The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[Absolutely]

The phrase you've been repeating, as far as I can tell, is not written (or stated) in the "imperative [command]".

It's more like if a person (like, say, from the south) saying, "Don't y'all say [i.e. don't y'all have an expression around here that goes like this...] 'there's four months 'til time to dig up the 'taters?' [...]"



IOW, He's not commanding "do not say [such and such]"


I'm not seeing it there.





First of all, to be clear to the readers... there's only ONE "Rapture" at ONE point in time.

IOW, the word "harvest" is NOT EQUATED with the word "Rapture," as though anywhere you read the word "harvest" think "Rapture," NO!!! No, no , no. For example, the "WHEAT" harvest (Matt13) is NOT the "Rapture"!

(and WE / "the Church which is his body" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest).



Second, Jesus in John 4 was not "send[-ing] the ANGELS / REAPers" (for THAT "harvest"--eschatologically related);
INSTEAD, in verse 38 Jesus is telling His disciples: "I sent you to reap what you have not toiled for; others have toiled, and you have entered into their labor." Speaking on the Subject of the "Samaritans". (...but not in any way an eschatological "harvest" involving the "angels" as "reapers," see. THAT is NOT the CONTEXT of chpt 4...).






What you are trying to do is turn Jesus' words into a "command"... and a "command" for all times to be adhered to. That's not proper "exegesis".

Exactly

A total no brainer that sixth grade level english skills could pick up easily.

 

[Absolutely]

The easiest and simplest way to look at wrath and tribulation is wrath is death and tribulation a 2nd chance. The flood was pure wrath there was no tribulation at all. If we look in the old testament even into the new. Like I pointed out before in Romans 2 wrath and tribulation are used in conjunction.

Wrath is final why we do not face wrath. When we look at different spots in the bible such as when Moses came down from the mount and the children of Israel worshipping the calf. The earth split open and folks died yet some where spared. God who claims absolute authority that he alone can read a mans heart and see it's very intents. He knows alone who will repent and who will not, who will get the second chance and who will not.

To me the biggest difference and why we have at least here in our discussion is just that the wrath. Really the whole crux of our arguments stems from how we view wrath.

As a fellow believer such as yourself in the divinity of Christ and he alone as our sufficiency. What makes me ultimately pretrib is my view on wrath. Which for me is the opening of seal one. I come to this conclusion when I read of past judgement by God. How he brings about a person to be that judgement. How in the old testament he even says that nations will bow to the will of that person. Nebuchadnezzar is a example.

The next seals opened we can also see is the wrath of God because he says so in Ezekiel 14. He says it is his wrath and his foursore judgements. The 4 sore judgments which he calls his wrath are the seals he opens in 2-4. Which ultimately one quarter of mankind will be wiped out or 2 billion people by todays worldwide population numbers. So this is wrath definitively because it keeps with the the language and the way the bible shows wrath. Wrath is final it brings physical and eternal death.

Tribulation is being between a rock and a hard place it is used to force a person into a position to either reject or repent. If you reject ultimately you face wrath. If you repent you do not face wrath because Christ has tasted that wrath for us.

So we never face wrath period. We face tribulation. Which the bible promises we will face trials and tribulations on this earth. However, the bible lets us know we face them because we are led away of our lusts. We face them because we have chaff yet to be burned up in our lives. The ultimate goal for us is to be presented as a bride without spot or blemish. Which our trials and tribulations serve as that for us a fire that burns away the chaff in our lives.

Seals 1-4 are the wrath of God as well as tribulation. 2 billion will die they will see physical and eternal death. Others will repent as they were forced to make a decision of rejection or repentance.

Seal 5 then to me makes sense and this is not doctrinal nor will I ever claim so. I fall upon history here and look at what history has shown. In times of great distress folks who have been spared or it passed by them they were scapegoated and persecuted till the point of death. The Jews period are a good example of this and their world history. However, we have other examples in history a famine hit and newcomers who it does not seem to effect have been scapegoated and persecuted and killed. Many different examples from different angles but ultimately we do see that yeah those who seem to not be facing it do get persecuted and killed.

So ultimately I conclude seal one, the opening, the wrath falls as a whole on a unbelieving world, some will stay rejecting and 2 billion of them will be removed and the earth purged of them. Some during the wrath it will be a tribulation as it forces them to make a decision, for them it brings forth repentance. Those still under the wrath scapegoat and kill them. Like I said for this can't prove it doctrinally but can do so historically.

So ultimately as a whole it is the wrath of God but individually it is wrath and tribulation based upon the individual and whether they will repent or reject. Then further wrath falls in the trumpets, bowls, and vials as some will again die while others will repent. Whoever falls upon the rock shall be broke into pieces but whoever the rock falls upon shall be ground up. Some of us need more of a falling onto the rock before we are broke and come to a place of brokenness so we surrender. Others they never will.

I agree with most of this.
It frames part of the argument.

Not the center.

The center is the bride / groom dynamic

 

[Absolutely]

no you haven't - you keep thinking you have

Now post the Scripture that say:
Noah was pre-trib raptured from the flood.
Lot was pre-trib raptured from destruction upon S&G
Elijah and the True Prophets were pre-trib raptured BEFORE Jezebel started her killing spree
Job was pre-trib raptured from satan's wrath
the Saints are pre-trib raptured from satan's wrath

that is your classic reframe.

Introduce your bag of tricks unto the equation.

""Show me tribulation""

Uh it was YOU that insisted noah had great tribulation prior to the flood.
You even went to sme lenght to declare " tribulation ALWAYS precedes wrath"

You had to be shown that was error.

And lo....here we are again with this nothing burger


You put out all that energy on that failed doctrine

And yes we can see you really really need the trib before wrath with noah ( inspite of Jesus words) with some made up rapture at mid trib. ( which in modern terms would be per trib/ post wrath baloney)

 

[DavidTree]

What on earth do you think you proved??????

You post a set of verses that , in your mind, you think bolsters your position.

Just any verses with no power point from you.

And in your mind think you did something

You disagree with 1 Thess 4 that gives a clear understanding of the Resurrection at His Coming?

 

[DavidTree]

that is your classic reframe.

Introduce your bag of tricks unto the equation.

""Show me tribulation""

Uh it was YOU that insisted noah had great tribulation prior to the flood.
You even went to sme lenght to declare " tribulation ALWAYS precedes wrath"

You had to be shown that was error.

And lo....here we are again with this nothing burger


You put out all that energy on that failed doctrine

And yes we can see you really really need the trib before wrath with noah ( inspite of Jesus words) with some made up rapture at mid trib. ( which in modern terms would be per trib/ post wrath baloney)

You believe the Scripture is a 'bag of tricks' ???

 

[DavidTree]

that is your classic reframe.

Introduce your bag of tricks unto the equation.

""Show me tribulation""

Uh it was YOU that insisted noah had great tribulation prior to the flood.
You even went to sme lenght to declare " tribulation ALWAYS precedes wrath"

You had to be shown that was error.

And lo....here we are again with this nothing burger


You put out all that energy on that failed doctrine

And yes we can see you really really need the trib before wrath with noah ( inspite of Jesus words) with some made up rapture at mid trib. ( which in modern terms would be per trib/ post wrath baloney)

i did not say "show me tribulation" - i said "pre-trib rapture"

i said = "Tribulation began in Genesis and continues thru Revelation. Tribulation always before deliverance from God's wrath.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You put out all that energy on that failed doctrine

A failed doctrine is a doctrine that has NO verses that state the doctrine.

Like a pretrib rapture, for instance. Not one verse showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

 

[DavidTree]

A failed doctrine is a doctrine that has NO verses that state the doctrine.

Like a pretrib rapture, for instance. Not one verse showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

Dear Brothers in the Lord, this is the whole premise of Truth.

If it did not come out of the Mouth of God, then we should not feed off of it.

Does anyone realize that if pre-trib were Truth it would easily be seen and found in the Scripture.

The constant theme from Genesis to Revelation for the People of God is as follows (pertaining to pre-trib)
1.) God warns
2.) Sin abounds
3.) Grace to those who Believe
4.) Tribulation comes against His People
5) God delivers His People and pours out wrath upon the ungodly

Pre-trib is sugar coated, tastes great, bad nutrition that will rot your teeth and bones.

 

[peldom10]

NIV is incorrect. "Do not say" and "Say not ye" are the SAME - PEACE

Many changes in the new bibles are in grave error of miss leading.
The Bible tells us ...in the end times there will be great delusions...they are here.

 

[walknlight]

Good morning!

error of miss leading.

The scripture is of no private interpretation, so its not the translation,
More so "people"----false teachers, twisting and lying to make things fit their agenda
Thank Yahweh for His Spirit to discern.....

The Bible tells us ...in the end times there will be great delusions...they are here.

Indeed!
1Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

God Bless!

 

[DavidTree]

Good morning!

The scripture is of no private interpretation, so its not the translation,
More so "people"----false teachers, twisting and lying to make things fit their agenda
Thank Yahweh for His Spirit to discern.....

Indeed!
1Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

God Bless!

Beautiful One in Christ, a error in translation can change the Truth into a lie.

Example: Watchtower(false witnesses) changed the Gospel of John in a number of places to remove the Eternal Godhead of CHRIST in the FATHER.

They changed John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

 

[Absolutely]

You disagree with 1 Thess 4 that gives a clear understanding of the Resurrection at His Coming?

Sorry
I am not the one reframing verses.

It was you that the first resurrection a day after Armageddon

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry
I am not the one reframing verses.

It was you that the first resurrection a day after Armageddon

First Resurrection at His Coming - He is also bringing His Wrath at His Coming - choose wisely.

No one knows the exact details(timing, duration, etc) of the unfolding of His Coming but we do know that there will NEVER be a rapture prior to His Coming and the First Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Revelation chs19-20

i don't muddy the waters with opinions of men - just stay with "IT IS WRITTEN".

PEACE

 

[Absolutely]

Dear Brothers in the Lord, this is the whole premise of Truth.

If it did not come out of the Mouth of God, then we should not feed off of it.

Does anyone realize that if pre-trib were Truth it would easily be seen and found in the Scripture.

The constant theme from Genesis to Revelation for the People of God is as follows (pertaining to pre-trib)
1.) God warns
2.) Sin abounds
3.) Grace to those who Believe
4.) Tribulation comes against His People
5) God delivers His People and pours out wrath upon the ungodly

Pre-trib is sugar coated, tastes great, bad nutrition that will rot your teeth and bones.

Oh yeah how dare Jesus give us to escape versus and place his coming before the flood and tell the disciples via the angels. Jesus shall return in "like manner", which would be impossible to try to frame that in a destroyed earth, with no buying or selling ,a war zone , and billions of white horses ,with Jesus on a white horse ,with a sword coming out of his mouth killing the army of the Antichrist.
You call Jesus alone in a robe all by his self no horses no Army killing nobody ......
you actually reframe all that into the opposite!!!!!

"Like manner"
Huge,huge, postrib dilemma.

Postrib rapture clingers reframing Gods word

 

[Absolutely]

First Resurrection at His Coming - He is also bringing His Wrath at His Coming - choose wisely.

No one knows the exact details(timing, duration, etc) of the unfolding of His Coming but we do know that there will NEVER be a rapture prior to His Coming and the First Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Revelation chs19-20

i don't muddy the waters with opinions of men - just stay with "IT IS WRITTEN".

PEACE

We all know the rapture / main resurrection is at his coming.

But for you, you place it several places
One of your places is well after armageddon.

How long after Armageddon is that first resurrection are you placing it?
Jesus comes to Earth on the white horses he defeats the Antichrist after Armageddon we see Thrones established on Earth and resurrected beheaded Saints sitting on those Thrones. It is at that time you say the Resurrection happens.

Your doctrine carried you and others into error big time.

Thank you Jesus for you word

 

[DavidTree]

Oh yeah how dare Jesus give us to escape versus and place his coming before the flood and tell the disciples via the angels. Jesus shall return in "like manner", which would be impossible to try to frame that in a destroyed earth, with no buying or selling ,a war zone , and billions of white horses ,with Jesus on a white horse ,with a sword coming out of his mouth killing the army of the Antichrist.
You call Jesus alone in a robe all by his self no horses no Army killing nobody ......
you actually reframe all that into the opposite!!!!!

"Like manner"
Huge,huge, postrib dilemma.

Postrib rapture clingers reframing Gods word

Well your mixing things up as you see them - if you return to Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19, God will help you to see clearly.

I can see clearly now the rain is gone
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind

It's gonna be a bright (bright)
Bright (bright) sunshiny day
It's gonna be a bright (bright)
Bright (bright) sunshiny day

Oh, yes I can make it now the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is that rainbow I've been praying for

The LORD of TRUTH is the Rainbow of Blessing and Protection to us who know and love Him.

 

[Absolutely]

First Resurrection at His Coming - He is also bringing His Wrath at His Coming - choose wisely.

No one knows the exact details(timing, duration, etc) of the unfolding of His Coming but we do know that there will NEVER be a rapture prior to His Coming and the First Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Revelation chs19-20

i don't muddy the waters with opinions of men - just stay with "IT IS WRITTEN".

PEACE

Dodge

Lets go direct...maybe you will not dodge

IS THE FIRST AND ONLY FIRST RESURRECTION AFTER ARMAGEDDON IN REV 20.???

I KNOW

YOU WILL NOT ANSWER IT.

 

[Absolutely]

Well your mixing things up as you see them - if you return to Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19, God will help you to see clearly.

I can see clearly now the rain is gone
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind

It's gonna be a bright (bright)
Bright (bright) sunshiny day
It's gonna be a bright (bright)
Bright (bright) sunshiny day

Oh, yes I can make it now the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is that rainbow I've been praying for

The LORD of TRUTH is the Rainbow of Blessing and Protection to us who know and love Him.

I KNEW YOU WOULD NOT ADDRESS those Rapture verses

 

[DavidTree]

We all know the rapture / main resurrection is at his coming.

But for you, you place it several places
One of your places is well after armageddon.

How long after Armageddon is that first resurrection are you placing it?
Jesus comes to Earth on the white horses he defeats the Antichrist after Armageddon we see Thrones established on Earth and resurrected beheaded Saints sitting on those Thrones. It is at that time you say the Resurrection happens.

Your doctrine carried you and others into error big time.

Thank you Jesus for you word

LOL x100 - it is the pre-fibbers that displace His Coming and shift it around.

His Coming is found in Matthew 24, Acts 1, 1 Thess 4, Revelation chs 19-20, James ch 5

Now, if you will accept that and not displace it - you will be in the Truth.

 

[DavidTree]

Dodge

Lets go direct...maybe you will not dodge

IS THE FIRST AND ONLY FIRST RESURRECTION AFTER ARMAGEDDON IN REV 20.???

I KNOW

YOU WILL NOT ANSWER IT.

NOPE - who said AFTER ch 20