obey, and are used interchangeably in scripture. If a person believes the Gospel yet doesn’t obey it, then there believing is useless.



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 1:16


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8







JPT

Amen

They can't respond to John 1- 6

 

[rogerg]

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32

"has given": in other words, they obey BECAUSE they were given the Holy Spirit

• Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

You forgot to include this verse, following those you chose. John 12:37 says nothing about their fear but their belief.
Their actions had nothing to do with being afraid of the Pharisees if that's what you are thinking

[Jhn 12:37 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

It seems you are trying to apply a verse that referred contextually to the Pharisee’s, and religious rulers of the day, to all people.

It seems not. Read my comment above. Their actions were from their beliefs, or the lack of them regarding Jesus, not because of their fears - they just couldn't believe in Him because that belief hadn't been given to them. Read verses 12:37 &40 again closely

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you define "obey the Gospel" in unambiguous terms?

The command of the Gospel is “repent”.

<sigh>

How is "repent" unambiguous? Could you narrow things down a bit? What do you mean by "repent".

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

This verse was said to people who literally put Christ on a cross. And in v.37 we SEE that they realized what they did to the Messiah. So they realized that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Messiah. So what did they do to repent?

Repent means to ”turn to God” in submission to Him as Lord.

Have you ever read a lexicon? It doesn't mean that at all.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.

How do you do that? I mean, specifically.



They way we obey the Gospel command “repent”, is by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10





JPT[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"has given": in other words, they obey BECAUSE they were given the Holy Spirit



You forgot to include this verse, following those you chose. John 12:37 says nothing about their fear but their belief.
Their actions had nothing to do with being afraid of the Pharisees if that's what you are thinking

[Jhn 12:37 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



It seems not. Read my comment above. Their actions were from their beliefs, or the lack of them regarding Jesus, not because of their fears - they just couldn't believe in Him because that belief hadn't been given to them. Read verses 12:37 &40 again closely

Yet you continually ignore chapters one through 6
You can;t have it both ways my friend

 

[Icedaisey]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



In the original language believe carries the meaning of obey, and are used interchangeably in scripture. If a person believes the Gospel yet doesn’t obey it, then there believing is useless.



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 1:16


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8







JPT

And there is the "obedience" you infer is necessary for Salvation. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

 

[Icedaisey]

Yes, those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, signifying they are authentic believers.



Whenever a king would send a messenger with a letter or message, he would drip wax on it at the bottom and take his signet ring that only he had with the seal of his kingdom and push it into the hot wax to show that the letter was authentic and from him, thus carrying his authority.


The Holy Spirit upon a true believer is the seal of authenticity that signifies that person is a genuine child of the King; The King of kings.




JPT

Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Ephesians 1 (NET/MIGV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed[e] is[f] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed[g] us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For[h] he chose us in Christ[i] before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless[j] before him[k] in love.[l] 5 He did this by predestining[m] us to adoption as his[n] legal heirs[o] through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure[p] of his will— 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace[q] that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.[r] 7 In him[s] we have redemption through his blood,[t] the forgiveness of our offenses,[u] according to the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. 9 He did this when he revealed[v] to us the mystery[w] of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth[x] in Christ,[y] 10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up[z] all things in Christ—the things in heaven[aa] and the things on earth.[ab] 11 In Christ[ac] we too have been claimed as God’s own possession,[ad] since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope[ae] on Christ,[af] would be to the praise of his glory. 13 And when[ag] you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ[ah]—you were marked with the seal[ai] of the promised Holy Spirit,[aj] 14 who is the down payment[ak] of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession,[al] to the praise of his glory.

 

[rogerg]

Yet you continually ignore chapters one through 6
You can;t have it both ways my friend

Makes no sense

 

[Icedaisey]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you define "obey the Gospel" in unambiguous terms?

<sigh>

How is "repent" unambiguous? Could you narrow things down a bit? What do you mean by "repent".



This verse was said to people who literally put Christ on a cross. And in v.37 we SEE that they realized what they did to the Messiah. So they realized that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Messiah. So what did they do to repent?


Have you ever read a lexicon? It doesn't mean that at all.

How do you do that? I mean, specifically.



They way we obey the Gospel command “repent”, is by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10





JPT

[/QUOTE]Lexicon:
the vocabulary of a person, language, or branch of knowledge.
"the size of the English lexicon"

• a dictionary, especially of Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, or Arabic.
  "a Greek–Latin lexicon"

Repent

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you define "obey the Gospel" in unambiguous terms?

<sigh>

How is "repent" unambiguous? Could you narrow things down a bit? What do you mean by "repent".

This verse was said to people who literally put Christ on a cross. And in v.37 we SEE that they realized what they did to the Messiah. So they realized that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Messiah. So what did they do to repent?

Have you ever read a lexicon? It doesn't mean that at all.
Lexicon:
the vocabulary of a person, language, or branch of knowledge.
"the size of the English lexicon"

• a dictionary, especially of Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, or Arabic.
  "a Greek–Latin lexicon"

Repent[/QUOTE]
Well, that was ambiguous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Makes no sense

Makes n sense for you to ignore what was said?

I agree

Jphn 1. But as many as have RECIEVED HIM

John 3 Whover looks to the son lifted n the cross and believes.

John 4, Ask and I would have given you living water

John 5 Hear my words and believe

John 6 labor for food which endures forever, eat, drink See believe, chew

all the things Jesus said we must DO to recieve Life or to become his son

Why can’t you see this?

 

[fredoheaven]

And there is the "obedience" you infer is necessary for Salvation. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

John3:36 shows those who will and those who will not believe, shall have a life or the wrath of God. Believing is not good work but it works.

 

[rogerg]

Makes n sense for you to ignore what was said?

I agree

Jphn 1. But as many as have RECIEVED HIM

John 3 Whover looks to the son lifted n the cross and believes.

John 4, Ask and I would have given you living water

John 5 Hear my words and believe

John 6 labor for food which endures forever, eat, drink See believe, chew

all the things Jesus said we must DO to recieve Life or to become his son

Why can’t you see this?

We've been through this all before but you seem to have forgotten. Okay, I'll do this again, but please try to remember for next time.
My replies immediately follow your posts. If you don't understand them, let me know and I'll clarify but it's not that complicated.

"Jphn 1. But as many as have RECIEVED HIM"

[Jhn 1:13 KJV] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"John 3 Whover looks to the son lifted n the cross and believes."

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

"John 5 Hear my words and believe"

See my reply Jhn 6:64 -5, Jhn 6:44 - 45, preceding

"John 6 labor for food which endures forever, eat, drink See believe, chew"

[Jhn 6:36-37,
39 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


You know, eternally-gratefull, you seem to have a real problem in understanding/accepting that Jesus Christ is THE ONE and ONLY Savior.
I've asked you this before and you didn't answer directly, so I'll simplify it and ask you again.
Do you believe that we would be saved if we did nothing whatsoever to effectuate our salvation?

 

[rogerg]

John3:36 shows those who will and those who will not believe, shall have a life or the wrath of God. Believing is not good work but it works.

True belief in Christ is a gift given to some, but not to all. It comes not by our work, but only from/by the Holy Spirit