witches

[Pilgrimshope]

Most assuredly, Jesus is the only judge of who is truly born again or not.

However, are we not supposed to bring to bear on the believer's understanding the following information?

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don't think that it is judging individual Christians to bring to bear this information upon their understanding.

I leave it to the Holy Spirit to apply it to each individual's life as He sees fit.

The information in question may in fact be the very thing that causes them to cross over from a nominal Christianity into being truly born again.

Also, Jesus said that many false prophets would come in the clothing of sheep but that inwardly they are ravening wolves.

And He said that we would know them by their fruits.

yeah what I’m saying is we don’t have the place of deciding who’s a believer and who isn’t , who belongs to Jesus by faith and who doesn’t who’s a Christian and who isn’t ect we have to take people by thier word if they believe or not

no I agree , we shouldn’t shy away from the truth at all when we’re discussing scripture . What I’m saying is we don’t and can’t possibly determine who truly believes in the lord , so much of his teaching is internal to build faith and repentance and takes time to bear fruit

some people are just waking up from a lot of misinformation and don’t have thier walking legs yet is all I’m saying it’s hard for us to know the heart but God knows even before our deeds catch up we are his he’s accepting us first and making us better as we persevere in the light everyone is at a different stage so it makes it near impossible to make a sound judgement about who belongs to Jesus or not unless we accept thier worr

 

[Gardenias]

While hating to I've had to put some back in the box of ignore.
If we can't come and let us reason TOGETHER then it becames unfruitful to all.

 

[justbyfaith]

what won't cut it is Bible thumpers like you acting all high and mighty and just going around judging another's relationship with Jesus.

get off your religious high horse and remember that you are nothing more than a sinner saved by grace...

Someone once told me to get off my high horse and it devastated me for quite some time.

And while that is not going to happen again, I think that you need to be careful about what kinds of words you speak to people.

If I am persecuted for being a "Bible thumper" then I take pleasure in the fact that it is for righteousness' sake (Matthew 5:10-12, Luke 6:22-23, 2 Timothy 3:10-12).

If you are not a Bible thumper, you need to become one.

Because from my perspective, it is only Bible thumpers who are truly saved (see Romans 10:8).

Rom 10:8, But what saith <the righteousness of faith>? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[justbyfaith]

yeah what I’m saying is we don’t have the place of deciding who’s a believer and who isn’t , who belongs to Jesus by faith and who doesn’t who’s a Christian and who isn’t ect we have to take people by thier word if they believe or not

no I agree , we shouldn’t shy away from the truth at all when we’re discussing scripture . What I’m saying is we don’t and can’t possibly determine who truly believes in the lord , so much of his teaching is internal to build faith and repentance and takes time to bear fruit

some people are just waking up from a lot of misinformation and don’t have thier walking legs yet is all I’m saying it’s hard for us to know the heart but God knows even before our deeds catch up we are his he’s accepting us first and making us better as we persevere in the light everyone is at a different stage so it makes it near impossible to make a sound judgement about who belongs to Jesus or not unless we accept thier worr

I agree that Jesus is the final judge of whether someone is truly born again or not.

However, if someone is bearing bad fruit, we can determine from that that they are a bad tree (Matthew 7:15-20).

 

[gb9]

Someone once told me to get off my high horse and it devastated me for quite some time.

And while that is not going to happen again, I think that you need to be careful about what kinds of words you speak to people.

If I am persecuted for being a "Bible thumper" then I take pleasure in the fact that it is for righteousness' sake (Matthew 5:10-12, Luke 6:22-23, 2 Timothy 3:10-12).

If you are not a Bible thumper, you need to become one.

Because from my perspective, it is only Bible thumpers who are truly saved (see Romans 10:8).

Rom 10:8, But what saith <the righteousness of faith>? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

your perspective is quite wrong.

a person is saved by faith and trust in Jesus.

religious minded people like you want to come in and impose rules and regulations on top of that.

and you are wrong to do so.

as Paul said, " who are you to judge another's servant".

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that Jesus is the final judge of whether someone is truly born again or not.

However, if someone is bearing bad fruit, we can determine from that that they are a bad tree (Matthew 7:15-20).

yes brother but at one time you also bore bad fruit , I did too , the disciples in scripture did too

remember

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬

belief first in him , is what brings us to better fruit and his patience and willingness to allow for us to repent his longsuffering toward us. We’ve all born bad fruit at some point so instead of uprooting we should look toward the pruning that happens with the gospel of the kingdom and let the lord do his work in the heart

I don’t mean to argue at all just a consideration we were all swine at one point , all we’re sinners , all bore corrupt fruit and we should never forget the lowest place we came from in order to see sinners , we need only remember our own self at our worst and remember we weren’t a willing evil person but we didn’t know , or we didn’t have the strength yet or whatever the case

we’ve come along way now , and still have a ways to go but we want to gather as many sinners as we can and bring them to the cross and if they say I believe …. We should rejoice and not get out the magnifying glass looking for flaws but by sharing The gospel among Thy ode who hold Christ in belief he’s well able to lead them and correct them and save them

 

[justbyfaith]

your perspective is quite wrong.

a person is saved by faith and trust in Jesus.

religious minded people like you want to come in and impose rules and regulations on top of that.

and you are wrong to do so.

as Paul said, " who are you to judge another's servant".

I think that you misunderstand my teaching.

I am saying that by the law is the knowledge of sin; and that sin is the transgression of the law (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

A person who does not keep the law perfectly may indeed be born again and justified through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

And therefore, there is no rule or regulation, in my book, that is placed on top of faith in Jesus Christ, in order to be saved.

I do say that if anyone looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, that they will be blessed in what they do (James 1:25).

I would also say that there is no condemnation for those who "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1 (kjv)).

And, that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who do so (Romans 8:4).

While a person has eternal life simply by believing in Jesus (John 6:47).

Of course, your house will not stand when the storms of life come if you do not build your house on the foundation of obedience to the moral tenets that were given by our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain (Matthew 7:24-27, Luke 6:47-49).

And therefore, in order to have a faith that is sustained, one must have Jesus as their Lord and not just as their Saviour.

 

[justbyfaith]

yes brother but at one time you also bore bad fruit , I did too , the disciples in scripture did too

I do believe that when I was bearing fruit I was a bad tree (Matthew 7:15-20); not yet truly born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

we’ve come along way now , and still have a ways to go but we want to gather as many sinners as we can and bring them to the cross and if they say I believe …. We should rejoice and not get out the magnifying glass looking for flaws

I agree that this is generally true...however it would not be the case in situations where the person is coming to you as a prophet and yet is full of all kinds of bad fruit; especially when this bad fruit is evident even without applying a magnifying glass.

I think that if the person were not claiming to be a godly minister, I could give him more lenience. But because he claims to be a prophet, I feel that I should apply the principle that is found in Matthew 7:15-20 and judge him by his fruit.

 

[justbyfaith]

I do believe that when I was bearing fruit I was a bad tree (Matthew 7:15-20); not yet truly born again of the Holy Spirit.

when I was bearing *bad* fruit.

 

[SophieT]

I think that you misunderstand my teaching.

doesn't matter

this isn't your teaching platform

this is a forum and not your little barnyard

 

[SophieT]

This is what you are disagreeing with.

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The very words of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

actually people are rejecting your delivery, not the scripture

you believe something about yourself that is obviously not true

you are not equipped to look into someone elses' heart when your own is like a lead block

 

[Blik]

What I don't think the answers to this post is addressing is the seriousness of witches and the occult in our world today.

Historically, Christians have handled this problem in a terrible way. We know they accused innocent people and even murdered by burning innocent people. The profession of exorcist is almost non existent, now, and it is needed. We have the tools to accurately diagnose demon possession as opposed to a physical condition. Because of our attitude towards demon possession, there is nowhere for these poor people to go for help with that possession.

Read the book People of the Lie by M Scott Peck. It is an account by a psychiatrist of working with people who were possessed.

 

[SophieT]

What I don't think the answers to this post is addressing is the seriousness of witches and the occult in our world today.

Historically, Christians have handled this problem in a terrible way. We know they accused innocent people and even murdered by burning innocent people. The profession of exorcist is almost non existent, now, and it is needed. We have the tools to accurately diagnose demon possession as opposed to a physical condition. Because of our attitude towards demon possession, there is nowhere for these poor people to go for help with that possession.

Read the book People of the Lie by M Scott Peck. It is an account by a psychiatrist of working with people who were possessed.

I would disagree that no one has addressed the op question. and of course others are free to disagree.

actually Catholics have 'professional' exorcists and some are genuine. Catholics do take exorcism seriously

the first problem occurs because of the use of the word 'possessed'. Christians are not walking around 'possessed' as some believe. are Christians sometimes attacked and bothered by the demonic? yes, but that does not mean they are possessed.

the person has the demon; not the other way around

ALL mature Christians should know how to handle situations like that, but they do not and leave it for someone else to handle

and by the way, there is no such thing as a ministry of deliverance or a deliverance minister. that is just not in the Bible

you should know how to deal with these things as a matter of everyday life and some of us do and have

as with many other things, it seems many are NOT aware of the devil's schemes as per Paul's statement

 

[justbyfaith]

this isn't your teaching platform

I beg to differ.

It is a platform for quite a few here who have a gift of teaching.

 

[justbyfaith]

you believe something about yourself that is obviously not true

What, pray tell, is that?

I certainly do not believe myself to be "sinless" if that is what you are implying.

 

[Blik]

I would disagree that no one has addressed the op question. and of course others are free to disagree.

actually Catholics have 'professional' exorcists and some are genuine. Catholics do take exorcism seriously

the first problem occurs because of the use of the word 'possessed'. Christians are not walking around 'possessed' as some believe. are Christians sometimes attacked and bothered by the demonic? yes, but that does not mean they are possessed.

the person has the demon; not the other way around

ALL mature Christians should know how to handle situations like that, but they do not and leave it for someone else to handle

and by the way, there is no such thing as a ministry of deliverance or a deliverance minister. that is just not in the Bible

you should know how to deal with these things as a matter of everyday life and some of us do and have

as with many other things, it seems many are NOT aware of the devil's schemes as per Paul's statement

You are so right to correct me about posts that have addressed this problem. They are all valuable.

As for each of us personally handling the problem, that is quite a complicated subject.

I took in a woman diagnosed as bipolar, it was beyond my ability to handle. I think there is a possibility it was possession by demons rather than a physical impairment, I simply do not know.

She had grown up with a terrible fear that God would take her parents away in the rapture and she would be left alone. Each night she had a hard time sleeping, and would go check to see if her parents were still there. As an adult she said she was a Christian, but her explanations were more like understanding the power of the occult than knowing Christ as her savior. She had tantrums if I gave my attention to scripture instead of to her. I had her removed from my home as the only thing I was able to do to handle the situation.

Possession by demons happens when someone accepts sin as right for them. To see God as wanting evil for us seems a terrible way for a child to grow up.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I do believe that when I was bearing fruit I was a bad tree (Matthew 7:15-20); not yet truly born again of the Holy Spirit.

so you didn’t have this measure of faith yet ? I think you did

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith works like building blocks when you first come to Jesus the reason you put your faith in him is you believe that he is able to save you and what you have heard about him from scripture you believe it’s true at that point that’s all you really know so it’s enough.


So our accountability grows as our understanding grows but those who are just coming to Jesus are as saved as those who have believed fourty years . They each have different standards in Christ because they have only heard and understand what they have heard and understand like children

one is an infant he must be carried around , nurtured and fed , given extraordinary grace at times , loved and cared for , for a season before you hand out chores and work schedules to an older child who is capable and learned and equipped to achieve the goals .

Then when the time comes he is taught to walk he stumbles a lot but eventually he gets the balance thing down and walks better still holding the tables and chairs to help

and the older siblings help the young one they aren’t expecting the same from him as thier older brother, not because one is not thier sibling or for favoritism but because one is very young and doesn’t grasp how it all works in life yet ,

the other more is required and expected and is mature they have the understanding and experience required to grow up and become mature mistakes , failures , poor choices even at times are part of it that brought them to maturity and responsibility

we can be assured if we truly believe in Jesus for our eternal life no matter what stage we are at we’re going to be saved …. It is the reason we love and pursue him he’s saving us from damnation . we grow up through pursuit and eventually come to more revealed truth as older teen children do compared to infants or toddlers .

Understand Thyis is all just me hungry for conversation about Christian subjects my opinion and my view only , but I don’t think you were a bad tree brother I think we were all immature plants and had some infections and issues internal that caused some of our fruit to be not suitable for others eating.

But the great physician and arborist has and does each time we visit the gospel heals the issues and problems inside that lead us astray outwardly and that’s the only reason our fruits become better because we abide in the gospel and allow the pruning of repentance to work

it took me along time to realize I’m the only Christian who knows exactly what I know of scripture , other Christians are going to be judged by what exactly they really know of the gospel . So as we share it we’re all at different stages of maturity and requirement in our walk is all I mean to say

I feel as if Christs sacrifice was always and is always sufficient for the things we don’t understand or aren’t strong enough to overcome we have to repent and obey but that’s not what gives us salvation it’s just a fruit of maturity in Christ

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that this is generally true...however it would not be the case in situations where the person is coming to you as a prophet and yet is full of all kinds of bad fruit; especially when this bad fruit is evident even without applying a magnifying glass.

I think that if the person were not claiming to be a godly minister, I could give him more lenience. But because he claims to be a prophet, I feel that I should apply the principle that is found in Matthew 7:15-20 and judge him by his fruit.

yes brother you hit on what tha ya about false prophets and teachers I agree with that I’m referring to just our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think sometimes here in the forum a discussion happens and we then make each other as teachers teaching falsely or false prophets when often it’s just an open discussion and differing thoughts and views trying to learn more of a subject .

which could benefit if we noted the difference in a group of equal believers wanting to learn the scripture and discuss it’s meaning , and a seminary contest or teaching exhibition

some claim to be teachers and prophets and I agree with you completely that changes everything.


Anyways I appreciate the conversation you have a lot of good things to say for me to consider usually I appreciate the time and good spirit

 

[justbyfaith]

so you didn’t have this measure of faith yet ? I think you did

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith works like building blocks when you first come to Jesus the reason you put your faith in him is you believe that he is able to save you and what you have heard about him from scripture you believe it’s true at that point that’s all you really know so it’s enough.


So our accountability grows as our understanding grows but those who are just coming to Jesus are as saved as those who have believed fourty years . They each have different standards in Christ because they have only heard and understand what they have heard and understand like children

one is an infant he must be carried around , nurtured and fed , given extraordinary grace at times , loved and cared for , for a season before you hand out chores and work schedules to an older child who is capable and learned and equipped to achieve the goals .

Then when the time comes he is taught to walk he stumbles a lot but eventually he gets the balance thing down and walks better still holding the tables and chairs to help

and the older siblings help the young one they aren’t expecting the same from him as thier older brother, not because one is not thier sibling or for favoritism but because one is very young and doesn’t grasp how it all works in life yet ,

the other more is required and expected and is mature they have the understanding and experience required to grow up and become mature mistakes , failures , poor choices even at times are part of it that brought them to maturity and responsibility

we can be assured if we truly believe in Jesus for our eternal life no matter what stage we are at we’re going to be saved …. It is the reason we love and pursue him he’s saving us from damnation . we grow up through pursuit and eventually come to more revealed truth as older teen children do compared to infants or toddlers .

Understand Thyis is all just me hungry for conversation about Christian subjects my opinion and my view only , but I don’t think you were a bad tree brother I think we were all immature plants and had some infections and issues internal that caused some of our fruit to be not suitable for others eating.

But the great physician and arborist has and does each time we visit the gospel heals the issues and problems inside that lead us astray outwardly and that’s the only reason our fruits become better because we abide in the gospel and allow the pruning of repentance to work

it took me along time to realize I’m the only Christian who knows exactly what I know of scripture , other Christians are going to be judged by what exactly they really know of the gospel . So as we share it we’re all at different stages of maturity and requirement in our walk is all I mean to say

I feel as if Christs sacrifice was always and is always sufficient for the things we don’t understand or aren’t strong enough to overcome we have to repent and obey but that’s not what gives us salvation it’s just a fruit of maturity in Christ

I would still say that if anyone bears bad fruit, that we can determine from that that they are a bad tree.

If anyone is truly born again, they have been regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost...and therefore the following is true in their lives,

Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

So they do not bear bad fruit, regardless of their level of maturity.