24 Elders seated around the throne, who are they ?

[elights]

I hear people calling the 24 elders 12 sons of israel and twelve apostles,these people are revealed to John who was among the apostles but was still on earth,these people are not identified by the bible and i dont think speculating who they are can lead to any biblical conclusion!!

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Paul gave us the Rapture understanding via goi g to Heaven and being explained it......SMH.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Must be read in context with
1 Thess 4:15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.…

There was doubt amongst the Thessalonians about resurrection wrt the living.

It is consistent with
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those that live through the first resurrection will greet Jesus as those that have been resurrected. It is poetical description, not a literal one.

And what does the Sidney Morning Herald have to do with anything???

 

[lawrence101]

I think you may be right. There's the issue of John still being on earth at the time of his vision, so if it's the 12 apostles he must have seen a vision of himself in the future.

I see what your saying but its bin said that this isn't necessarily the same John, i.e one of the original 12, but may very well be.

 

[lawrence101]

Yet the 24 elders sang praises to the lamb for redeeming them with his blood

Exactly my thoughts, and its my belief that those same "Elders" are there right now seated around the throne and have that position eternally. But this raises another question, if they are already there , when and where did they get their crowns ?

 

[justbyfaith]

24 is a symbolic number; since the 24 elders are collected from every tribe, tongue, and nation according to scripture; and there are more than 24 of those in the world.

I believe it represents 12 seats of judgment for the Old Testament and 12 seats of judgment for the New.

 

[lawrence101]

I hear people calling the 24 elders 12 sons of israel and twelve apostles,these people are revealed to John who was among the apostles but was still on earth,these people are not identified by the bible and i dont think speculating who they are can lead to any biblical conclusion!!

What "people" did John see ?

 

[lawrence101]

They represent the Raptured Church, we know this by the way they are described as FAITHFUL OVERCOMERS !!

Rev. 4:4 And (1)round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in (2)white raiment ; and they had on their (3)heads crowns of gold.

(1)...........Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(2)...........Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(3)..........Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Israel are the Wheat, they must go through the Tribulation (be crushed) in order to be sifted, the Church is the Barley, and barley doesn't need to be crushed before it is sifted. Daniel was clearly told he would stand in his lot at the VERY END, and in Dan. 12:1-2 we clearly see that the Jews are raised up at the very end.

The book of Revelation has 404 verses and 289 have Old Testament lingo, Rev. 17 is a story from Daniel 5, the Mene, Mene, Tekel story of Babylons fall/handwriting on the wall. The 24 Elders are just referring to the Church as pertaining unto who they are as seen by God. In 1 Chronicles 24 we get the 24 Orders of the Priesthood.

The Divisions of the Priests
1 Chronicles 24:1 The divisions of the descendants of Aaron were as follows: Aaron’s sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

7 The first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,
8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim,
9 the fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin,
10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah,
11 the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah,
12 the eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim,
13 the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab,
14 the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
15 the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez,
16 the nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezkel,
17 the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul,
18 the twenty-third to Delaiah, and the twenty-fourth to Maaziah.

So, the 24 Elders represent the Priesthood, and what does Rev. 5:9-10 call us the Church in heaven? LOOK BELOW !!

Rev. 5:9 And they (Church) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain(Jesus), and hast redeemed us(Church) to God by thy blood(Jesus) out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation(The Church is in EVERY Nation);

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests {24 Orders of the Priesthood} and we shall reign on the earth.

So, the 24 Elders is just a CODE telling everyone this is the Church in Heaven, who OVERCAME, many were faithful unto DEATH, and they are all Kings and Priests because they were washed and purged in the blood of Jesus.

Revelation is very DEEP, guessing will not cut it, these codes can be solved with hard work and prayer.

Interesting. Most would agree that they are the redeemed from the Earth/nations since thats what they say when they cast down their crowns before the throne of God. Whether they are all both kings and priests isn't so certain, could it be that 12 are kings and 12 are priests ? Also wasn't the priesthood and its ordinances done away with?

 

[lawrence101]

24 is a symbolic number; since the 24 elders are collected from every tribe, tongue, and nation according to scripture; and there are more than 24 of those in the world.

I believe it represents 12 seats of judgment for the Old Testament and 12 seats of judgment for the New.

Supporting scriptures ?

 

[justbyfaith]

Supporting scriptures ?

Revelation 5:8-9.

 

[Rondonmon]

Interesting. Most would agree that they are the redeemed from the Earth/nations since thats what they say when they cast down their crowns before the throne of God. Whether they are all both kings and priests isn't so certain, could it be that 12 are kings and 12 are priests ? Also wasn't the priesthood and its ordinances done away with?

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God (Gentiles): which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter tells the Gentiles/Church they are now a Royal Priesthood in Christ.

The point is the Church is in Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals in Heaven, just before the Day of the Lord.

 

[studentoftheword]

My view of the 24 elders is this

They represent the Church age ----the Saints --they are part of the Choir in Heaven

Revelation 5 ----gives us the answer on who they are -----

Revelation 5
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[b] on the earth.”

 

[ewq1938]

The point is the Church is in Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals in Heaven, just before the Day of the Lord.

Only those of the church that had died. The church which still is alive is on the Earth and will be targeted for wrath by satan. Much of the church will be killed during that time but Paul tells us some will be alive and remain for the one and only second coming which is after the Great Tribulation has ended.

 

[ewq1938]

The four living creatures also sing that same song.

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[b] on the earth.”

 

[Rondonmon]

Only those of the church that had died. The church which still is alive is on the Earth and will be targeted for wrath by satan. Much of the church will be killed during that time but Paul tells us some will be alive and remain for the one and only second coming which is after the Great Tribulation has ended.

There is no "Second Coming" what is called the Second Coming is really the Second Advent of Jesus, you have a First Advent via the Suffering Servant and a Second Advent via the Conquering King. Now, to be close to right, Jesis would have had t have only ever come unto this earth once. and then a Second Time when he arrives to conquer the Beast and all his minions, but that's not the case. Jesus was the "Man in Linen" in Dan. 12., he was the Rock Israel followed in the wilderness, and he was the I Am that I Am according to Jesus himself. In John 20 Jesus went to heaven to offer the Sacrificial Offering unto the Father, become our once and for all High Priest, then brought the Gift of the Holy Spirit back with him and told Doubting Thomas to stick his fingers/hand into his wounds, after telling Mary not to touch him fir he had not yet ascended unto the Father.

So, the whole "Second Coming" narrative is a myth, it is the Second Advent of Jesus Christ OR his second time living on this earth for any period of time per se, the first time he lived in Satan's domain, the second time Satan will be locked up and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. The Remnant is what those Gentiles, saved AFTER the Rapture are called in Rev. 12:17, thus they are indeed the Remnant Gentile Church. But those seen in Heaven during g the book of REvelation are NEVER those seen on earth during this time, as a matter of fact, those Martyrs/Remnant are the ones who are judged in Rev. 20:4 after Jesus returns and they are the only ones from the whole Church/Remnant Church who stay on earth for Jesus 1000 year reign, Rev. 20:4 clearly says so, THEY live and reign with Jesus 1000 years, ONLY THEY, not the Raptured Church, but only those martyrs from the 70th week.

Most of the Church from the 2000 year Church Period is in Heaven, that includes those were were Alive and Remained at the Pre Trib Rapture that was CHANGED, so they could go to Heaven because Flesh and Blood can not enter Heaven, thus the whole need to be CHANGED, why do these still alive on earth need to be CHANGED to live on this earth? Makes no sense sir. You are all over the place on this stuff.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no "Second Coming" what is called the Second Coming is really the Second Advent of Jesus

That's same thing. There are many ways to say the same thing. You should already have known that and known it was pointless to post this.

 

[Rondonmon]

That's same thing. There are many ways to say the same thing. You should already have known that and known it was pointless to post this.

No, it's very important to show why you cong=fate so many issues brother. You actually think that people will be CHANGED at the Second Advent, that's just not the case, only the Martyrs live for 1000 years with Jesus, now I can see ALL MEN who confessed Jesus having been killed during the tribulation, but when Jesus returns, all men who are still ALIVE will repopulate the earth for the next 1000 years and there will be NO DEATH. All of those who did not come unto Christ before he returns, they will be made to live under Jesus' Iron Rod Rule for 1000 years then be condemned unto hell. So, if Obama makes it through the tribulation(if he doesn't come unto Christ Jesus or ANY MAN), he will be belittled for 1000 years under Jesus' rule. All men will say, look at this man who thought he was so wise, he a nothing, he has to admit he was in error for 1000 years, then the judgment.

So, this whole changing at the Second Advent is just not reality.

 

[ewq1938]

So, this whole changing at the Second Advent is just not reality.

You are blatantly wrong.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

That is when second coming happens. We see there that dead are raised first, then living are changed. Same timeframe and subject here:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

 

[Rondonmon]

You are blatantly wrong.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

All this proves is YOU do not UNDERSTAND the Bible !! You actually conflate (just like I stated above when I had a TYPO that read CONG=FATE, so as I stated you CONFLATE things all of the time and mix up FACTS.

The LAST TRUMP is in Jewish history (in the bible) and is a TRUMP that is the 100th Trump every year at the Feast of Trumps Festival. So, Jesus fulfilled the 1.) Feast of Passover (his blood is our Passover) the Feast of 2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus had NO SIN) and 3.) The Feast of First-fruits (he was the first fruits of the grave).

We the Church are now Fulfilling the Feast of Pentecost or the Church Age where Jesus on Pentecost gave us the Holy Spirit and told us to go forth Harvesting souls. Now, back to the LAST TRUMP, this is where it comes in via the 7 Jewish Feasts. The Jews always sent out two witnesses to look for the New Moon which started the New Year, and it would always occur over a two day period of time thus the imagery Jesus gave us is fast and true, no man can know the exact DAY nor HOUR when Jesus would return for his bride (End the Churh Age Harvest via a TRUMP which Revelation 4:1 says is Jesus' voice). Thus Jesus blows the LAST TRUMP, it is not a Trumpet Judgment which makes absolutely no sense thus it is nonsensical, to say the least.

So, after the witnesses spotted the New Moon they sent word, and the Jewish leaders sent word to BLOW the Trumps 100 times, they blew it in 9 sets off 11 blasts (99 times) then on the 100th Trump or the LAST TRUMP it blew LONGER and LOUDER than the other 99 and this ALWAYS officially ended the Harvest every year (EVERY YEAR). Thus Paul is not speaking about some Judgment Trump (SMH) he is speaking about Jesus sounding as a TRUMP and calling the Church home which will end the Church Age Harvest, thus we fulfill Feast number 4.) The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost or the Church Age Harvest of Souls for Jesus. The LAST TRUMP eds te Harvest and then ANNOUNCES that the Feasts of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle are both nigh at hand. Thus also Fulfills the 5.) Feast of Trumps. Now all that is left is te last two Feasts to be fulfilled.

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who needs to Atone? Israel, and thus after the Church Age the Jews REPENT just before the coming Day of the Lord (Zechariah 13:8-9 and Malachi 4:5-6, this fulfills the Feast of Atonement)

7.) Feast of Tabernacle (The word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, and when Jesus sets up his 1000 year reign in Jerusalem tat seems to me that Israel is DWELLING with God because Jesus is indeed God.)

So, you do understand what the LAST TRUMP is, and that is on you, you should know better. It is YOUR JOB not to be deceived by Satan via HARD WORK Researching, Reading, and Praying etc.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So, Jesus calls John up AFTER Rev. 2 and 3 which represents the Church Age, and thus this TRUMPET Sound represents the Last Trump that ends the Church Age Harvest AND Jesus says I will show you things that must be HEREAFTER (After the Church Age) and you don't get what the LAST TRUMP is !! There is no excuse for that except you aren't putting in the time or when you do hear it you refuse to receive it.

Tighten the ship up man, lockdown the hatches.

 

[ewq1938]

All this proves is YOU do not UNDERSTAND the Bible !!

No, it proves you don't. You don't even understand that a coming is the same as an advent. (not that advent is even found in the bible)

 

[Rondonmon]

No, it proves you don't. You don't even understand that a coming is the same as an advent. (not that advent is even found in the bible)

Niether is the TRINITY, we know what advent means.....

Advent: the arrival of a notable person, thing, or event.

So, are you saying Jesus doesn't return to set up a 1000 year reign as the Lord of lords and King of kings? After first coming as a Suffering Servant whose Sacrifice of his life gave us all life.

Two unique and separate advents.

You quibble because I am correct brother.