How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Absolutely]

And my apologies if I misunderstood you, but your response sounded as if you were in disagreement with my comment regarding Christ's present reign (post #4256)--in heaven and on earth in the hearts/spirit of the believers.

Jesus is king

 

[GaryA]

Genesis 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, [2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

The daughters of Adam were taken as brides by God's sons, the fallen angels. The fallen angels' marriages with Adam's descendants were so widespread that only one family, Noah's, remained unaffected—but Noah was "perfect" in his generations, according to Genesis 6:9; in other words, he had a pure, uncorrupted lineage. The rest had intermarried with angels, resulting in giants. ….and as we all know, God sent Noah's flood to cleanse the earth of these giants and preserve a pure strain of humanity uncontaminated by the fallen angels.

Have you seen this?

What do you think?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/a-very-interesting-video.202814/

(I don't wish to derail here - please put any comments in that thread instead of this one.)

 

[Charlie24]

Open Book Exam - Church 101

What comprises the Church of Christ?

A.) Believers (phrases such as "when you believed") Ephesians 1:13
B.) Elect (phrases such as "elect according to the foreknowledge of God) 1 Peter 1:2
C.) Saints (phrases such as sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints) 1 Corinthians 1:2
D.) Faith (phrases such as by faith you stand) 2 Corinthians 1:24
E.) Overcome (phrases such as, they overcame him) Revelation 12:11
F.) Testimony (phrases such as, hold fast their testimony about Jesus) Revelation 12:17
G.) ALL of the ABOVE

I said in my original post, nothing is mentioned in the tribulation of the Church.

That would be Rev. 5-19.

You have 2 references to this, both are conjecture and are not the Church (my conjecture) they are the ones saved during the tribulation.

 

[DavidTree]

Have you seen this?

What do you think?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/a-very-interesting-video.202814/

(I don't wish to derail here - please put any comments in that thread instead of this one.)

Gary - the Trees that God created pre-flood grew enourmous and are their stumps are all over the earth in plain sight.
But they are so gigantic that we think they are flat top mountains.

Devils Tower in Wyoming is a pre-flood petrified tree stump - google it

 

[DavidTree]

I said in my original post, nothing is mentioned in the tribulation of the Church.

That would be Rev. 5-19.

You have 2 references to this, both are conjecture and are not the Church (my conjecture) they are the ones saved during the tribulation.

YES, God continues to save up to His Coming and ALL that HE saves are His Church/His Bride/His Elect.

That is why God waits until "After the Tribulation of those days" (Matt ch24) to send the Son.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

 

[GaryA]

#4 i agree, that the word usage "virgin" would seemingly say to us 'saved/salvation

A 'virgin' is an unmarried woman. (overall biblical context)

In-of-itself, the word does not imply nor indicate anything whatsoever to do with salvation.

Anything else associated with the virgins in that passage must come from the context of that passage.

 

[Charlie24]

YES, God continues to save up to His Coming and ALL that HE saves are His Church/His Bride/His Elect.

That is why God waits until "After the Tribulation of those days" (Matt ch24) to send the Son.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Can I get a "ok Charlie we are both assuming to fill in the blanks of what we believe?"

 

[Mem]

Peeeeride... Yes , that was a typo but I left it as is because then again.... maybe it wasn't. Besides the initial letters causing me to think of that all too familiar contest, you know the one, it also caused me to take a second look and think of peer pride as I continued to write it out. A sort of faithful 'I've got your back no matter what" sort of sentiment is commendable. That is except, of course, when it progresses to a loyalty to a fault. There seems to've been a better phrase that I've heard express it better, but I can't recall it at the moment.... OH yea~ anyway, What I was thinking in the first place was that pride gets in the way of... Oh dear... I forget what I was thinking now... I'll have to repost when it comes back to me. I'm sure something will bring the thought back.
It was something Kierkegaard said, "the crowd is error."

So, just be careful sticking too closely to the crowd, none of them will be there when each of us stand before Him, face to face.

Matthew 24 is referring to this same prophecy in Zechariah 14. Read the whole chapters! It is CLEAR they are speaking about the same thing. It is in the isolation of verses that false doctrine originates--the books of the bible never had chapters and verses until the 16th century.

Zechariah 14

14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

Matthew 24 (know this--Christ is coming suddenly, but not secretly--and the taken are compared to those 'taken' in the flood)

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins

...'when the flood came and 'took' them all away...and so it will be in the end... one is 'taken'... that's apple to apple right there. Yet the crowd persists that it is apple to orange.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I started out intending to write a meme something like, "If anything gets in the way of instruction, it is pride because if learning requires anything, it requires humility. Teaching is easy. It's actually outstructing, basically, but there is a tendancy to resist in allowing ourselves to be instructed, and end up obstructing the Truth.

 

[DavidTree]

A 'virgin' is an unmarried woman. (overall biblical context)

In-of-itself, the word does not imply nor indicate anything whatsoever to do with salvation.

Anything else associated with the virgins in that passage must come from the context of that passage.

And Matt 25:1-13 is a parable as well.

I use to strongly believe the term 'virgin' meant they were saved but now i tend towards 1 John 2:18-19

 

[DavidTree]

Can I get a "ok Charlie we are both assuming to fill in the blanks of what we believe?"

i am looking directly at Scripture without 'gaps'

However, when i come across a gap i can let you know and if you see a gap let me know.

 

[GaryA]

The difference as I see it is that these in 1 John have not been called saved as the "virgins" were.

Where exactly were the "virgins" indicated as being saved?

 

[walknlight]

No.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him: Paul is obviously addressing questions raised by his first letter, where he instructed the Thessalonians about the catching away of the church to be with Jesus (1Th 4:16-18).

i. The challenge in understanding this chapter comes from the fact that it is a supplement to what Paul has already taught them in words, and we don't know exactly what Paul said to the Thessalonians. Yet the ideas are clear enough if carefully pieced together.

b. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and also our gathering together to Him: Paul obviously wrote of the return of Jesus, but the wording here implies a difference between the coming and our gathering . This strongly suggests that there are essentially two comings of Jesus. One coming is for His church (as described clearly in 1Th 4:16-18), and the other coming is with His church, to judge a rebellious world.
i. "They are two parts of one great event." (Morris)
ii. Hiebert shows how the grammar of the ancient Greek in 2Th 2:1 shows this: "The government of the two nouns under one article makes it clear that one event, viewed under two complimentary aspects, is thought of."
iii. This is completely consistent with other passages of Scripture that indicate that there must be two aspects of Jesus' second coming, and the aspects must be separated by some appreciable period of time.
Different world conditions are described (Mat 24:37-42, Mat 24:21, Rev 6:15-16).
Different approaches of Christ to the earth are described (1Th 4:16-17, Rev 19:11, 14-15, 21).
Different scenarios regarding the predictability of the date of Jesus' return are established (Mat 24:36, Dan 12:11). " Guzik

 

[Charlie24]

i am looking directly at Scripture without 'gaps'

However, when i come across a gap i can let you know and if you see a gap let me know.

You filled in a huge gap when you assumed, I said assumed that was the Church in those 2 verses of Rev.

 

[GaryA]

I would say the symbol of salvation is revealed in the word "virgin."

Why would you say this?

 

[DavidTree]

You filled in a huge gap when you assumed, I said assumed that was the Church in those 2 verses of Rev.

His Saints are throughout Revelation, from beginning to end.

Use Post #4,499 to see the Church from Revelation chapter 1 thru to chapter 22

Why does Revelation chapter 1 start with Christ saying "I am the Alpha an dthe Omega"

and then HE says the same thing in Rev chapter 22 - WHY???

 

[Charlie24]

Where exactly were the "virgins" indicated as being saved?

The scripture uses the word "virgin" as being pure. It means pure as in righteousness.

Here is an example in 2 Cor. 11:2

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According to your 'foggy' calculations (you guys are real smart) you need to add up every time in Scripture we read:
"His coming" + "the Coming of the Lord" + "His Appearing" + "when He Appears" + "Our Gathering" + "Resurrection of the Dead"
+ "caught up" then multiply by 2 for "Second Appearing" then subtract for "Left Behind" and then multiply by 10 for Tribulation Saints.

GENIUS frowns where Simplicity abounds as Wisdom and Knowledge put on their Wedding Gowns

Well, for one thing... as many times as it has been pointed out to you that the word "APPEAR [G3708 (passive)]" (re: Jesus) in Hebrews 9:28 ('a second time apart from sin SHALL APPEAR') is the same exact word used regarding when Jesus "appeared" unto Paul when Paul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus WAS IN HEAVEN already, at that point (so He "appeared" to Paul in His exaltation [i.e. FROM HIS POSITION *UP THERE*])... you continually disregard this fact and continue to insist instead that this Heb9:28 *must* refer to whatever it is you *think* it refers to [i.e. His bodily physical RETURN to the earth at Rev19 (what you're labeling the rapture time-slot)], instead of something else (that may not require His physical presence on [or "coming to"] the earth, just as it didn't when He "appeared" unto Paul on the road to Damascus, while He was UP THERE). Is that not "simple" enough??





[note to readers: recall the study I mentioned about Paul being a "TYPE" of the future "144,000" who will exist in/during the future 7 year tribulation period / 70th Week / the 2520 days LEADING UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19]

 

[GaryA]

Aren't you glad it said "2 will be in a bed, one taken, one left".

I will be glad if it is a man and a woman...

 

[Charlie24]

His Saints are throughout Revelation, from beginning to end.

Use Post #4,499 to see the Church from Revelation chapter 1 thru to chapter 22

Not the Church saints, my friend! The saints mentioned in the Rev. account of the tribulation are the ones saved DURING the tribulation.

Now I will say something that you won't, that is my opinion!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT to ADD to my previous post (re: same "appear [G3708 (passive)]" word used in both Heb9:28 and in Acts about when Jesus "appeared" to Paul... ),

Jesus "appeared" unto Paul when Paul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus WAS IN HEAVEN already, at that point (so He "appeared" to Paul in His exaltation [i.e. FROM HIS POSITION *UP THERE*])

This IS "simple"... a simple FACT. ( @DavidTree continued from my previous post)