How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Laura798]

The Bible reveals a Pre-Tribulation Rapture ever since Enoch was translated before the Flood. The only false doctrine is (a) claiming that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture and (b) making Christ a liar.

Nehemiah 6, in that chapter after listing those of the faith (Enoch in the list of those of faith in Hebrews 11:5) says:

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."--1 Corinthians 16:19

I can see how people misunderstand this Scripture, but Scripture never contradicts itself. Again, we must look at the surrounding verses and the whole of scripture. Jesus said plainly, "--John 3:13

how he was 'translated' i don't know, but it says clearly he died in Hebrews. i can only assume it means just as God gives the breath of life, God took it away, so he did not die a natural death. I don't see this happening to anyone else in Scripture. People will say Elijah, but several years later he is alive because he writes a letter to King Jehoram--so the Chariots did not take him to heaven. The heaven must have meant the upper atmosphere in this case.
"
"A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah warning the king of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
This letter proves that the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years—as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates."

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-bible-really-teach/did-elijah-go-to-heaven

 

[Nehemiah6]

Once again, the only neat and Biblical way to tie together eschatology is with a post-trib rapture.

Really? So let's take a good hard look at this nonsensical teaching. The absurd theory of a Post-Tribulation Rapture postulates that the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church takes places AFTER the Great Tribulation, and that the Church actually goes through both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (even though the Church is not mentioned once as being on earth from Revelation 4 through 18, and even though the wrath of God is only reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked).

The Bible reveals that (1) the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven precedes the Second Coming of Christ which automatically excludes the saints from earth at that time, (2) the Great Tribulation and the cataclysmic cosmic events precede the Second Coming of Christ and all of this is an expression of the wrath of God, and (3) the battle of Armageddon takes place immediately after the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels coming to execute judgment on earth.

So in order for the Post-Tribulation nonsense to be true, one would have to believe that three things are happening simultaneously: (1) the saints who have passed on are being resurrected while Christ descends to earth to destroy His enemies, (2) all the living saints have somehow lived through the Great Tribulation (which was not meant for them to begin with) (3) all the living saints have escaped the beheadings of the Antichrist and are ready to be raptured, and (4) all this is happening while there is wholesale slaughter of the enemies of Christ and Israel at Armageddon outside Jerusalem.

CAN YOU IMAGINE THE ABSOLUTE ABSURDITY OF THIS SCENARIO? Salvation and damnation all happening at one and the same time? Massive confusion on earth. A river of blood flowing on earth while the saints are being resurrected and raptured. And who are the saints who come with Christ from Heaven with all His Holy Angels if the Church was stuck on earth?

The real issue which people should address is what is it that makes some Christians choose absurdity over reality and confusion over clarity? It would seem that there has been a lot of indoctrination in some churches along with a lot of anti-Pre-Tribulation propaganda.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 ' s Post #2036...

All I'm saying is that, to say "[unto] the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"



There are ppl "in the churchES" who are not actually "saved" persons... though they come in His name... (but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ);




...do you not think that the ones being referenced in the following verse were (at some point and for at least some spans of time) a part of one or other of the local churchES?? :

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." - 1 John 2:19



[I'm not among those who believe one can "lose" or "forfeit" salvation]

That verse DW, has no bearing to the other scriptures and is completely out of context in this case.

 

[Laura798]

The Bible reveals a Pre-Tribulation Rapture ever since Enoch was translated before the Flood. The only false doctrine is (a) claiming that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture and (b) making Christ a liar.[/QUOTE

The Bible reveals a Pre-Tribulation Rapture ever since Enoch was translated before the Flood. The only false doctrine is (a) claiming that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture and (b) making Christ a liar.

Nehemiah 6, in that chapter after listing those of the faith (Enoch in the list of those of faith in Hebrews 11:5) says:

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."--Hebrews 11:13

I can see how people misunderstand this scripture, but scripture never contradicts itself. Again, we must look at the surrounding verses and the whole of scripture. Jesus said plainly, " No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."--John 3:13

how he was 'translated' i don't know, but it says clearly he died in Hebrews. i can only assume it means just as God gives the breath of life, God took it away, so he did not die a natural death. I don't see this happening to anyone else in Scripture. People will say Elijah, but several years later he is alive because he writes a letter to King Jehoram--so the Chariots did not take him to heaven. The heaven must have meant the upper atmosphere in this case.
"
"A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah warning the king of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
This letter proves that the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years—as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates."

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-bible-really-teach/did-elijah-go-to-heaven

 

[Laura798]

Nehemiah 6, in that chapter after listing those of the faith (Enoch in the list of those of faith in Hebrews 11:5) says:

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."--1 Corinthians 16:19

I can see how people misunderstand this Scripture, but Scripture never contradicts itself. Again, we must look at the surrounding verses and the whole of scripture. Jesus said plainly, "--John 3:13

how he was 'translated' i don't know, but it says clearly he died in Hebrews. i can only assume it means just as God gives the breath of life, God took it away, so he did not die a natural death. I don't see this happening to anyone else in Scripture. People will say Elijah, but several years later he is alive because he writes a letter to King Jehoram--so the Chariots did not take him to heaven. The heaven must have meant the upper atmosphere in this case.
"
"A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah warning the king of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
This letter proves that the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years—as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates."

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-bible-really-teach/did-elijah-go-to-heaven

Correction, not 1 Corinthians 16. It is Hebrews 11:13

 

[DavidTree]

Your explanations aren't necessary--it makes what is clear confusing. Again, let the text stand on it's own--there is no mystery here--this is not prophecy with some hidden meaning. It's as clear as "See Spot run."

i am busting a gut in laughter from this - thank you - i agree - no secret magic tricks to reveal what the Apostle Paul said

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... except the way that Laura798 "explained" it was inaccurate (re: the 1Th4 TEXT).

 

[Laura798]

Really? So let's take a good hard look at this nonsensical teaching. The absurd theory of a Post-Tribulation Rapture postulates that the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church takes places AFTER the Great Tribulation, and that the Church actually goes through both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (even though the Church is not mentioned once as being on earth from Revelation 4 through 18, and even though the wrath of God is only reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked).

The Bible reveals that (1) the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven precedes the Second Coming of Christ which automatically excludes the saints from earth at that time, (2) the Great Tribulation and the cataclysmic cosmic events precede the Second Coming of Christ and all of this is an expression of the wrath of God, and (3) the battle of Armageddon takes place immediately after the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels coming to execute judgment on earth.

So in order for the Post-Tribulation nonsense to be true, one would have to believe that three things are happening simultaneously: (1) the saints who have passed on are being resurrected while Christ descends to earth to destroy His enemies, (2) all the living saints have somehow lived through the Great Tribulation (which was not meant for them to begin with) (3) all the living saints have escaped the beheadings of the Antichrist and are ready to be raptured, and (4) all this is happening while there is wholesale slaughter of the enemies of Christ and Israel at Armageddon outside Jerusalem.

CAN YOU IMAGINE THE ABSOLUTE ABSURDITY OF THIS SCENARIO? Salvation and damnation all happening at one and the same time? Massive confusion on earth. A river of blood flowing on earth while the saints are being resurrected and raptured. And who are the saints who come with Christ from Heaven with all His Holy Angels if the Church was stuck on earth?

The real issue which people should address is what is it that makes some Christians choose absurdity over reality and confusion over clarity? It would seem that there has been a lot of indoctrination in some churches along with a lot of anti-Pre-Tribulation propaganda.

I'll answer this with scripture:

Jesus speaking to the disciples:
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Again the Great Tribulation is the trouble coming on the earth before Christ's return. God's WRATH is the destruction and judgment of the wicked at which time the present heavens and earth are destroyed.

 

[cv5]

The book even closes with......
22:16 “ I, Jesus have sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the churches.

It's all written to the church for the church. It makes no sense if the church are not going to be
there to witness those things he tells us about.

<<<It's ALL written to the church for the church>>>

Oh I think you definitely need to broaden that self-imposed constraint.

There is no doubt that Revelation is written for OTHER servants as well. Those servants who are YET TO BE elect for duty DURING the 70th. Week. Like for example the 144,000 Israelites....and undoubtedly tribulation saints as well (they have a testimony) to bolster their faith and resolve. In fact I am convinced that this is exactly what this verse intends to convey....

Rev 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

 

[Laura798]

I'll answer this with scripture:

Jesus speaking to the disciples:
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Again the Great Tribulation is the trouble coming on the earth before Christ's return. God's WRATH is the destruction and judgment of the wicked at which time the present heavens and earth are destroyed.

Note too, only pre-tribbers could be deceived by a false messiah since they believe he will somehow come 'secretly'--again if we look at the whole of scripture it is NOT talking about 'secretly' it is talking about SUDDENLY and UNEXPECTEDLY.

 

[Nehemiah6]

how he was 'translated' i don't know, but it says clearly he died in Hebrews.

No. It says nothing of the sort "clearly". What it says regarding all the others in Hebrews 11 is that they all died. But Enoch is the exception and that is made crystal clear in verse 5. "That he should not see death" means exactly what it says.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch was raptured to Heaven by God before the Flood, and the Church will be raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation and Great Tribulation. Just as the Flood was for divine judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly. the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals will be for the same purpose. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and cannot be subject to God's wrath.

 

[Laura798]

<<<It's ALL written to the church for the church>>>

Oh I think you definitely need to broaden that self-imposed constraint.

There is no doubt that Revelation is written for OTHER servants as well. Those servants who are YET TO BE elect for duty DURING the 70th. Week. Like for example the 144,000 Israelites....and undoubtedly tribulation saints as well (they have a testimony) to bolster their faith and resolve. In fact I am convinced that this is exactly what this verse intends to convey....

Rev 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

144,000 Israelites? Pray tell where is THAT in scripture?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'll answer this with scripture:

All you have done is to confirm what I have said. The Post-Tribulation Rapture is pure BALONEY.

 

[Laura798]

No. It says nothing of the sort "clearly". What it says regarding all the others in Hebrews 11 is that they all died. But Enoch is the exception and that is made crystal clear in verse 5. "That he should not see death" means exactly what it says.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch was raptured to Heaven by God before the Flood, and the Church will be raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation and Great Tribulation. Just as the Flood was for divine judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly. the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals will be for the same purpose. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and cannot be subject to God's wrath.

It says they ALL DIED. Again Jesus said "NO ONE HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN, EXCEPT THE SON OF MAN. " NO ONE MEANS NO ONE.

 

[Laura798]

All you have done is to confirm what I have said. The Post-Tribulation Rapture is pure BALONEY.

A very thoughtful and intelligent.. and Christlke response. Baloney? (what is exactly is the 'baloney' bit btw?--the bible verses I shared?) I'm wondering if you would actually say that aloud in a bible study.

 

[DavidTree]

The Bible reveals a Pre-Tribulation Rapture ever since Enoch was translated before the Flood. The only false doctrine is (a) claiming that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture and (b) making Christ a liar.

Brother Nehemiah, i do not want to be guilty of calling my Lord and Savior a "liar" - can you please direct me to the scripture where our Lord Jesus Christ said: 'His Saints will be pre-trib raptured".

Peace and Blessing to you - thank you

 

[Runningman]

How do you figure??

Nope... I've continually stated that the phrase (7 TIMES repeated in chpts 2-3 [one per each of the letters to them]) says, "...what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES"


[IOW, each letter (of the 7) was intended for more than just that one location, see]






Again, how do you figure??

In your previous post you said that Revelation 22:16 only applies to the 7 churches mentioned in chapters 2 and 3 and not the whole body of Christ.

Those 7 churches aren't standing anymore.

Given Revelation 22:6

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

This would mean you're saying that the contents of Revelation have already been done for those 7 churches and that Revelation does not apply to the world church known as the body of Christ.

I am saying that all Revelation has not yet happened.

 

[walknlight]

Hi!!

could be deceived by a false messiah

This is why Harpazo/ snatched / caught up....He (The Christ) calls those who are His to Him,up to Him in the air....
Those who are His have no choice in the matter.......like it or not.....
--------
And I will ask you.....
Do you believe The Father would let His Son's body go thorough a
"Great Tribulation", again ?

God Bless!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 's Post #2041 (bottom half of your post... about "Elijah's letter"):

See my [old] Post #139 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...eheaded-by-the-antichrist.195887/post-4447020



-- "There came a writing from Elijah the prophet"


[note what it does NOT say... but what some want to MAKE IT say ]



The text in 2 Chron 21 does NOT say, "so Elijah [then (in the 5-6-yrs-later setting)] sat down and composed a letter to be sent to them...". No.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 's Post #2041 (bottom half of your post... about "Elijah's letter"):

See my [old] Post #139 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...eheaded-by-the-antichrist.195887/post-4447020



-- "There came a writing from Elijah the prophet"


[note what it does NOT say... but what some want to MAKE IT say ]



The text in 2 Chron 21 does NOT say, "so Elijah [then (in the 5-6-yrs-later setting)] sat down and composed a letter to be sent to them...". No.

DW---you seem to have a great need to be right---even at the risk of making no sense whatsoever. CLEARLY based on Scripture, he wrote the letter years later!

2Chr. 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also.
2Chr. 21:12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, “Thus says the Lord God of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah,
2Chr. 21:13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you,
2Chr. 21:14 behold, the Lord is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity;
Notice that Elijah sent a letter to Jehoram, who is the son of Jehoshaphat of Judah. If Elijah sent a letter to Jehoshaphat’s successor, Jehoram, then it appears Elijah was alive even after Jehoshaphat’s reign, which contradicts the conclusion that Elijah was removed before Jehoshaphat’s rule.