Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

The whole lot of them! Here's my list--not in chronological order. And I am odd man out in most of my beliefs, but I comfort myself in the knowledge that out of possibly billions only 8 escaped the world wide flood and only 3 out of the 1000s in Sodom and Gomorrah (some number it upwards of 100,000 or more)

1. As a child Southern Baptist
2. Free Methodist
3. Non-denominational
4. Presbyterian Churches of America
5. Visited Calvary Chapel Churches a few times
6. Evangelical something or other, but more like the Emergent church
7. Church of Christ--not any of the weird ones though did visit the Boston Church of Christ a few times back in the day--they've since changed their name.

Have researched various and sundry churches--looked for a house church to no avail.

ALL without exception have some kind of false doctrine. The nondenoms are fuzzy about what they believe and are holding hands with the world--they don't want to rock the boat--often they have no statement of faith--man focused rather than Christ focused. And the incredible waste of money on the building and programs--a person can attend there for years and never making any true connections--movie trailer sermons, "Tune in next week!" and the next and the next--if you've gone to one nondenom you've pretty much seen them all. Same worship songs, same worship team with the same skinny jeans and untucked plaid shirts and tennis shoes--oh wait that the 60+ year old pastor trying to be hip...ugh and double ugh. It's like the movie Ground Hog Day meets the Twilight Zone....

I found your comment about being the "odd man out" interesting. That's how I mostly feel at church. The more I studied what the Word says the more I find myself at odds with what the majority of the congregation/pastors believe.

When I debate Calvinists on their errors, they call me an Arminian. When I debate Arminians on their errors, they call me a Calvinist.

Just hilarious. They both have such a narrow view of life.

 

[Laura798]

and you gotta know when to fold 'em too.

That is the question, which is the fold and which is the hold! Very difficult in many different ways.

Just go fishing and let it work itself out, is what dad said, lol.

Your dad was a wise man--and I'm sure he said "take along some cracklin' cornbread!
(i looked it up after you wrote about it--sounds yummy)

I hope you didn't mind me posting your pic--there's not many people hanging around this forum, anyhowz--i think at about 1000 posts that would be a good number to wrap it up at...

ps what did you think of your house?

 

[Laura798]

I found your comment about being the "odd man out" interesting. That's how I mostly feel at church. The more I studied what the Word says the more I find myself at odds with what the majority of the congregation/pastors believe.

When I debate Calvinists on their errors, they call me an Arminian. When I debate Arminians on their errors, they call me a Calvinist.

Just hilarious. They both have such a narrow view of life.

Ha, ha!

Well you'd think I'd called Jesus Belzeebub when I said at a women's retreat I didn't believe in once saved always saved--and that's all i ever heard in church. It just didn't seem right to me seeing all the other conflicting verses--and please know i believe we are assured of our salvation as long as we abide in Christ--it's really not that hard--that is once you decide to surrender....

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."--John 15-6

(and there's alot more from where that came from)

 

[Absolutely]

Furthermore--I don't know what angle you think I'm coming from--did you read Matthew 24 that I posted earlier. Clearly I am not a pre-tribber., mid-tribber or any other sort of tribber --God's Word says there's tribulation coming on the earth before Christ's return, then at His return the Judgment, then immediately following that, the wicked and unbelievers along with the destruction of our present heavens and earth-this is His WRATH.

That's the bad news--the good news God's dwelling place will now be with the believers in the New Heavens and New Earth--we will be with Him forever.

PS Furthermore, no one can stand before God and live--that is NO MORTAL Believers cannot ascend to heaven/be in God's presence without their glorified bodies. No one has ascended to heaven and no one ever will--Christ hands over the reign of the kingdom to the Father and He dwells with us in the new paradise."Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinithians 15:24

Iow test fitting gatherings apart from the bible, we end up changing noah and lot who were ACTUALLY gathered prejudgement.

Ay yai yai....
View attachment 233719

All of that is boggus.

All of it

 

[Absolutely]

Charlie, using LOL is disrespectful in the context of a bible forum discussion which I assume are nearly all adults. Furthermore, to say FreeGrace has not given proof is preposterous as they have quoted numerous verses--why don't you compare your response to theirs and see-- I'm really surprised at you. Truly.

NOT A ONE
NOTHING.

SHOW ONE

 

[Absolutely]

Double post

 

[Absolutely]

'

?

I made no reference to either Lot or or Noah--I've simply quoted straightforward scripture.

"33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."--1st Corinthians 14:33

Both are prejudgement dynamics, as depicted by Jesus

 

[Absolutely]

don't bow out until you've seen last pic! at least you could bow out with a chuckle....

A chuckle?
Thats lol.
I thought that was wrong
Just joking dude

 

[Nehemiah6]

But, you know good and well that there is no need for such a verse, since the Bible clearly teaches that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that it will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Do you even know what comprises "the Second Advent" or the Second Coming of Christ? Death and destruction. Wrath and fiery vengeance. No resurrection at that time. Now take a close look at these passages, and then go back to square one.

2 THESSALONIANS 1: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IN FLAMING FIRE
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

REVELATION 1:7: WEEPING AND WAILING AT THE SECOND COMING
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

JUDE 1:14,15: CHRIST COMES TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT UPON ALL
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

REVELATION 19:15-21: THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

REVELATION 14:17-20: A RIVER OF BLOOD 200 MILES LONG & FIVE FEET DEEP
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you even know what comprises "the Second Advent" or the Second Coming of Christ? Death and destruction. Wrath and fiery vengeance. No resurrection at that time.

Of course there is a resurrection at that time.



1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ha, ha!

Well you'd think I'd called Jesus Belzeebub when I said at a women's retreat I didn't believe in once saved always saved--and that's all i ever heard in church. It just didn't seem right to me seeing all the other conflicting verses--and please know i believe we are assured of our salvation as long as we abide in Christ--it's really not that hard--that is once you decide to surrender....

Well.....we're gonna just have to agree to disagree, ma'am.

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."--John 15-6

Abiding is a command for fellowship with the Lord. God never commands people to get or stay saved.

(and there's alot more from where that came from)

I, too, have alot more.

 

[FreeGrace2]

NOT A ONE
NOTHING.

SHOW ONE

I've showed all the verses that PROVE there is just ONE resurrection (where rapture occurs too) and it's post trib.

What have you shown that shows Jesus taking the raptured believers to heaven? huh?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you even know what comprises "the Second Advent" or the Second Coming of Christ?

Is this really a serious question?? There are 2 Advents. The first is when Jesus was born as a human being. The second one (also the last one) is when He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

What's your definition?

Death and destruction. Wrath and fiery vengeance. No resurrection at that time. Now take a close look at these passages, and then go back to square one.

2 THESSALONIANS 1: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IN FLAMING FIRE
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Did you miss the future tense in v.9 about "shall be punished with everlasting destruction"? Why do you try to compress EVERYTHING here into one single event. As if Jesus returns and IMMEDIATELY does all these things.

By reading all of Rev from 19-20 we see what He will do in sequence. Not all at once.

REVELATION 1:7: WEEPING AND WAILING AT THE SECOND COMING
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

JUDE 1:14,15: CHRIST COMES TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT UPON ALL
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

REVELATION 19:15-21: THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

REVELATION 14:17-20: A RIVER OF BLOOD 200 MILES LONG & FIVE FEET DEEP
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You can ball it all up into one silly event, but what is described has sequence to it.

But one needs to read the Bible with open eyes and ears.

 

[Laura798]

Well.....we're gonna just have to agree to disagree, ma'am.


Abiding is a command for fellowship with the Lord. God never commands people to get or stay saved.


I, too, have alot more.

Yes, we all have some points where we disagree theologically on this site--fyi if it were merely fellowship then the one not abiding would not be likened to being thrown into a fire and burned--fire is always used as a symbol of destruction. I am also an annihiliationist, and believe the literal words in scripture that the wicked and the unbeliever will be destroyed, along with the present heavens and earth.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."--Romans 6:23

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, we all have some points where we disagree theologically on this site--fyi if it were merely fellowship then the one not abiding would not be likened to being thrown into a fire and burned--fire is always used as a symbol of destruction.

Actually, not.

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Seems clear from v.13-15 that "fire" is also used for evaluation.

Also, 1 Pet 1:7 - so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Berean Study Bible

I am also an annihiliationist, and believe the literal words in scripture that the wicked and the unbeliever will be destroyed, along with the present heavens and earth.

Yet, Rev 20 clearly says that the two beasts (a/c and false prophet) and Satan will be in the lake of fire for ever and ever, and immediately following that is the GWTJ of v.11-15, where all unbelievers are then cast into the lake of fire.

If God simply causes all unbelievers to cease to exist, that's not too different from the atheist, who doesn't believe in an afterlife.

iow, if one ceases to exist, they cease to experience.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."--Romans 6:23

Death here is spiritual death, or separation from God. Not annihilation.

Again, we disagree.

 

[Laura798]

Actually, not.

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Seems clear from v.13-15 that "fire" is also used for evaluation.

Also, 1 Pet 1:7 - so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Berean Study Bible


Yet, Rev 20 clearly says that the two beasts (a/c and false prophet) and Satan will be in the lake of fire for ever and ever, and immediately following that is the GWTJ of v.11-15, where all unbelievers are then cast into the lake of fire.

If God simply causes all unbelievers to cease to exist, that's not too different from the atheist, who doesn't believe in an afterlife.

iow, if one ceases to exist, they cease to experience.


Death here is spiritual death, or separation from God. Not annihilation.

Again, we disagree.

'Burned' in the context of the verse I quoted means 'destroyed'--it is not referring to refinement. The following verse is in no way ambiguous and states in several different ways that a person can fall away from their secure position in Christ:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame."--Hebrews 6:4-6

Yes we will have to--I see that most of us are determined in what we believe and have been taught; I on the other hand came to my conclusions by studying the word for myself, against what I've been taught. Over and over the bible says the punishment for sin is death and destruction in literal language, yet without exception those who believe in 'eternal conscious torment' always quote the same few figurative verses to support their arguments--nearly exclusively in Revelations which is filled with figurative language--case in point the verses you quoted.

The literal verses vastly out number the figurative ones. Also it brings up a host of theological dilemmas-one that the unbeliever also receives eternal life when the bible clearly states that only believers receive eternal life. The pagans believed that man was immortal, but the scriptures say God alone is immortal. Also, neither Satan nor the demons can burn as they are not made of matter --they obviously don't have pain receptors. It is all figurative.

The church took on the pagan myth of ECT to scare people--but it is the gift of eternal life that we look forward to--it is not the same as atheists as all of humanity clearly fear death!

"They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."--2 Timothy 4:4

ps i use blue and a different font to differentiate between myself and other posters--notice when posting if your font changes as it is confusing to see your comments in the same color and font. /:

 

[FreeGrace2]

'Burned' in the context of the verse I quoted means 'destroyed'--it is not referring to refinement.

1 Cor 3 isn't about "refinement", but rather judging one's works to determine value. Big difference.

The following verse is in no way ambiguous and states in several different ways that a person can fall away from their secure position in Christ:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame."--Hebrews 6:4-6

Yes we will have to--I see that most of us are determined in what we believe and have been taught; I on the other hand came to my conclusions by studying the word for myself, against what I've been taught. Over and over the bible says the punishment for sin is death and destruction in literal language, yet without exception those who believe in 'eternal conscious torment' always quote the same few figurative verses to support their arguments--nearly exclusively in Revelations which is filled with figurative language--case in point the verses you quoted.

There is nothing clear about losing salvation in this passage in Heb 6:4-6. It says such believers will NOT be brought back to repentance. It says nothing about losing salvation.

The literal verses vastly out number the figurative ones.

I don't know what your point is here. Yes, there are many clearly literal verses about warning believers NOT to leave the faith. Yet, NONE of them includes losing salvation.

Also it brings up a host of theological dilemmas-one that the unbeliever also receives eternal life when the bible clearly states that only believers receive eternal life.

One must realize what is included WHEN one believes.

John 5:24 - believers HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. What verse says eternal life can be removed, lost, revoked, etc? None.

Eph 1:13-14 "when one believes" they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Why? For the day of redemption. How does that sound like the possibility ot losing salvation?

And there are no verses that speak of a believer losing the indwelling Holy Spirit. He is given to EVERY NT believer. It is permanent.

The pagans believed that man was immortal, but the scriptures say God alone is immortal. Also, neither Satan nor the demons can burn as they are not made of matter --they obviously don't have pain receptors. It is all figurative.

I disagree. The souls that God creates are permanent. They will exist for eternty. That does not make them "immortal". Only our physical bodies are "mortal".

The church took on the pagan myth of ECT to scare people--but it is the gift of eternal life that we look forward to--it is not the same as atheists as all of humanity clearly fear death!

I already noted WHEN a person possesses eternal life; from John 5:24. When they believe in Christ.

Now consider what Jesus said about those who receive eternal life:

John 10:28 I give them (believers) eternal life and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I'm not shouting with my caps. Only emphasizing what is extremely important. And, yes, I'm also very familiar with v.27. Arminians use that verse as "proof" that the condition for receiving eternal life is to listen to and follow Jesus. But there are NO WORDS in either v.27 or v.28 that turn v.27 into a condition for receiving eternal life. v.27 is a description of what believers do or should do.

 

[Absolutely]

Of course there is a resurrection at that time.



1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Yes i adhere to both of those

They both agree with the pretrib position.
All the dead in christ are resurrected at the rapture.
Amen.

What do you think enters those glorified bodies?
The spirits of those in heaven right now with no bodies.
Jesus brings disembodied saints with him from heaven, to earth, to recieve their bodies...glorified bodies.. but beyond that God is a God purpose. He has purpose in making those inhabitants of Heaven to receive glorified bodies. I firmly believe part of that purpose is ,"eating and drinking in heaven", at the marriage supper, in God the father's house ,vividly Illustrated in the earthly Jewish wedding.

 

[Absolutely]

Do you even know what comprises "the Second Advent" or the Second Coming of Christ? Death and destruction. Wrath and fiery vengeance. No resurrection at that time. Now take a close look at these passages, and then go back to square one.

2 THESSALONIANS 1: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IN FLAMING FIRE
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

REVELATION 1:7: WEEPING AND WAILING AT THE SECOND COMING
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

JUDE 1:14,15: CHRIST COMES TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT UPON ALL
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

REVELATION 19:15-21: THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

REVELATION 14:17-20: A RIVER OF BLOOD 200 MILES LONG & FIVE FEET DEEP
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

On top of that
...the rapture verses are all peacetime with life as normal.

Acts one says " Jesus returns in like manner". Now if we test fit that into the post-trib Rapture model we need about half of the Earth's population destroyed no leaves on any trees, men that have huge lesions all over them, (from taking the mark), plus the Antichrist in power with everything looking like a desolate war Zone. We also would need none of the disciples able to buy or sell anything because they refused the mark which automatically would dictate that everybody would have the mark except those disciples and a handful of Jesus followers. So we begin to see the ridiculousness of some post tribulation rapture, when in fact, the angels said it would be the exact opposite scenery and dynamic.

 

[lamad]

Your problem is taking these "testimonies" at face value. You need to show verses that align with what is being claimed. But of course you can't.

All tha stuff about tables, chairs and name labels are NOT found in the Bible.

It's either hallucinations or dreams.

It is very simple: John shows us that the marriage and supper will be in heaven. When John writes "is come" it means RIGHT THEN, not later and somewhere else.

Question: do you expect to STAND at the marriage supper? Oh, wait: you cannot GET THERE. Forget I ask.