Pastors, Please Quit Doing This

[kaylagrl]

Not to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you are taking the "us against them" approach that some pastors take toward the peasants sitting in the pews.

Mmm more judging than putting words in my mouth. (shrug) There are two sides to every coin, I'm giving that other side. Unexpected?

What difference does it make? Both the Christian and non-Christian need a leader who they can count on during spiritual hard times. And neither are getting that now, in most instances.

Ok but you're painting every pastor and church the same way. If you're a mature Christian you should be the one people are coming to during spiritual hard times. Sorry, I see too many babies in the church that are happy with milk. Jesus commanded us to go and spread the Gospel. That's the mission. No one should need to light a fire under you. The preacher shares the Word, then we go share it with others.

You are right, especially since it never, ever, ever, works. So, I say again, Pastors, please stop doing it. Because it is having a negative effect.

No, I mean you have the Word, your preacher expounds on the Word, adult Sunday School is where you discuss the Word. What more equipping do you need? The pastor can't be there to spoon feed everyone. At some point you're mature enough to be part of the mission, reaching the lost. There is no reason you as a Christian should be on the couch. You have your mission, you're equipped, all that is left is to go.

 

[Edify]

The problem brother, is not everyone is as mature in their walk as you may be. The Bible tells us not to do anything that would cause a brother to stumble.

IDK what was intended here, but no harm, no foul.
It's never been about me & my "maturity". I'm about being honest & truthful in what I do. No amount of negativity will change that. So you can believe what you want or pray & ask The Lord about it. I've nothing to lose either way.

 

[kaylagrl]

IDK what was intended here, but no harm, no foul.
It's never been about me & my "maturity". I'm about being honest & truthful in what I do. No amount of negativity will change that. So you can believe what you want or pray & ask The Lord about it. I've nothing to lose either way.

No, I was speaking of new Christians that may be weak when it comes to alcohol. I don't drink, I personally don't think it's a good witness, but I leave that between that person and the Lord. Just the way I feel personally.

 

[Edify]

No, I was speaking of new Christians that may be weak when it comes to alcohol. I don't drink, I personally don't think it's a good witness, but I leave that between that person and the Lord. Just the way I feel personally.

When he joked about not offering me tequila, I assumed he & you were on the same page.

 

[kaylagrl]

When he joked about not offering me tequila, I assumed he & you were on the same page.

Not on that subject, no we aren't.

 

[Edify]

Not on that subject, no we aren't.

My apologies then.

 

[Aaron56]

This seems appropriate here.

The writer of Hebrews wrote, in chapter 10:

“..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

In days past and especially recently (because of COVID) I have seen this scripture used to prove that we have “a mandate from God to meet on Sundays” or any other day. That group claims that “NOT meeting” would be tantamount to disobeying God. “We will fear God and not man!” they conclude, and then point to this verse as their proof text.

I will quickly examine this verse to show what it really means.

When we read the Bible, it is important to note the irregular phrases and words that are not typical in our vernacular. For example, often repeated words or words that seem out of order or phrases that seem odd should give us a clue that there is an a-typical expression or at least one that may not be familiar to us. Things that seem contradictory (“God so loved the world…” and “Love not the world”) should be examined more closely so that the meaning of the scripture can be discerned from context, understanding, and/or revelation.
This verse is one of those verses.

“..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

It starts out just fine “..not forsaking” so we’re cued in on something we are not to forsake, but then it quickly becomes odd to our vernacular “..the assembling of ourselves together..”. Some may think, “Well, this is just a hold over from King James English, so it seems long and drawn out. It simply means we should meet together regularly.” And then we see that this exhortation is set against "the Day". We must know what that means, too.

In the Greek, the word for ‘assembling’ and ‘together’ is the same word: episynagōgē. To write is out, it would read “the episynagōgē (of ourselves) episynagōgē”. That’s a little odd, right?

If this verse was just about meeting together, the word synagō might have been used to signify getting everyone together in one place.
But this is the gathering of ourselves together. This signifies the assembling of parts of a whole, the Body coming together as one. This is not “one according to location”, but one according to function.

We can find further clarification in Ephesians 4:
“..speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

Simply meeting together for a gathering does not fulfill the exhortation in Hebrews chapter 10. We are not to resist the gathering of ourselves together with others, to form the body of Christ wherein each person does his/her part to the building up of the whole body.

It is the difference between a bag of car parts vs. a fully functioning vehicle.

The same word, episynagōgē, is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our [episunagógé] gathering together to Him, we ask you not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..."

The Day, then, is the Day of the Lord, not Sunday or Saturday. It is the gathering together of the corporate man as the Day of the Lord's return draws near.

The episynagōgē of the Body is a work of the Spirit that we are not to resist, He is the one who determines our place and function in the Body of Christ.

Blessings,
Aaron56

 

[SteveEpperson]

That pastor just needs to hook up with Missionary Athletes International

I took a look online. Looks like an amazing organization. Do you belong to it in some way?

 

[SteveEpperson]

Ok, but as the spiritual leader of your home, you ought to be in church. Especially if there are children involved.

We are the church since we have the Holy Spirit living in us. No fancy building is needed.

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. 1 Cor. 3:16-17

I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree. We've had our churches closed because of the pandemic. We have a lot of issues going on in this country, I don't know where you are, and the very last thing we need is the house of God closed. People are committing suicide at an alarming rate. People need the church to be open.

I think what you are saying here is that the church cannot be open if the pastor is out. However, I think you underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit working in His people. We can survive without preaching; we can't survive without God.

I'm sorry, but that's your job to go and win people in. Once they are there, the pastor preaches the Word. Once you go outside the church doors, that's YOUR mission field. Jesus commanded us to go and spread the Gospel.

Monkey see monkey do. If the big monkey is going to come out of his cave for only one hour a week to babble at the little monkeys, then go back into hiding until the next week, what do you think the little monkeys are going to do?

Don't tell me to do what you are unwilling to do yourself.

Once they are there, the pastor preaches the Word

Jesus preached, also. However, in the three years of his ministry, he only delivered five major sermons to the multitudes. The rest of the time, he did this:

• Healed the sick
• Drove out demons
• Fed the poor and hungry
• Performed miracles
• Confronted the Pharisees in person
• Spread the Good News from place to place

He also taught his disciples in person how to be like Him without the help of:

• A website
• Contact forms
• Office staff
• Large building
• Lighted stage
• Phony prayer request forms used as gatekeepers to keep people away from the pastor

hundreds of churches and one of the saddest things to see was churches full of women

I sense a bit of exaggeration here. I have been to a lot of churches, also. I see a mixture of men and women.

However, you bring up a good point. Single men are the ones who don't go. The reason is, they feel like mere anomalies. After all, how dare they show up to church without a well-manicured woman by their side. There must be something wrong with him. He must have done something to chase his wife away.

I've been on both sides. No one wants to associate with the single man in the church. But once you show up with a wife and kids, you must be okay.

I'm sorry, but it's as simple as this, spread the Good News. You're armed with your Bible and the Holy Spirit. The pastor shouldn't have to spoon feed you.

That's a bit insensitive, don't you think? So what you are saying is that I don't really need a pastor. And I agree with you. I made up my mind several years ago that pastors preach sermons. That's it.

And since there are tens of thousands of sermons online, why would I need to "go to church" and waste my time driving there. I'm not the only one who feels this way. People are leaving churches in droves. And many of them are doers, the 20 percent that actually keeps the local church running.

No, not necessarily. I left a church that decided they couldn't even get their own men to attend church so they bought a big screen tv. smh Even that didn't work.

Well, of course, it didn't work. People are not looking to be entertained. They are looking for spiritual guidance. And listening to a one-hour sermon each week is not going to provide it.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Kind of hard to have sympathy for people with that attitude.

How about showing a little grace and mercy toward them instead.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I'm headed to the doctor with my mother who is going in for testing. Since she has gotten over her cancer she hasn't been able to walk.

I will pray for you both during this trying time. I hope God will comfort you also.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Yes, but there are a lot of sincere people in ministry too.

I agree.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.... You don't go to church at all?

You may be surprised at who doesn't and the numbers are becoming greater by the week.

 

[GaryA]

It starts out just fine “..not forsaking” so we’re cued in on something we are not to forsake, but then it quickly becomes odd to our vernacular “..the assembling of ourselves together..”. Some may think, “Well, this is just a hold over from King James English, so it seems long and drawn out. It simply means we should meet together regularly.”

In the Greek, the word for ‘assembling’ and ‘together’ is the same word: episynagōgē. To write is out, it would read “the episynagōgē (of ourselves) episynagōgē”. That’s a little odd, right?

A little too odd...

Your "translation reversal" is in error.

The word is not in there twice.

To write it out - from Greek to English - it would read:

Not forsaking the assembling-together [of] ourselves.

If this verse was just about meeting together, the word synagō might have been used to signify getting everyone together in one place.
But this is the gathering of ourselves together. This signifies the assembling of parts of a whole, the Body coming together as one. This is not “one according to location”, but one according to function.

The greek word used in the verse does in fact mean "gathering together [in one place]" - the 'epi' part of it gives it the 'location' aspect of it - the difference being "to assemble" versus "in assembly"...

The same word, episynagōgē, is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our [episunagógé] gathering together to Him, ..."

Same thing here - a gathering together in one place...

The Day, then, is the Day of the Lord, ...

This is correct.

What is not actually in the verse is the idea represented in the bolded part of your quote above by the word 'regularly'.

The point being - when people abuse this verse and say:

"If you are not [at church] every time the doors are open, you have [automatically] sinned against God ("by definition") and blah blah blah..."

- they have left the context of the verse in a masterful stroke of legalism that only serves to exacerbate the situation.

The truth is - if what is in your heart and mind is what it should be - you will want to be assembled with your brothers and sisters in Christ (a church family if possible) as much as absolutely possible (not just one day a week for an hour or so) - especially in view of the times we are in...

Like the verse says:

"... and so much more, as ye see the day approaching."

 

[SteveEpperson]

That's right, tell all the watchmen to quit sounding the ala


rm. We don't want those watchmen meddling in our business when I sit home on Sunday to invite my worldly friends to come over for some beer & snacks & watch the game.
Stop bothering me with my sin. Quit warning me about the consequences. Let me get hard-hearted & fall away from God.
Just say what you mean, & mean what you say. "Stop preaching at me, I'm tired of hearing it."

If you have it that bad, go to your pastor & tell him. Quit trying to convince us with your excuses.

Okay, so a few things to unpack here. I often get misquoted, that's because I am still an amateur writer pretending to be a professional. Sorry.

That's right, tell all the watchmen to quit sounding the alarm.

This is a thin argument, in my opinion. If by the watchmen you mean pastors, then you are right. I believe they should go silent for a while (maybe six months) and demonstrate that they can speak with their actions. In the meantime, I will be sure and read the five sermons Jesus delivered in the New Testament. Deal?

We don't want those watchmen meddling in our business when I sit home on Sunday to invite my worldly friends to come over for some beer & snacks & watch the game.
Stop bothering me with my sin. Quit warning me about the consequences. Let me get hard-hearted & fall away from God.
Just say what you mean, & mean what you say. "Stop preaching at me, I'm tired of hearing it."

If you have it that bad, go to your pastor & tell him. Quit trying to convince us with your excuses.

I believe your sarcasm is misplaced. I think it is time for the pastors to get out into the communities where the congregants live. I want to be bothered about my sin. I would love to confess them to a live person, especially to a pastor.

Five years ago, when my wife left, I would sometimes look out the window hoping someone from the church, anybody, would pull up to my driveway.

I often envisioned the pastor coming by just to say hi and ask me why I hadn't been to church for so long. Or maybe even a 30-second phone call. But nothing.

So, I asked the Father to disciple me directly in the name of Jesus under the direction of the Holy Spirit. And he said yes.

From that moment on, I was no longer completely alone to fend for myself on a spiritual battlefield. If the so-called church was going to abandon me, that was okay. I still am, and always will be, a disciple of Christ.

I still listen to radio preachers and watch them on YouTube. What I was alluding to here was the fact that we hear too many sermons complaining about men in the church, not the unsaved. I believe if we all just stop talking for a while and simply be with each other, we will have a revival like no other in Christ's Church.

 

[SteveEpperson]

personally i don't think a church should be singing the praises of anyone but our Lord

Okay, so since you wish to play a game of semantics, let me rephrase.

Fathers and mothers who stay together should be complimented for not giving in to the worldview that it's okay to split up.

Or, do you not have the heart to be nice to someone, even for a few seconds?

 

[rayzor]

personally i don't think a church should be singing the praises of anyone but our Lord

It might be ok,,,,mostly those songs are song in personal pronouns such [as i believe in Jesus.]
If one give thanks,,, only in the name of a disciple, amen I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

 

[kaylagrl]

How about showing a little grace and mercy toward them instead.

I think I was talking here about people who didn't show up to church even when we had traveled miles to go to minister to them. So just try the other side of the fence for a second. You're the pastor of a church. You've advertised to your congregation that you are going to have a special group in. You ask them to bring their unsaved loved ones, maybe even put it in the newspaper a couple weeks. People say they will show up, seem excited about it. Then the big day comes. The group has traveled a couple hrs. maybe several to come to your church, they're faithful, they show up. And when you walk into the church you find that you're congregation stayed home, your group has no one to minister to. How about a little grace and mercy in that situation?

Let me give you an example. We had a pastor friend who asked us to come to his church in GA. That was a considerable distance from where we lived. So he told his congregation, he advertised it in his city for several weeks. This was a "come home" event on top of that. So those that had moved away were coming home to visit. So So the women of the church prepared a meal for after the service. Everything was ready. We showed up on Sunday morning and there was hardly a person in the church, and it was a sizable church, well attended . Our pastor friend was upset and embarrassed, he couldn't understand why no one was there. When the service was done and we went to eat the meal the people began to come. I think almost every family in the city showed up, for the free
food. His congregation showed up, ate the free food, and left the ladies to clean up. Needless to say he had a come to Jesus moment with his congregation the following Sunday. Where was the grace of the people there?!

Another example... I was ministering in a church on New Years eve one year. Again they were having food and it seemed to be the focus of the night. Every minute someone was jumping up and headed to check on the food. It was a family ministry so I wasn't the only one on stage. People were talking among themselves as we were trying to minister. After a while it became rude. I stepped to the microphone and spoke, which I seldom did. And I said there were plenty of parties all over the city, there were other places we could be, but if we come to church and we aren't changed, what's the point in opening the doors? Had it been up to me, I would have closed the service. Instead they took a break for a hymn. As I headed toward the back my mother grabbed my arm and said "you have to come now!" I couldn't guess what was so urgent. So I followed her and she told me a woman wanted to speak to me. I saw a woman who had clearly been crying surrounded by the women in the church. The food was forgotten. She told me that her husband had told her Christmas day that he didn't love her, he had a girlfriend and he was moving her into their home. She had children, she had never been anything but a stay at home mom. She thanked me for what I had said, it broke the service wide open as the women surrounded her in prayer. There was grace there that night for that poor woman.

One last example. My father has always been in ministry as long as I have been alive. He's an outspoken person and he's always inviting people to church. He invited a friend from work. The friend said one day he'd come but my father never stopped talking to him about the Lord. One night at around 3 in the morning this man called my father. He said he was sitting with his gun in his hand ready to take his life. His wife was leaving him. He said he was about to pull the trigger when he thought of my father and what he had said. My father jumped out of bed and went to this mans house. He talked to him and his wife. They came to church and were both saved. That's not saying they couldn't have gotten saved somewhere else, but the church was there in all these situations. I could tell so many of these stories, I could write a book. I'm just saying, put yourself on the other side of the fence and have a little grace and mercy.

 

[Lanolin]

I wonder how many churches actually have comfy couches and offer people who cant get there free transport there and back.

the thing is, if a big football game is televised at the same time as a church service then what do you do. You can hold a service another day or talk to the tv network and say hey, stop broadcasting games. Or, the football mad people would just be watching it on their little pocket smartphones at church while pretending to be listening to a sermon?

I dont know how the players themselves get to church, maybe they go AFTER the game?

 

[kaylagrl]

We are the church since we have the Holy Spirit living in us. No fancy building is needed.

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. 1 Cor. 3:16-17

Never disagreed with that. But if you want to cut loose after work, play some pool, you go to a bar. That's where you feel comfortable, that's where your friends are. Or maybe it's sports, so you hang out at Applebee's to watch the game and eat with your pals and maybe your wives come along. Maybe you and your friends hang out at the movies. Church is where your friends are, they believe the way you do. You go there for the fellowship, to hear the Word, and hopefully bring someone unsaved so they can hear the Word. It's not the only place God is, but it's one of the places where His Word is being shared. Sunday school is especially important. So many children have brought parents that have been saved. I don't understand why anyone would be against the church. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I think what you are saying here is that the church cannot be open if the pastor is out. However, I think you underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit working in His people. We can survive without preaching; we can't survive without God.

No actually I made that plain in another post but couldn't tell you which one. No, we can't survive without God, but preaching is a means of sharing the Word of God, hand in glove.

I Monkey see monkey do. If the big monkey is going to come out of his cave for only one hour a week to babble at the little monkeys, then go back into hiding until the next week, what do you think the little monkeys are going to do?

Don't tell me to do what you are unwilling to do yourself.

Ok, well that's not the church I attend. That's not my pastor. This may be your experience and I can't argue or discuss because maybe it is your situation. But the issue is people come here and they have had one, or several bad church experiences, or bad pastors and then they tar everyone in ministry with the same brush. And it's not right. I have been in more churches, known more pastor and wives then most will ever meet. And these pastors are sincere. Are there bad pastors? You bet, but please don't act like they are the majority.

Jesus preached, also. However, in the three years of his ministry, he only delivered five major sermons to the multitudes. The rest of the time, he did this:

• Healed the sick
• Drove out demons
• Fed the poor and hungry
• Performed miracles
• Confronted the Pharisees in person
• Spread the Good News from place to place

Wow, brother, you're talking like a Pentecostal!! lol I can tell you there are people here on CC that will argue that healing isn't for today, neither is driving out demons, certainly not miracles. In fact if you do believe any of this is for today, you and I are in a minority I fear, in or outside of the church.

He also taught his disciples in person how to be like Him without the help of:

• A website
• Contact forms
• Office staff
• Large building
• Lighted stage
• Phony prayer request forms used as gatekeepers to keep people away from the pastor

Mmm humm, true, but He also didn't have to compete with T.V, movies, sports, Super Bowl, World Series etc. I went to one church to minister and was told he wasn't going to be there because his kid was in the hockey league and it was their final game. Keith Green said it best in a song where a line goes "you love the world, and you're avoiding me".

I sense a bit of exaggeration here. I have been to a lot of churches, also. I see a mixture of men and women.

However, you bring up a good point. Single men are the ones who don't go. The reason is, they feel like mere anomalies. After all, how dare they show up to church without a well-manicured woman by their side. There must be something wrong with him. He must have done something to chase his wife away.

I've been on both sides. No one wants to associate with the single man in the church. But once you show up with a wife and kids, you must be okay.

I've also been on both sides. I married in my 40s. I spent 20 yrs in ministry, I was single the entire time. I didn't even date. Again, you're speaking of your experience, and that's fine, but you're making it seem like this is the majority experience.

That's a bit insensitive, don't you think? So what you are saying is that I don't really need a pastor. And I agree with you. I made up my mind several years ago that pastors preach sermons. That's it.

No, no it's not insensitive. I'm talking about a mature Christian here, that's who I assumed we were talking about. Yes, we need pastors, but mature Christians shouldn't be sitting at home watching football while the pastor is trying to prime the flock to go out and reach the world. You've made up your mind based on your experience, and you're entitled to your opinion. But I've been in ministry, I've been to hundreds of churches, I know many, many pastors, I have pastors in my family. And when people come on and paint everyone with one brush and judge their hearts, I'm going to say that is utterly unfair and judgmental.

Well, of course, it didn't work. People are not looking to be entertained. They are looking for spiritual guidance. And listening to a one-hour sermon each week is not going to provide it.

Brother, this is a sight and sound generation. I attend a little country church. I have a wonderful pastor. He preaches the old fashioned way. He has missionaries in. Our little church supports so many different ministries, it's amazing. The folk there are friendly but mostly older folk. Our pastor is outgoing, outreaching into the community. Because of their age there isn't much the folk can do as an outreach but they are faithful every week to church. In my 20 yrs in ministry I've seen a major change. Hillsong became popular, tv evangelists become popular, they took the hymnbook out of the church. They wanted to change words to the hymns to suit their more modern beliefs. I believe in the old time way, I really do, but the church got distracted along the way. They didn't want the old hymns, the old way, the old time preacher. I've seen churches split over these issues. I don't see it, I don't see this group that wants to go into the streets and preach the Gospel. If that's what you're talking about I'm 100% behind you. William Booth started the Salvation Army by going out on the streets. I've done street ministry. Wherever you can win them, bring them in, do so!! But don't lay all the fault at the feet of the pastor. It's judgmental and unfair.