How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[peldom10]

No, it does not say that. It may be how you are reading it, but it does not say what you think it does.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.

This is a coming without horses. The Revelation 19 coming is with horses.
This is a coming with an archangel. The Revelation 19 coming is with armies of angels.
This is a coming in John's timeline after the days of GT. In Paul's coming it is before wrath. It is impossible they are both speaking of one coming.

We know there is a rapture...which begins the tribulation period. Many consider this to be Christ's 2nd coming....I am not convinced.
...in the twinkling of an eye is a very short period of time for Christ to appear and be gone.........scripture leads us in that direction however.......
When Christ appears with His armies later in the trib. period.......is the 2nd advent ....it appears.

 

[Evmur]

At this time, I will be glorified and enjoying the wedding feast.

You must distinguish between Tribulation which comes from the world ... "in the world you will have tribulation" and "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom"

and God's wrath which indeed we shall escape having been raptured.

 

[Evmur]

Many Jews died without accepting Jesus' Atonement for their sins. Remember what Jesus told a Jew named Nicodemus. We all need to be born again if we want to be ready.

There is the Kingdom of God in heaven ... that's our inheritance and there is the kingdom of God on earth which is yet to come ... that is what the Jews were promised and what they shall get.

"Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

 

[peldom10]

You must distinguish between Tribulation which comes from the world ... "in the world you will have tribulation" and "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom"

and God's wrath which indeed we shall escape having been raptured.

Notice...I said THE tribulation...not a tribulation. The denotes it as the greatest ever.

 

[DavidTree]

Looks like you are the one who is adding to Scripture by refusing to accept the fact that when Christ comes in the air, He does NOT come to the ground.

Never have i rejected the words of the LORD and the Apostles.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt 24

Acts 1 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17

I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!
Daniel 7

 

[Evmur]

Because they rejected the Deity of Jesus and they refused to be wased in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb.

Revelation
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes but it couldn't be more clearly stated
Revs 20 4
These are the martyrs of the Great Tribulation they will reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years ...this is the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just [those in Christ at His coming] blessed and holy are they.

After the 1, 000 years there is a short sharp battle then comes the general resurrection unto judgement.

Those who are shown in the first resurrection had been pursued and persecuted and executed for not receiving the mark. This is the Great Tribulation.

 

[DavidTree]

Looks like you are the one who is adding to Scripture by refusing to accept the fact that when Christ comes in the air, He does NOT come to the ground.

Dear Brother Nehemiah6 - that was not my statement - that statement came from member lamad Post #2,845

 

[DavidTree]

Looks like you are the one who is adding to Scripture by refusing to accept the fact that when Christ comes in the air, He does NOT come to the ground.

Dear Brother Nehemiah6, the following statement was made by member lamad Post #2,845

lamad said: "This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!"
"IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground."

 

[Evmur]

Not according to your doctrine.
You have the dead rising AFTER the living are gathered in rev 14.

Error big time

Forget about Revelations 14 ... go by the plain and open scripture in 2.Thess.2. which specifically deals with the rap. That day does not come unless FIRST there is the great rebellion, 2nd the man of rebellion is revealed who will oppose everything god so called [including YOU]

He's coming after YOU this is the great tribulation.

He is the beast, Jesus slays him in the temple ... there is no more persecution, no more mark of the beast after Jesus comes Antichrist is slain.

 

[Evmur]

rev 14 has Jesus in a cloud gathering his covenant people DURING THE TRIB.

What a disappointment for those erroneously pushing a postrib rapture

Devastating.

This is far out wrong ... He is not gathering us with a sickle is He? He's not going to sickle us into heaven. It is the harvest of the wicked in verse 19 it tells you the clusters he gathered were thrown into great wine press of GOD'S WRATH.

How can it be the church?

 

[Evmur]

Rev 14
Jesus gathers with a sickle sitting on a cloud during the trib.

So you have the dead in christ raised after the living.

That alone destroys postrib rapture doctrine

No no I said the dead in Christ ... the dead of the second resurrection are the unregenerate.

 

[Evmur]

Notice...I said THE tribulation...not a tribulation. The denotes it as the greatest ever.

yes I understand that

what I wanted to show is that tribulation comes from man, from the world ... as distinguished from God's wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

Show us where God said the "second coming shall come after the Great Tribulation." CAN you show us?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

 

[ewq1938]

Looks like you are the one who is adding to Scripture by refusing to accept the fact that when Christ comes in the air, He does NOT come to the ground.

He does eventually, just not at first.

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 14
Jesus gathers with a sickle sitting on a cloud during the trib.

So you have the dead in christ raised after the living.

That alone destroys postrib rapture doctrine

The Sickle is an instrument of death/reaping = cutting down that which is standing

There is no rapture in Revelation 14

 

[ewq1938]

The Sickle is an instrument of death/reaping = cutting down that which is standing

Have you double checked the Greek word's definition?


G1407
δρέπανον
drepanon
drep'-an-on
From δρέπω drepō (to pluck); a gathering hook (especially for harvesting) : - sickle.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

G1407
δρέπανον
drepanon
Thayer Definition:
1) a sickle, a pruning-hook, a hooked vine knife, such as reapers and vinedressers use
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from drepo (to pluck)

This is not the type of wheat or grain or grass type of sickle you are thinking of. This type of sickle is made especially for harvesting grapes.

 

[surfer14]

The Sickle is an instrument of death/reaping = cutting down that which is standing

There is no rapture in Revelation 14

Hey David,
Just thought I'd pipe in here to tell you three things:
1. Keep up the good work on disputing this pre-trib rapture hogwash.
2. I've been catching a ton of fish lately. A ton of thoroughly decent fish!
3. Since you brought up death and reaping and such... I might put the flyrod down and pick up the rifle for the winter though. There's coyotes to be called... and shot....and I'm the man for the job!

That is all.
Carry on.

 

[GaryA]

Many people imagine Jesus spoke of Paul's rapture ...

Paul spoke of Jesus' rapture - Jesus spoke of it first...

 

[Absolutely]

This is far out wrong ... He is not gathering us with a sickle is He? He's not going to sickle us into heaven. It is the harvest of the wicked in verse 19 it tells you the clusters he gathered were thrown into great wine press of GOD'S WRATH.

How can it be the church?

Then you just placed the 144k
As firstfruits of wicked.
See thats the thing.
What is that with just ascribing anything to bible composition.

First fruits designates main harvest.
No main harvest = no firstfruits.

 

[GaryA]

You said:

I also might add more of my commentary about Mark 13:27:

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

They are being gathered from the earth and moved to heaven or they are being gathered everywhere in earth and heaven? There are two ways to read this, but which makes sense?

I said:

only one 'proper' way to read it

gathered everywhere

'from-to' is a range/extents description

There is no verb action to 'move' anyone [to] anywhere. The only verb action is 'gather'.

The only "moving" is contained/defined by 'gather together'.

There is no "movement" to "the uttermost part of heaven"...



Does this help explain it better?