How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Runningman]

AWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEE just like liberal progressive, Socialists we can't win via the facts so lets try to take the focus off he facts. In have been a Prophecy called Preacher for 35 years, I don't get my orders from you, what these sophomoric gestures always shows me is someone who seems to be trained in Alinsky tactics, and he has openly stated those tactics came from Satan. Guilt trip 101 fails every time here bud, grow up and stop living the modern age cry baby world.


As I glanced below, (above here but below the post I am now replying to, I see AB said the same thing, it was Alinsky like tactics, I only saw that after I wrote the above, so maybe you might want to check out the "12 Rules for Radicals" you seem to have those traits, maybe you were brainwashed in school and didn't realize it.



So, I read in sections, and you literally said nothing, because I DESTROYED your thesis, you put forth nonsensical drivel and try to attack, which never works on me, it makes me see you for what you are. Now run and hide again.

Please don’t claim to be a prophet anymore. From what I see here, your behavior is repulsive and unChristian. Non-Christians occasionally read these forums, I’m sure, and I don’t want them to reject Christ because of you.

I feel led to throw a word of caution to the wind; people like you don’t represent Christianity. Most of us are better than this and are respectful to one another even when there are disagreements over doctrine.

 

[VARob]

Good Morning Friend,

We may be brothers in Christ, but as to whether I'm your friend or not remains to be seen.

Just a little info on me, i do not like to say much but let the Scripture do the Speaking = i am abrupt = forgive my abruptness.

I've seen you say a lot... And for the record, I tend to be abrupt too.

1.) Emphasis on Ecclesiastes is accurate and true: Do not use isolated scripture written BEFORE the first Coming of Christ to override the actual words, teachings and commandments of Christ.

Jesus Christ did not change the meaning of death, he came to deliver us from death.

2.) Also, teachings, and instruction from the Apostles writings/letters will clarify the limited OT writings and understanding.

Agreed.

3.) Genesis is the foundation for ALL Scripture that was to follow.

Scripture is scripture.

4.) ALL scriptural references to Sleeping in the Dust, Earth, Grave only pertains to the physical bodies of those who died in the LORD.

That's false. When a person dies, the person is dead, not just his body.

This is made CLEAR by Scripture Itself as Scripture denotes the exact location of where ALL physical bodies of man return to.

GENESIS 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground—because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.”

Note it says "you", not just your body.

Solomon who wrote Ecclesiates had limited knowledge and so he asked a question - Ecc 3:21

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

God remembers people who die, and will resurrect everyone, some will be given everlasting life, and some will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Solomon could not comprehend life beyond the grave, this understanding was hidden from him.

Where does the Bible say Solomon did not understand death? Or Isaiah, Ezekiel, or Daniel?

UPDATE your spirit, soul, mind/heart on the Wisdom of God

The wisdom of God is for people to get saved, so that if they die, they will be resurrected to everlasting life.

Luke 11:31

The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here.

Jesus Christ is certainly greater than Solomon. What's your point?

Dead people are not alive. Death is death, not a "separation", unless it's understood that it's a separation from life.

 

[Absolutely]

Hello again...good morning

Question 1
Why are you on the attack?

Question 2
Are you saying that the donkey did or didn't talk?


God Bless!

2 verses in rev were brought to her attention that anahilate soul sleep.
So she poo pooed the book of rev.

Right now she is backing up.

 

[Absolutely]

To you it is heretical. It agrees with the scriptures.


Luke 16:19ff is a parable. By Jesus' time, the Jews had adopted the Greek belief that the soul is immortal. It's not. Death means death. Jesus "met them where they were", so-to speak. The point of the parable is in verse 31.

Several posts ago you made some disparaging comments about the book of Ecclesiastes. You apparently do not think it is God-breathed? I do. If you're going to reject Ecclesiastes because it was written by Solomon, do you also reject the book of Proverbs? Ecc. contains some important statements about death. When a person dies, they don't know anything (Ecc 9:5), their emotions have perished (Ecc 9:6), and points out that there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave (Ecc 9:10). Also note that it says the grave is where YOU go, not just your body.

And if you're not going to believe Solomon, how about David?

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ps 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Ps 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ps 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Or how about Isaiah?

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ezekiel?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Daniel?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's unfortunate that many Christians ignorantly believe the first lie the devil told Eve: "you will NOT surely die".

To you it is heretical. It agrees with the scriptures.


Luke 16:19ff is a parable. By Jesus' time, the Jews had adopted the Greek belief that the soul is immortal. It's not. Death means death. Jesus "met them where they were", so-to speak. The point of the parable is in verse 31.

Several posts ago you made some disparaging comments about the book of Ecclesiastes. You apparently do not think it is God-breathed? I do. If you're going to reject Ecclesiastes because it was written by Solomon, do you also reject the book of Proverbs? Ecc. contains some important statements about death. When a person dies, they don't know anything (Ecc 9:5), their emotions have perished (Ecc 9:6), and points out that there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave (Ecc 9:10). Also note that it says the grave is where YOU go, not just your body.

And if you're not going to believe Solomon, how about David?

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ps 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Ps 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ps 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Or how about Isaiah?

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ezekiel?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Daniel?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's unfortunate that many Christians ignorantly believe the first lie the devil told Eve: "you will NOT surely die".

Nope.
Not true

 

[VARob]

Nope.
Not true

The Bible is not true? I think it is...

 

[Absolutely]

The Bible is not true? I think it is...

Nope
Wrong answer

 

[DavidTree]

We may be brothers in Christ, but as to whether I'm your friend or not remains to be seen.


I've seen you say a lot... And for the record, I tend to be abrupt too.


Jesus Christ did not change the meaning of death, he came to deliver us from death.


Agreed.


Scripture is scripture.


That's false. When a person dies, the person is dead, not just his body.


Note it says "you", not just your body.


Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

God remembers people who die, and will resurrect everyone, some will be given everlasting life, and some will be destroyed in the lake of fire.


Where does the Bible say Solomon did not understand death? Or Isaiah, Ezekiel, or Daniel?


The wisdom of God is for people to get saved, so that if they die, they will be resurrected to everlasting life.


Jesus Christ is certainly greater than Solomon. What's your point?

Dead people are not alive. Death is death, not a "separation", unless it's understood that it's a separation from life.

CORRECTION: You have not seen me say a lot but you have seen my many Posts which are predominantly Scripture.

You said: "Jesus Christ is certainly greater than Solomon. What's your point?"

Solomon himself declared he did not know what occurs after death = Ecc 3:21

The LORD declares HE knows all things Eternal as HE is the Eternal One. Luke 11:31 , John 6:62 , John 17:5

JESUS is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End = All things were created by Him and for Him - AMEN

Physical death is the separation of a man's soul from his physical body.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable and if you argue that it is then you argue against the Lord Jesus Christ and in so doing you seek to establish your own version of truth which is no longer the Truth.

This is a very brief but sufficient response to the error of 'soul sleep' and the imposing of unbelief upon the word's of Christ.

Since you hold Ecclesiastes is high esteem then you should fully embrace these words:

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[VARob]

Physical death is the separation of a man's soul from his physical body.

That is a common, but erroneous understanding of death.

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The person doesn't. The person, all of him, is dead. A dead person cannot think, reason, work, experience emotion, or praise God. He is dead.

 

[DavidTree]

That is a common, but erroneous understanding of death.


The person doesn't. The person, all of him, is dead. A dead person cannot think, reason, work, experience emotion, or praise God. He is dead.

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

 

[VARob]

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

The context is resurrection. God will raise dead people to life.

 

[DavidTree]

The context is resurrection. God will raise dead people to life.

The Truth is that GOD will raise the Living in the Resurrection - but you cannot see that.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

 

[VARob]

The Truth is that GOD will raise the Living in the Resurrection - but you cannot see that.

If they're living, they won't need to be resurrected - but you cannot see that.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the rapture (pre-trib, btw...) dead Christians will be raised from the dead, and Christians who are living will be changed.

 

[VARob]

The Truth is that GOD will raise the Living in the Resurrection - but you cannot see that.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Yes. Again, the context is resurrection.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

It's not saying the dead will descend from heaven with Jesus, but that God will bring the dead who are currently in the grave along with Jesus when he comes to gather the Christian church. IOW, the dead will not be left behind.

 

[DavidTree]

If they're living, they won't need to be resurrected - but you cannot see that.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the rapture (pre-trib, btw...) dead Christians will be raised from the dead, and Christians who are living will be changed.

The Living are with Christ right now and HE will bring the Living with Him for the Resurrection of their Dead Bodies which Sleep in the dust of the earth.

But you cannot see thru unbelief.

 

[VARob]

The Living are with Christ right now

No, the living are alive here on earth right now.

and HE will bring the Living with Him for the Resurrection of their Dead Bodies which Sleep in the dust of the earth.

You're repeating your error. ..can't help that.

But you cannot see thru unbelief.

Sorry to break it to you, David, but disagreeing with your misunderstanding of death is not unbelief.

It's like I mentioned to Laura last night... People rarely change their mind. They just dig in their heels and continue to believe what they believe, and accuse the other person of heresy, misunderstanding the Bible, or unbelief.

 

[DavidTree]

No, the living are alive here on earth right now.


You're repeating your error. ..can't help that.


Sorry to break it to you, David, but disagreeing with your misunderstanding of death is not unbelief.

It's like I mentioned to Laura last night... People rarely change their mind. They just dig in their heels and continue to believe what they believe, and accuse the other person of heresy, misunderstanding the Bible, or unbelief.

Just like you are doing now, by rejecting the words of Christ who says: "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the Living."

Like i said to you before, you hold unto heretical teaching that is contrary to the word's of Christ and the Apostles.

What is you religion? jehovah witness, Mormon, 7th Day Adventists.................???

 

[VARob]

Just like you are doing now, by rejecting the words of Christ

I don't reject the words of Christ.

who says: "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the Living."

One more time, the context is resurrection.

Like i said to you before, you hold unto heretical teaching that is contrary to the word's of Christ and the Apostles.

See previous post.

What is you religion? jehovah witness, Mormon, 7th Day Adventists.................???

Christian.

 

[Absolutely]

That is a common, but erroneous understanding of death.


The person doesn't. The person, all of him, is dead. A dead person cannot think, reason, work, experience emotion, or praise God. He is dead.

The rich man and lazarus?
The martyrs under the throne?
The 24 elders?
The thief continuing with Jesus to paradise.

And who did Jesus preach to while his body was in the tomb?
....as well as their bodies being in graves?

 

[DavidTree]

I don't reject the words of Christ.


One more time, the context is resurrection.


See previous post.


Christian.

Should a christian reject Christ? The Lord Jesus Christ said God is not the God of the dead but of the Living.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

The spirit of antichrist denies the word's of Christ and the Truth that HE gives eternal life to those who belong to Him.

 

[Absolutely]

To you it is heretical. It agrees with the scriptures.


Luke 16:19ff is a parable. By Jesus' time, the Jews had adopted the Greek belief that the soul is immortal. It's not. Death means death. Jesus "met them where they were", so-to speak. The point of the parable is in verse 31.

Several posts ago you made some disparaging comments about the book of Ecclesiastes. You apparently do not think it is God-breathed? I do. If you're going to reject Ecclesiastes because it was written by Solomon, do you also reject the book of Proverbs? Ecc. contains some important statements about death. When a person dies, they don't know anything (Ecc 9:5), their emotions have perished (Ecc 9:6), and points out that there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave (Ecc 9:10). Also note that it says the grave is where YOU go, not just your body.

And if you're not going to believe Solomon, how about David?

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ps 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Ps 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ps 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Or how about Isaiah?

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ezekiel?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Daniel?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's unfortunate that many Christians ignorantly believe the first lie the devil told Eve: "you will NOT surely die".

Rich man and lazarus is not a parable