How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[cv5]

Grasp that the Greek word for "know" in Acts 1:7, is a DISTINCT [DIFFERENT] Grk "know" word from the one in Matt24:36 (and parallels)... not to mention the one in 1Th5:1-2.

Then grasp that the "knows" word in Matt24:36 (and parallels), and stated BEFORE Jesus' death, is in the "PERFECT indicative," so is not reading in the way you are suggesting it reads.


Also study the "CHRONOLOGY" issues (and progressive revelation IN SCRIPTURE).



I strongly suggest you study this out... (don't take the lazy-man's way out of it)

Re: Matt 24:36 "know". Above my pay grade but here you go everybody....

What is present active indicative?

In the Present Active Indicative, the kind of action is linear, the relationship of the subject to the verb is active, i.e. the subject is performing the action rather than being acted upon, and the degree of contingency is zero, i.e., reality rather than hypothetical activity is in view.

Furthermore, what is the perfect stem in Latin? The perfect stem is from the 3rd principal part of the verb, and is usually different from the present stem.

Likewise, how do you translate perfect active?

It differs from the imperfect in that the imperfect relates ongoing, repeated, or continuous action. For this reason, the perfect is translated as "I have praised", "I did praise, or simply "I praised". To form the perfect active subjunctive, find the perfect stem, add "-eri-" then add the regular personal endings.

What does the indicative mood mean in Greek?

There are three moods in Greek: the indicative, the subjunctive and the imperative. The infinitive and the participle are condidered as moods as well. The indicative mood (οριστική) presents the action or the event as something real or certain, in other words as an objective fact.

 

[stilllearning]

.

When are you going to adhere to your own advice???

Pulling OT scripture to undermine or coax away, even slightly, what CLEARLY is stated by our LORD in Revelation is self serving.

Huh? How can you not use the whole bible old and new? When Christ spoke, he fulfilled what was written of him that was old testament. Revelation the revelation of Christ, portions of that are straight out of the old testament. Paul when he explained our spiritual armor you can find that in the old testament, not in a complete finished aspect like Paul laid out but the various different pieces of the armor if I may use that word, you sure can.

Not getting into other spiritual aspects of old and new testaments or covenants. However, with that said I don't find how one can read the old and then the new and not find the new is expounding upon what the old said. Now there are verses where it is pointed out in the new that a new mystery is being shown.

The topic here though the wrath, tribulation, the second coming, and etc they were first introduced in the old and the old even speaks more on the subject.

So if we are truly seeking truth which the word says thy word is truth, so why would we not take it all to find the truth since old and new it is all God breathed.

 

[DavidTree]

.


Huh? How can you not use the whole bible old and new? When Christ spoke, he fulfilled what was written of him that was old testament. Revelation the revelation of Christ, portions of that are straight out of the old testament. Paul when he explained our spiritual armor you can find that in the old testament, not in a complete finished aspect like Paul laid out but the various different pieces of the armor if I may use that word, you sure can.

Not getting into other spiritual aspects of old and new testaments or covenants. However, with that said I don't find how one can read the old and then the new and not find the new is expounding upon what the old said. Now there are verses where it is pointed out in the new that a new mystery is being shown.

The topic here though the wrath, tribulation, the second coming, and etc they were first introduced in the old and the old even speaks more on the subject.

So if we are truly seeking truth which the word says thy word is truth, so why would we not take it all to find the truth since old and new it is all God breathed.

Please review exactly what i said and get back to me - Thank You

also review my post #1968

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Re: Matt 24:36 "know". Above my pay grade but here you go everybody....

What is present active indicative?

Wait up a sec! = D


It's "PERFECT indicative active" (not "present")... see here:

["RIA" in right hand column] https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-36.htm [where the "R" stands for the "PERFECT tense"]

 

[cv5]

Re: Matt 24:36 "know". Above my pay grade but here you go everybody....

What is present active indicative?

In the Present Active Indicative, the kind of action is linear, the relationship of the subject to the verb is active, i.e. the subject is performing the action rather than being acted upon, and the degree of contingency is zero, i.e., reality rather than hypothetical activity is in view.

Furthermore, what is the perfect stem in Latin? The perfect stem is from the 3rd principal part of the verb, and is usually different from the present stem.

Likewise, how do you translate perfect active?

It differs from the imperfect in that the imperfect relates ongoing, repeated, or continuous action. For this reason, the perfect is translated as "I have praised", "I did praise, or simply "I praised". To form the perfect active subjunctive, find the perfect stem, add "-eri-" then add the regular personal endings.

What does the indicative mood mean in Greek?

There are three moods in Greek: the indicative, the subjunctive and the imperative. The infinitive and the participle are condidered as moods as well. The indicative mood (οριστική) presents the action or the event as something real or certain, in other words as an objective fact.

OOopps lol. Wrong cut and paste lol. Put me in the corner with a dunce cap.....

What does perfect active indicative mean?

Latin Perfect Active Tense

The perfect tense is used for action that has already been completed. English has two corresponding constructions: present perfect and simple past. The present perfect uses the present of "to have" plus the past participle. ... In Latin, the perfect indicative is equivalent to all of these.

 

[stilllearning]

Please review exactly what i said and get back to me - Thank You

also review my post #1968

This is why my post is formed as a question because sometimes not sure what you are saying so I form my reply as a question so you can then say no that is not what I am saying. At times I have just said not sure I am tracking can you explain or expound. At times like such I question as I have to just make sure I am hearing what you are actually saying. So you are saying that is not the point you were making, so I take you at face value and will re-read to see how I missed what you were trying to really convey.

 

[Absolutely]

You started on the Right Path to seek truth and then downgraded yourself with pride and empty words.
Until you return to Holy Spirit inspired seeking and speaking, your words are null and void.

I make you go against the word of God.

Dont lie about the Holy Spirit sir.

At any time you can pick up a bible and debate your challengers.

But you dont ever do that.

 

[Absolutely]

This is why my post is formed as a question because sometimes not sure what you are saying so I form my reply as a question so you can then say no that is not what I am saying. At times I have just said not sure I am tracking can you explain or expound. At times like such I question as I have to just make sure I am hearing what you are actually saying. So you are saying that is not the point you were making, so I take you at face value and will re-read to see how I missed what you were trying to really convey.

I dont think anyone here knows what he believes.

But anti pretrib is his obcession.

That is why he always answers in generalities.

( he thinks that is safe)

 

[cv5]

Looks like the post-tribbers have acquiesced.....as evidenced by the eerie silence and lack of critically convincing responses to certain bombastic pre-trib supporting posts.

You just know this had to be the outcome.....

 

[Absolutely]

Looks like the post-tribbers have acquiesced.....as evidenced by the eerie silence and lack of critically convincing responses to certain bombastic pre-trib supporting posts.

You just know this had to be the outcome.....

It is predictable.

They sputter out badly at our verses.

Their next step is pull out their dead men and extra biblical nothing burgers.

Then a further round of making them go against the bible.

Then comes the policeman dynamic....ignoring their collegues foul mess and accusing us as attackers.


The whole thing is no contest at all

 

[Absolutely]

I mean just once can they genuinely engage and present their superior doctrine??????

It is boring taking them to the wood shed every single time

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You cannot understand accurately what was prophesied in OT if it is not clarified in NT.

In view of what DavidTree has put here ^ , I strongly recommend the readers of this thread to view the first 4:07-mins of this short 17-18 min video (and compare this with what DT is saying there ^ ):

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube - "Spiritualization"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The topic here though the wrath, tribulation, the second coming, and etc they were first introduced in the old and the old even speaks more on the subject.

So if we are truly seeking truth which the word says thy word is truth, so why would we not take it all to find the truth since old and new it is all God breathed.

Agree with your entire post.

 

[Rondonmon]

This subject is going to be debated until it actually happens. And you're not going to change many people's minds with all this vain argumentation. Here's my take:

Pray for pre
Prepare for post

No, we are given the Holy Spirit that leads us unto ALL TRUTH, we don't have to wait to know the truth my friend, that's a Satan "White lie", just like the "Thou Shalt Not Surely Die" white lie. Facts are facts, all it does for me is show me peoples judgment I know I can not trust on almost anything to do with the bible, maybe on simple things, but not on complex issues, they are like the seed cast onto rocky ground, their roots do need take in full. They are easily taken down the wrong path. Adam ceded his Dominion unto Satan by way of disobedience. Satan is a tricky manipulator.

 

[DavidTree]

No, we are given the Holy Spirit that leads us unto ALL TRUTH, we don't have to wait to know the truth my friend, that's a Satan "White lie", just like the "Thou Shalt Not Surely Die" white lie. Facts are facts, all it does for me is show me peoples judgment I know I can not trust on almost anything to do with the bible, maybe on simple things, but not on complex issues, they are like the seed cast onto rocky ground, their roots do need take in full. They are easily taken down the wrong path. Adam ceded his Dominion unto Satan by way of disobedience. Satan is a tricky manipulator.

Acts 1
So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority

Would you trust someone who thinks they know what Jesus said is not for them to know???

 

[Runningman]

"...saith unto the churchES" (said 7x in "the things WHICH ARE" section, chpts 2-3).



The thing is, saying "churchES" is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY";


--in the "churchES" there are both true believers AND those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. not actually "saved" persons / believers / saints)

--whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up ONLY OF believers (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")

So you're saying the book of Revelation applies only to the 7 churches mentioned on chapters 2 and 3? Those churches aren't standing anymore.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] it says the dead in Christ will rise first, "and those of us who are still alive"--will be caught up together with Him in the air.

Just to note: the word "rise" and the word "caught up" are referencing two distinct things: one refers to the dead in Christ being "resurrected" from the dead / from their graves... the other refers to the "SNATCH-action" that relocates both components of the "One Body" (both the "dead IN Christ" who are now "resurrected" from the dead, bodily, AND the "we which are alive" component)

Note that the dead are RISING--they are NOT coming down from heaven--"No one has ascended to heaven, but the Son."

So, Jn3:13 no one "has ascended" ("perfect indicative active")... are you suggesting that no one ever will, even though Rev11:12 says of the "2W" (after being told "COME UP [G305] HERE")... "and they ascended/went up [G305] into heaven" ? Or are you among those saying then that the "2W" cannot be humans?

 

[Rondonmon]

Acts 1
So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority

Would you trust someone who thinks they know what Jesus said is not for them to know???

That is a little more nuanced than most people understand, the truth is the Season couldn't be understood by those who asked the question, but as we see in Daniel 12, during the very end times, we can then understand the Seasons and Times we are in very clearly, because everything revolves around Israel being born again via their "Dead Men's Bones" being breathed unto life again by God. Thus we can now understand THE SEASON because God has given us these end-time answers via His Holy Spirit at his choosing, not ours. So, just because Jesus told THS PEOPLE that, e was not speaking unto us the same thing, as a matter of fact, we are too in Daniel 12 that those living at the very end, who are of God, will understand. Here are two very important verses in Dan. 12 that show this:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

So, we will understand because we are given WISDOM by the Holy Spirit because in these end times God pours out His Holy Spirit on us. So, I understand your point my friend, but we must remember, God has a TIME FOR EVERYTHING, so not everything He says is for ALL TIME, God is nuanced in His reasonings.

 

[DavidTree]

In view of what DavidTree has put here ^ , I strongly recommend the readers of this thread to view the first 4:07-mins of this short 17-18 min video (and compare this with what DT is saying there ^ ):

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube - "Spiritualization"

TRUST the Word of God and not the words of religious 'learned' men.

I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit. 2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise!a Amen.

God’s Sovereign Choice
(Genesis 25:19–28; Malachi 1:1–5)

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.

READ all of God's words about the Two Israels and the Two Jerusalems.

Will God restore the Jews unto Salvation = YES = Matthew 23


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’i”

READ Romans chapters 9 - 11

 

[DavidTree]

That is a little more nuanced than most people understand, the truth is the Season couldn't be understood by those who asked the question, but as we see in Daniel 12, during the very end times, we can then understand the Seasons and Times we are in very clearly, because everything revolves around Israel being born again via their "Dead Men's Bones" being breathed unto life again by God. Thus we can now understand THE SEASON because God has given us these end-time answers via His Holy Spirit at his choosing, not ours. So, just because Jesus told THS PEOPLE that, e was not speaking unto us the same thing, as a matter of fact, we are too in Daniel 12 that those living at the very end, who are of God, will understand. Here are two very important verses in Dan. 12 that show this:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

So, we will understand because we are given WISDOM by the Holy Spirit because in these end times God pours out His Holy Spirit on us. So, I understand your point my friend, but we must remember, God has a TIME FOR EVERYTHING, so not everything He says is for ALL TIME, God is nuanced in His reasonings.

YES, i agree with all Scripture that informs us to observe and see.

The LORD was being very specific = "It is not for you(or us) to know what he Father has hidden from us including His Son.

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

The LORD's Coming pertains to the Resurrection of His Saints and other things including the restoration of the Jews.

Only the Father knows.............

We know what the Word declares = Matthew 24, Thess I & II, 1 John 2:18, James ch 5, Daniel 7, Revelation

The sin of pride always tempting man to predict or twist scripture for doctrines of error such as 'pre-trib' rapture, which cannot be found anywhere in Scripture - UNLESS - someone twists and turns, "adds to or takes away fro God's words".

Deut 4:1-2 Proverbs 3:5-6 Revelation 22:18-19