Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So, if you believe Christ is the Savior, how is it you don't believe that He is the one who saves?
your going to go here again?

He is the one who saves, I never said any different.

And believing Christ the Savior,
He was and is my savior. I never stated otherwise.

how then is it you think it would have to be added to or completed by us? Wouldn't that in effect say Christ's sacrifice was insufficient?
I did not complete. start or do anything to be saved, My faith was in HIM and HIS WORK, HIS WORD and HIS PROMISE

If I could save myself I would not have relied on him, I would have trusted in myself
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Since the question is also directed at me. I have these few comments:

Fallacy 1: Assumption we don’t believe Christ could not save us when we believe.

Christ says “believe on me”, the scripture says "He that believeth on me” If Christ says we are to believe are you going to say Christ is not going to save us? Yes, he will, that came from the mouth of our Saviour. It is God's will to believe.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Fallacy 2: Assumption we are adding or completing Christ saving power

We are saved by grace through Christ. Christ has already completed the work at Calvary. Believing is not in any way completing God’s work or Christ's work. To be saved means to believe in the complete works of Christ. That is why there is “whosoever” or “whoever”, or “if any one” that does believe will be saved. Romans 1:16 is to “anyone that believeth”

Fallacy 3: assumption over the insufficiency of Christ sacrifice

It is always by the agency/ instrumentality of faith in obtaining salvation. “through”. We don’t have to add what Christ did. Believing is not adding to Christ's Work. Christ already said, “It is finished”. The question is do you believe that Christ already finished salvation at the cross of Calvary? If not why? Do you believe Christ alone can save you? If not why? Do you believe that if you are not going to believe in Christ you will save?
But as many as have received him
God sent his son that whoever believes
Ask and I would give you living water
Seek and you will find
Eat, Drink work for the food which endures to life eternal. where you will never die.

Our faith is in Christ and his promises spoken in his word.

Not in self.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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I did not complete. start or do anything to be saved, My faith was in HIM and HIS WORK, HIS WORD and HIS PROMISE
If you consider your faith as something of your own doing, then you did try to do something. You may consider your faith
to be in Christ, but if it is of your doing, then it isn't of Christ. It must either be all of Christ or none of Christ
BTW, don't forget you initiated this recent discussion, I didn't, so it is fine with me to terminate it at any time
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you consider your faith as something of your own doing,
then you did try to do something. You may consider your faith
to be in Christ, but if it is of your doing, then it isn't of Christ. It must either be all of Christ or none of Christ
BTW, don't forget you initiated this recent discussion, I didn't, so it is fine with me to terminate it at any time
Its not. and I have told you this multiple times. on multiple occasions

You keep claiming you know things, Yet you keep telling me things that I have already explained to you

I have said from the beginning, it was God and all he gave me which allowed me to trust him. I could not nor would I ever do it on my own

Maybe this time you will finally understand what I believe?

Sadly. I almost doubt it :(

once again

My faith is not from me, Nor in myself

Please stop insisting it is.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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I have said from the beginning, it was God and all he gave me which allowed me to trust him. I could not nor would I ever do it on my own
Okay, so if you're saying that you believe you can contribute nothing whatsoever to your salvation to include faith - that faith is a gift from God,, then I stand happily corrected and apologize for my misunderstanding.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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has given": in other words, they obey BECAUSE they were given the Holy Spirit
Yes, He has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32


  • the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.


Nobody receives the Holy Spirit who doesn’t obey Him; obey the Gospel
 
Oct 31, 2015
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And there is the "obedience" you infer is necessary for Salvation. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




Believe = Obey
 
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Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Ephesians 1 (NET/MIGV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed[e] is[f] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed[g] us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For[h] he chose us in Christ[i] before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless[j] before him[k] in love.[l] 5 He did this by predestining[m] us to adoption as his[n] legal heirs[o] through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure[p] of his will— 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace[q] that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.[r] 7 In him[s] we have redemption through his blood,[t] the forgiveness of our offenses,[u] according to the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. 9 He did this when he revealed[v] to us the mystery[w] of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth[x] in Christ,[y] 10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up[z] all things in Christ—the things in heaven[aa] and the things on earth.[ab] 11 In Christ[ac] we too have been claimed as God’s own possession,[ad] since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope[ae] on Christ,[af] would be to the praise of his glory. 13 And when[ag] you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ[ah]—you were marked with the seal[ai] of the promised Holy Spirit,[aj] 14 who is the down payment[ak] of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession,[al] to the praise of his glory.

Yes, repent is how we obey the Gospel.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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Yes, He has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32


  • the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.


Nobody receives the Holy Spirit who doesn’t obey Him; obey the Gospel
In that context, the implication is not obey but follow.
πειθαρχέω (peitharcheō)
Strong: G3980
GK: G4272
to obey one in authority, Acts 5:29, 32; Tit. 3:1; genr. to obey, follow, or conform to advice, Acts 27:21

As should be the case for understanding how peitharcheō
would be applied in that scripture.


Otherwise, one could imply the moment a Christian does not discern God's leading in the proper way , and by consequence disobey God, His Holy Spirit would then depart.

Because the implication is obedience garners the placement of God's Holy Spirit. Therein disobedience would result in the eviction of the HS.
Which does not comport with scripture.
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




Believe = Obey
The one who does not believe. The wrath of God remains on him.

You are intent on insisting obedience retains Salvation. That's false Arminianism . Which teaches Salvation can be lost if we don't continue to labor to retain our Salvation.

That makes Jesus a liar.
When in truth Arminianism is the propagation of false doctrine.

No one will ever reason with proper exegesis the devout Arminian, Semi-Pelagian, away from their commitment to false doctrine.

Instead I find it best to leave them in their sense of eternal insecurity in their holding faith in Jacobus Arminius .
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The one who does not believe. The wrath of God remains on him.

You are intent on insisting obedience retains Salvation. That's false Arminianism . Which teaches Salvation can be lost if we don't continue to labor to retain our Salvation.

That makes Jesus a liar.
When in truth Arminianism is the propagation of false doctrine.

No one will ever reason with proper exegesis the devout Arminian, Semi-Pelagian, away from their commitment to false doctrine.

Instead I find it best to leave them in their sense of eternal insecurity in their holding faith in Jacobus Arminius .
She is not teaching works, or arminian type theology.

You still have a comprehension problem I see
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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That the best you can come up with? Whatever!
Good for you. Don't fall for the collaboration coming against The Word and you. 🎣

We know faith is from God through his grace. But now, for some, those scriptures don't exist.
The game being undertaken, and the collaborators liking the efforts of one another in the process, tells you truth isn't the issue.
The point is to see how long you,we, will try to convince a people through our efforts about what they don't accept as truth from God Himself.
And God tells us why that is too. Right?

You know what they say about feeding Devil's? They stay hungry once they've gained your attention.



Stay in The Word. Don't make an effort to turn around that which misrepresents the word just to bait 🎣 you to pay blasphemy attention.

And you're right. If truth gets us banned, falsehood is preferred. We're better off.Ban the Devil's. Not the Saints who stand against them.


Let this serve to inform the genuine here in the event they're being confused by the labors of the adversaries.

Where does faith come from?
ANSWER:

Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16).

By knowing our saving faith comes from God alone, it should encourage Christians to “not think of yourself more highly than you ought,” but remember God decides the measure of faith each one receives (Romans 12:3). The apostle Paul gives an example of the godly humility believers should have when they contemplate their own faith: “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:13–14). Paul understood faith in Christ was given to him because of God’s grace in spite of his own sinful life (1 Corinthians 4:7).

The Bible specifies the way, or the means, that God gives faith to people. “Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ” (Romans 10:17). It is the Word of God that produces faith. Someone could receive faith while hearing a sermon teaching the gospel, someone else by reading about Jesus in the Bible—any time the true gospel of Jesus is communicated, there is potential for faith. This is why it’s of paramount importance for believers everywhere to be obedient to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16–20) and tell people what Christ has done for humanity. Faith is not the product of a preacher’s compelling presentation, his eloquence, or even his theological soundness—faith is given through the message about Jesus. This is the means God has chosen.

It is good for anyone who wants faith to ask for it. God freely gives what is good to all who ask (Luke 11:9–12), and it’s good to ask for an increase of faith (Luke 17:5; Mark 9:24). Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith to be strengthened (Luke 22:32). As with any gift from God, it is our responsibility to exercise the gift and not become complacent, lazy, or apathetic (Romans 12:1–2, 6–8). Christians can find comfort and peace of mind knowing their faith is from God, because He has said He will finish the good work He started (Philippians 1:6). God is the Author and the Perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2a; Romans 8:29–30).
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Good for you. Don't fall for the collaboration coming against The Word and you.
Thank you, Icedaisey, that post was really outstanding and filled with true wisdom. I plan on rereading it multiple times

roger
 
Aug 20, 2021
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One bad thing about faith it reguires the absence of the one you love at lest in a since.Faith and works together brothers and sisters.That will please god.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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You should weep for yourself, not me
They are sad. But not as they imagine applies in their condemnation of you.

Look at the standard they judge your faith by when they abrogate the scriptures in the name of their own.
 
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Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Faith is not works.


 
Aug 20, 2021
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Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Faith is not works.
no kidding!:rolleyes: works can only be done by faith.After all if you don't believe you have an employer how can you believe your an employee.