Misconceptions

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#41
I once was helping a young woman who, because of an event in her life, was somewhat hysterical. She was weeping and could not be consoled.

Like always, I had been praying to the the Lord and asking Him for direction for my counsel. Often I receive understanding of His love for them of how He desires to minister to them. This time I received a command from the Lord: "Tell her she is a peace-maker." Honestly, I was a bit baffled. In her hysterical state she was everything BUT peaceful. Nevertheless, as I learned from consistent use, I did not hesitate.

"You are a peace-maker."

Immediately she stopped bawling and looked up at me. Then I received more from the Lord.

"You were created not to succumb the ways of the enemy but to destroy them."

The weight of the press lifted from her shoulders and the light returned to her eyes. Her head cleared and we had a deep conversation about her life and Lord.
Scripture that you had previously learned being prompted by God for you to administer to her?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#42
Scripture that you had previously learned being prompted by God for you to administer to her?
I don’t understand. You have a ? but there is no question.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
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#43
Yeah good joke :)

So what is the objective evidence through history that you know of ?
for starters, the Lord Jesus said Mark 16:17

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 Open verse states : 12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:

chapter 14 Last Two verse states :
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


Not one verse states that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE CEASED. That was added by those who look at what IS Canonized yet don't see that 1corthian chapters 12 through 14 are part of the Canonized scripture.

the gifts of the Holy Have been well documented from the Four Gospel to the Book of Acts and the early church. From each recorded move of God that shook nations with revival And continues today. Do you want evidence? Start in your own life why are you not seeing people saved by your faith? How many drug addicts have you seen delivered from the depth of hell? IF not why not? Do you share the gospel message ? is there no confirming what you have said by a person getting saved? Or are people wowed by your knowledge of the word of God? What power is in your witness? As Jesus said you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you to be a WITNESS! Acts 1:8


Where is your proof of you being a witness of Christ how are you witnessing that HE has risen from the Dead as Those in the book 0f Acts did in chapter 4:33. Please tell me how gang bangers, those of homeless came off heroin and drugs by your Knowledge of the Bible? Please tell me how you're expository teaching worked on the streets of LA, SF, and NY?

I want to hear of your results from your fruit. Then I will gladly for the glory of God share what GOD has done in my life and for others through the gifts of the Holy Spirit AFTER YOU. PLease I will wait :)


 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
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New Zealand
#44
for starters, the Lord Jesus said Mark 16:17

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 Open verse states : 12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:

chapter 14 Last Two verse states :
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


Not one verse states that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE CEASED. That was added by those who look at what IS Canonized yet don't see that 1corthian chapters 12 through 14 are part of the Canonized scripture.

the gifts of the Holy Have been well documented from the Four Gospel to the Book of Acts and the early church. From each recorded move of God that shook nations with revival And continues today. Do you want evidence? Start in your own life why are you not seeing people saved by your faith? How many drug addicts have you seen delivered from the depth of hell? IF not why not? Do you share the gospel message ? is there no confirming what you have said by a person getting saved? Or are people wowed by your knowledge of the word of God? What power is in your witness? As Jesus said you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you to be a WITNESS! Acts 1:8


Where is your proof of you being a witness of Christ how are you witnessing that HE has risen from the Dead as Those in the book 0f Acts did in chapter 4:33. Please tell me how gang bangers, those of homeless came off heroin and drugs by your Knowledge of the Bible? Please tell me how you're expository teaching worked on the streets of LA, SF, and NY?

I want to hear of your results from your fruit. Then I will gladly for the glory of God share what GOD has done in my life and for others through the gifts of the Holy Spirit AFTER YOU. PLease I will wait :)
Well I was leading outreach for my church thru mid 2000s to early 2010s. We would do a survey about life leading to presenting the gospel.

We saw many, many people professing faith in Christ. From all walks.

Before that I was with Campus Crusade doing outreach at university as a student and saw many profess faith in Christ.

All it would take now is to try going out again sharing.

Not easy inviting people to church tho.. we meet at the pastors house. But yeah.. these always hope.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#46
I mean.. is the inspiration you got.. scripture from previous reading that God put on your heart for them?
Ah, I see. No, it came in the moment.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
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#47
Well I was leading outreach for my church thru mid 2000s to early 2010s. We would do a survey about life leading to presenting the gospel.

We saw many, many people professing faith in Christ. From all walks.

Before that I was with Campus Crusade doing outreach at university as a student and saw many profess faith in Christ.

All it would take now is to try going out again sharing.

Not easy inviting people to church tho.. we meet at the pastors house. But yeah.. these always hope.
really, prove it ? Surely you don't want me to take your word for it?
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#48
This doesn't say that prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge have ceased. It's just comparing unfailing nature of love to those three things.

1 Corinthians 13:8
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I can understand the misconception by those without the gift of prophecy, but Paul is correct. It is often not fully clear what the divine revelation is. What Paul said below is an accurate description of what it's like to prophesy:

1 Corinthians 13:9
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
An explanation from the past:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-2#post-848660
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#49
No. It says very emphatically that they would cease. And they did cease. Check out Church history.
They ceased for all the wrong reasons. Often where there has been a true revival, the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been restored. The real church was utterly suppressed by Catholicism for centuries. One notable restoration was during the period that John and Charles Wesley ministered. John Wesley stated, and I agree, that the spiritual condition of the church was the the problem. John Wesley was Anglican all his life, but was scathing about the pathetic state of the Church of England.

The Welsh revival of 1900's was similar. There was a revival in Australia in 1902 led by RA Torrey. In the 1970's the Charismatic movement restored the gifts to the church. Now the gifts of the Spirit are rarely manifested even in full on Pentecostal churches. The decline of the gifts is due to spiritual decay, not because we don't need them anymore. Speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts and overemphasis on tongues is unhelpful. Saying you must speak in tongues to prove that you are saved is heresy. But the gifts of the Spirit are necessary and will be until the end of the church age.

Why should the gifts be helpful? The Bible is not specific in many cases. I was with a small group of Christians who attended a wedding. We came from about 1,000 km away, from different directions. Two of the people came by motorbike. One was completely unable to move because of a terrible toothache. His brother said that we should pray for him. To myself, I said that God does not heal teeth. I'd never heard such a thing. The Lord said to me, "Yes I do!" I had a gift of faith for that moment. I prayed for the man and he was healed instantly. I've had nothing exactly like that since - 45 years ago.

I had some serious spiritual problems due to my lack of knowledge of God's ways. I met a man who had a number of spiritual gifts. He discerned the root cause of the problem. I may never have been set free otherwise.

Spiritual gifts do not replace study of God's word, prayer and fellowship. But they can sure shine a light on a specific problem, offer guidance in difficult situations, answer the cry of a seeking heart, encourage someone who is struggling or give direction to someone who lacks wisdom.

If you think that the Church is perfect and no longer needs spiritual gifts, I would have to disagree. I've been saved 50 years. The church is but a shadow of what it was when I was first saved.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#50
I appreciate the effort that GRA put into that post. While I agree with some of it, his cessationist interpretation doesn't really make sense scripturally or with reality.

Paul proceeds to discuss prophesying and give instructions on how to judge the authenticity of prophesying.

So the gift of prophesying didn't cease at the time of Paul's writings and quite frankly it doesn't say when it will cease anywhere in the Bible. I think that's the bottom line. And the gifts haven't stopped.

Did you know God was very serious when He said "Have faith?" He loves faith a lot. I think He will bless whoever has great faith with gifts. It's all for His glory afterall.

There are still people capable of receiving messages from God, the Creator of the universe. I have my own testimonies and others have their own testimonies. There's not an easy way to describe what that's like, but once you experience that sort of gift it puts 1 Corinthians 13 in a different perspective.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
They ceased for all the wrong reasons.
We are talking about the three gifts that would cease according to prophecy . They ceased for all the right reasons. Since the Bible was now complete there was no need for those three gifts. And after the apostles passed on, there was no need for the gifts associated with the apostles. The Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. So the gift of apostles was limited. So were the signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the apostles.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#52
We are talking about the three gifts that would cease according to prophecy . They ceased for all the right reasons. Since the Bible was now complete there was no need for those three gifts. And after the apostles passed on, there was no need for the gifts associated with the apostles. The Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. So the gift of apostles was limited. So were the signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the apostles.
You have no basis to say that. In fact, it is the opposite. The founding Apostles are not here anymore, but the Holy Spirit is. If the manifestations that were (and are to a degree) common are not the Holy Spirit, then what is the source? Be careful what you say. Attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil is the unpardonable sin.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#53
Attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil is the unpardonable sin.
Since I have said no such thing, please listen up:

1. The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included). Their names are in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Indisputable evidence.

2. There were no apostles after the twelve. Church history confirms this.

3. The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul.

4. Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history.

5. Paul prophesied that (a) prophecy, (b) tongues, and (c) knowledge (supernatural) would cease. Once the Bible was complete those gifts ceased. Again check out Church history. John warned in Revelation that nothing more was to be added.

6. If God said that some gifts would cease, why are Christians unwilling to accept that decision? Because they think they are wiser than God.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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#54
This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.


HI Wattie,


Thanks for bringing this topic up--it's given me somethings to think about and study.

I'm reading your original post--had skimmed it and now reading more carefully. I'd like to point out of couple of things.

One what is 1st Corinthians 13 talking about? What is the subject? Is it about the cessation of gifts or something else?

it saying faith, hope, and love are the most important things--and the primacy of LOVE.

I wonder if because many believers were eyewitnesses to miracles or heard first hand accounts, perhaps sought them out, take Simon the Sorcerer as an example who tried to pay for them. The ceasing in these scriptures I don't believe is speaking of an end point in our time, but instead ceasing at the end of the age. I don't believe it's about whether they end or not but rather to think on what is most important--faith, hope and love.

Also you called faith, hope and love spiritual gifts--but these aren't spiritual gifts--all believers have these.

Spirtual gifts are:
Prophecy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Giving, Leadership, Mercy,Word of wisdom, Word of knowledge, Gifts of healings, Miracles, Prophecy, Distinguishing between spirits, Tongues, Interpretation of tongues, Faith (and I think this is different faith than the universal faith of believers)


Also this is this is the first time I've heard this:

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

I think we need to be careful not to go too far in either direction--I don't see how it does any good to believe in the cessation of gifts--in fact I see it as harmful as I've said in another post Paul said "The same power that rose Jesus from the grave lives in us."




.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#56
Since I have said no such thing, please listen up:

1. The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included). Their names are in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Indisputable evidence.

2. There were no apostles after the twelve. Church history confirms this.

3. The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul.

4. Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history.

5. Paul prophesied that (a) prophecy, (b) tongues, and (c) knowledge (supernatural) would cease. Once the Bible was complete those gifts ceased. Again check out Church history. John warned in Revelation that nothing more was to be added.

6. If God said that some gifts would cease, why are Christians unwilling to accept that decision? Because they think they are wiser than God.
No, it's because God did not put a time and date on when they would cease. And signs and wonders were not limited to the apostles. Stephen also did great miracles. He was not one of the 12. Acts 6:8. You still have not answered my question. If the gift of prophecy, knowledge and tongues ceased, what is the source of such things now? I've spoken in tongues, I've prophesied and I have the gift of word of knowledge. I had a word from the Lord this afternoon, for someone struggling in the walk. He was uplifted and encouraged. I can assure you it was nothing to do with my human wit or wisdom. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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#57
I have seen several absolute miracles! Those who don't see don't believe!
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
#58
This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.








.
Hi again, Wattie,

I was wondering why faith was listed as one of the spiritual gifts (listed in my previous response to this). I knew it must be an unsual faith--that stands out from the rest. I thought this article was helpful. Perhaps other will will find it helpful--I for one am very glad you've posted this--I have never thought to pray for the gifts, but I am going to now! And I wish that everyone would! First on my list is this faith! (I see they left off miracle working in this list)

I found this article which I found helpful --though they left off miracle working faith...I'll be searching for other articles...


The spiritual gift of faith is found in the list of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. Verse 9 says that some people are given the gift of faith, but the gift is not specifically explained. All believers have been given saving faith by God as the only means of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9), but not all believers are given the spiritual gift of faith. Like all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the spiritual gift of faith was given for the “common good,” which means the edifying of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7).

The gift of faith may be defined as the special gift whereby the Spirit provides Christians with extraordinary confidence in God’s promises, power, and presence so they can take heroic stands for the future of God’s work in the church. The spiritual gift of faith is exhibited by one with a strong and unshakeable confidence in God, His Word, and His promises. Examples of people with the gift of faith are those listed in Hebrews chapter 11. This chapter, often called “the hall of faith,” describes those whose faith was extraordinary, enabling them to do extraordinary, superhuman things. Here we see Noah spending 120 years building a huge boat when, up to that time, rain was non-existent and Abraham believing he would father a child when his wife’s natural ability to do so had ended. Without the special gift of faith from God, such things would have been impossible.

As with all spiritual gifts, the gift of faith is given to some Christians who then use it to edify others in the body of Christ. Those with the gift of faith are an inspiration to their fellow believers, exhibiting a simple confidence in God that shows in all they say and do. Extraordinarily faithful people show a humble godliness and reliance on God’s promises, often so much so that they are known to be quietly fearless and zealous. They are so convinced that all obstacles to the gospel and to God’s purposes will be overcome and so confident that God will secure the advancement of His cause, that they will often do far more in the promotion of His kingdom than the most talented and erudite preachers and teachers.

To sum it up, God gives all Christians saving faith. The spiritual gift of faith is given to some, who exhibit extraordinary amounts of faith in their Christian walk and who, by their faith, are a joy and an encouragement to others.

https://www.gotquestions.org/gift-of-faith.html
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#59
"Christianity" is FILLED with Satanic unbelief. The Church of Jesus was FILLED with miracles!
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#60
really, prove it ? Surely you don't want me to take your word for it?
Well I'm saying they professed faith in Christ.. very difficult to know exactly who actually genuine believed in those people.

But as to the outreach I was doing.. well guess I'd have to get you to contact my friends thru Facebook that were part of campus Crusade and part of my church in the past.... but I dont think we need go that far.